Evaluating judging trends: A study on GPF

[Watermelondrea]

So as we all know, in this sport, and really every other subjective sport, there are always some unfair results.

Now, before I say what I say: I want you all to know that I am a huge supporter of EVERY skater, and of course I have my favorites (who doesn't), like Ashley Wagner, a lot of the Japanese skaters, and pretty much every Russian skater.

Incidents like the Olympics made me pretty upset, but I overlooked it because it was the Olympics, in Russia, with Putin in the house. What could you expect? It was understandable.

What about last year? Especially during the Europeans. No way Liza or Lena deserve PCS over 66, yet they got them. But soon I realized, these ladies are by FAR the top 2 in the world, so eh, it's okay for a stretch.

But the 2015 GPF, oh my goodness, no. Absolutely, no, I couldn't take it. My favorites Ashley and the Russians, even still I couldn't handle there scores.

I'm sorry, but since when can Satoko get a TES of 70+? How can Medvedeva and Ashley get 70+PCS? I'm sorry, and although they all have FANTASTIC qualities, those programs are nowhere NEAR worth those scores. Don't even start me on Gracie.

Let's discuss men, shall we? Tell me how Yuzuru get's almost max PCS when he legit has no choreography? The emotion he shows is nothing but fatigue showing after his uber difficult program (props to that), but comparing his last two programs, I see literally no difference. No difference in construction, no difference in choreography, no difference at all. OR Javier. I'm sorry, but wiggling your arms a bunch of times isn't choreography. How he beat CHAN in PCS, I'll never understand. And now we are beginning to see the problem with this system.

Now judges are beginning to reward 200+'s everyhwere for ladies. Last year, I believe maybe 3-4 broke it? I remember when it used to be special, now it's like everyday judges wanna throw it all to everyone.

And for the men, they are going to start handing out 300+'s to everyone. How did JAVI manage it? That SP was atrocious, that LP isn't all that great either.

We need to let the ISU hear our voices and realize that this judging system has run it's course and it's time to introduce a new one. I know it seems like I'm ranting, but I'd really appreciate everyone's opinions (in a nice manner of course, we're all in this together

 

[andromache]

PCS are like points on Whose Line is it Anyway. "It's all made up and the points don't matter." Seriously. As long as the results turn out right, which (IMO) they have all season. For the most PCS just rank the skaters, but the numbers don't actually mean anything. The ladies PCS currently are probably too high relative to their predecessors, but the highest scores in PCS in the LP went to Ashley and Evgenia, who were both indeed the best of the competition. The lowest PCS went to Gracie, who was the worst. Then Elena, Satoko, and Mao were in the middle for pretty average performances (although Mao's performance was below average, she didn't get the LOWEST PCS because, well, she's Mao and obviously superior generally).

 

[AprilS]

So as we all know, in this sport, and really every other subjective sport, there are always some unfair results.

Now, before I say what I say: I want you all to know that I am a huge supporter of EVERY skater, and of course I have my favorites (who doesn't), like Ashley Wagner, a lot of the Japanese skaters, and pretty much every Russian skater.

Incidents like the Olympics made me pretty upset, but I overlooked it because it was the Olympics, in Russia, with Putin in the house. What could you expect? It was understandable.

What about last year? Especially during the Europeans. No way Liza or Lena deserve PCS over 66, yet they got them. But soon I realized, these ladies are by FAR the top 2 in the world, so eh, it's okay for a stretch.

But the 2015 GPF, oh my goodness, no. Absolutely, no, I couldn't take it. My favorites Ashley and the Russians, even still I couldn't handle there scores.

I'm sorry, but since when can Satoko get a TES of 70+? How can Medvedeva and Ashley get 70+PCS? I'm sorry, and although they all have FANTASTIC qualities, those programs are nowhere NEAR worth those scores. Don't even start me on Gracie.

Let's discuss men, shall we? Tell me how Yuzuru get's almost max PCS when he legit has no choreography? The emotion he shows is nothing but fatigue showing after his uber difficult program (props to that), but comparing his last two programs, I see literally no difference. No difference in construction, no difference in choreography, no difference at all. OR Javier. I'm sorry, but wiggling your arms a bunch of times isn't choreography. How he beat CHAN in PCS, I'll never understand. And now we are beginning to see the problem with this system.

Now judges are beginning to reward 200+'s everyhwere for ladies. Last year, I believe maybe 3-4 broke it? I remember when it used to be special, now it's like everyday judges wanna throw it all to everyone.

And for the men, they are going to start handing out 300+'s to everyone. How did JAVI manage it? That SP was atrocious, that LP isn't all that great either.

We need to let the ISU hear our voices and realize that this judging system has run it's course and it's time to introduce a new one. I know it seems like I'm ranting, but I'd really appreciate everyone's opinions (in a nice manner of course, we're all in this together

I wholeheartedly disagree with about 80-90% of what is written here. Thanks.

 

[padme21]

First neither Hanyu nor Fernandez were over scored they earned every single one of those points! Second I think you're really overreacting. "Hanyu has no legit choreography" are you serious! His Seimei program was a choreographed masterpiece! Javier did more than just wiggle his arms around. His guys and dolls program was brilliant! It seems to me that the only reason you're upset about the men's scores is because you're favorite didn't win.

 

[Interspectator]

I agree with needing to do something about over-scoring for ALL skaters including my favorites...but totally disagree about your opinions about Yuzu's programs Choreography and Emotion. And we will leave it at that because I understand that opinions will always differ on what touches the heart and what is considered good choreography.

 

[qwertyskates]

I agree with needing to do something about over-scoring for ALL skaters including my favorites...but totally disagree about your opinions about Yuzu's programs Choreography and Emotion. And we will leave it at that because I understand that opinions will always differ on what touches the heart and what is considered good choreography.

I second this....everyone received SBs like free candy....:noshake: ..with many having skated worse here than at the other GPs. These are Olympic winners' PCSs, especially true for the ladies.

 

[MiRé]

A sport can never be fair when it's judged subjectively

 

[whatif]

What does it even mean "overscoring"? According to whom?

Arguably, this has been probably one of the most remarkable Grand Prix seasons in modern history. This sport is finally starting to look like a competition with a vast variety of skilled athletes pushing each other in every discipline. Can't we just be happy? instead of worrying that these new generation skaters can possibly score more than the "ghosts of forgotten past".

 

[Interspectator]

If we are going into detail, I think Yuzu was scored correctly for his SP. He did visibly better at GPF than he did at NHK.
In the LP I think his 4t-3t could have gotten a +1 instead of nearly +2, but the other jumps were great and he IMPROVED his ending lutz and landed it with a flourish that wasn't there at NHK. He was more committed to the choreography and the steps in GPF, so I'd give him about the same score as NHK. Still HUUUGE.

 

[padme21]

I wholeheartedly disagree with about 80-90% of what is written here. Thanks.

I agree with needing to do something about over-scoring for ALL skaters including my favorites...but totally disagree about your opinions about Yuzu's programs Choreography and Emotion. And we will leave it at that because I understand that opinions will always differ on what touches the heart and what is considered good choreography.

What does it even mean "overscoring"? According to whom?

Arguably, this has been probably one of the most remarkable Grand Prix seasons in modern history. This sport is finally starting to look like a competition with a vast variety of skilled athletes pushing each other in every discipline. Can't we just be happy? instead of worrying that these new generation skaters can possibly score more than the "ghosts of forgotten past".

Thank you! Great point this years GPF was a historical event in figure skating history! We should be celebrating!

 

[qwertyskates]

I understand a few men's TES went up and judges might get over excited but what was so wonderful about ladies' or pairs? SBs even with flaws?

 

[Meoima]

Whole post

Lolll to the whole post, do you mind explaining to me what is "choreography" by your definition? In short, do you understand what is choreography on ice at all?
Only by then, we will talk. Lol and I am pretty much not satisfied with PCS but to call top skaters having no choreography is, sorry, so ignorant.

 

[MaxSwagg]

What difference does it make with Yuzuru? Give him 90 PCS and he still wold've won by almost 30 points. You could've given him the lowest components of all 6 men (say 70) and he still would've won by almost 10 points. He's not a good example to use as of late.

 

[yuzushenko]

If we are going into detail, I think Yuzu was scored correctly for his SP. He did visibly better at GPF than he did at NHK.
In the LP I think his 4t-3t could have gotten a +1 instead of nearly +2, but the other jumps were great and he IMPROVED his ending lutz and landed it with a flourish that wasn't there at NHK. He was more committed to the choreography and the steps in GPF, so I'd give him about the same score as NHK. Still HUUUGE.

i agree with you
i think his SP in GPF was much better than at NHK. he added back some choreography in between the 4S and 4T for the GPF. in NHK it felt more like he was prepping and compared to his past set up, he took out choreography after his first jump. plus i felt like he had a better interpretation at GPF. more serious, more strong movements, less general concentration.

but i think his FS was weaker. his 3A-2T received nearly all 3s (one 2) even though he quite obviously (without slowmo) buckled his ankles when he landed the toe. it was very obvious. even if the rest of the combination was great, i dont think a visual 'mistake' like that should be given a 3 for perfect. a 2 or 1 i think would be best.
his 4T-3T did seem a bit smaller here, but i liked it more than in NHK because in NHK his axis on the 3T started to tilt straight but he still managed to land it nicely. also you can see his ankles buckle a bit at the end of the toe. but not as noticeable as the double toe was to me.
also his first spin combo in the GPF FS seemed slower than in NHK. specifically the biellman part. same with the pancake spin he does before the choreographic sequence at the end. seemed slower than NHK.
but i do prefer his interpretation in GPF than NHK. in NHK he fist pumped after the lutz, which i dont blame him of course lol. but i loved how focus he remained in the GPF version, and his movements seemed much more powerful too, specifically in his choreographic sequence.


i think the spins should have had a lower GOE this time around. and the combos where he buckled.

 

[Ophelia]

Let's discuss men, shall we? Tell me how Yuzuru get's almost max PCS when he legit has no choreography? The emotion he shows is nothing but fatigue showing after his uber difficult program (props to that), but comparing his last two programs, I see literally no difference. No difference in construction, no difference in choreography, no difference at all. OR Javier. I'm sorry, but wiggling your arms a bunch of times isn't choreography. How he beat CHAN in PCS, I'll never understand. And now we are beginning to see the problem with this system.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/e430c7f81ce3fa67d2185c850d96447b/tumblr_muvpsowXM11sl5axpo1_500.gif

 

[Watermelondrea]

I mean I guess you aren't wrong on some parts but you certainly aren't correct on most parts. But I agree on the Satoko and a little about the Yuzu part. Sorry your favorites didn't win, but you do seem a little butthurt.

 

[oriquey]

While I agree with some of the issues you have raised, however, I have to disagree on what you've commented on Javi and Yuzuru. Yuzuru's Chopin SP is minimalist, but I wouldn't say it doesn't have choreography. It is very nuanced; I see it as a gradual transition from subtlety to madness. I think if the programme had more movements, it will be too "busy" and would detract from the overall effect. And Javi specifically went to Antonio Najarro for choreography because he wanted his SP to be as authentic as possible. Those arm movements are beautiful and fit the music. Also, both these skaters have so many transitions and intricate footwork in their programmes so I think it is unfair to dismiss them as you've done.

 

[Ladskater]

First neither Hanyu nor Fernandez were over scored they earned every single one of those points! Second I think you're really overreacting. "Hanyu has no legit choreography" are you serious! His Seimei program was a choreographed masterpiece! Javier did more than just wiggle his arms around. His guys and dolls program was brilliant! It seems to me that the only reason you're upset about the men's scores is because you're favorite didn't win.

Hanyu's program is brilliant - choreographed by Shae-Lynn Bourne - who else? It's perfect for him.

 

[penguin]

I choose to look at scoring a different way. As an example, I don't think of a score from 5-10 years ago as the "proper" marker of what a 70-point ladies short program should be (or a 90-point men's short, or whatever), and today's programs failing to adhere to that standard. Scoring evolves, scores change. I think of it more like 70 points meaning a certain level back then, and 70 points meaning something differently now. Just like you can't compare a 6.0 program from 1980 against one from 1990 and expect the same kind of skating in both. As mentioned above, as long as scoring is applied consistently within competitions, I'm okay with the results.

 

[Silvia451]

How did JAVI manage it? That SP was atrocious

Sorry but this is the point where I stopped reading the whole thing.
It is your opinion and all I can say is that I have a different opinion.