Extended lifts at JW

[gsk8]

I'm enjoying a little time off before WTT. I've been rewatching some of the wonderful free dances from JW

One thing that left me a bit boggled in the combination lifts for the Canadian and British teams:

I noted that the team from CAN had what looked just a tad longer than the 12-second rule. So I timed it and came up with roughly12:26 (could be off, of course). Not a big deal and they didn't get dinged for it. But then I watched the team from GBR and saw they received a deduction for an extended lift. I timed it at roughly 11:76? I queued both links right before the lift. Of course I'm no expert nor a referee, but... @dorispulaski? Input?

I delved in because both teams were so close in points. That one-point deduction cost the Brits the bronze.

Still, absolutely gorgeous routines from both teams!

Only five teams had a combination lift of the 19 competitors.

So much potential, and the Czechs and South Koreans were so nice to watch! I'm looking forward to watching them all grow

 

[dorispulaski]

From the Handbook for Referees and Judges 2022/2024

https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules/id-handbooks-faq/29623-handbook-for-referees-and-judges-2022-23/file

The lifts should be timed with the stopwatch during the performance as it has been done so far and then if there is a lift that is over the permitted time, the Referee must check it on his screen after conclusion of the program and that becomes the official time. If the times are recorded, then a note is made that the lift was electronically checked and the deduction is applied automatically by the computer

So if the referee does not call out a slightly over-long lift during the program, it will not be reviewed, and there will be no deduction.

However, if the referee does flag a lift using the stopwatch during the program, after the skate, the length of the lift is remeasured by the referee, using the video.

Since timing from the video is the official time, I can't say why your results are different than the referee's.

However, the time starts when the last part of the lifted partner's skate leaves the ice and ends when their skate first touched the ice again. If the toe touches first, that touch would be the end of the lift.

That can be tricky to detect.

The referee at this event was Ms. Rossella CECCATTINI.The rest of the technical panel was Lauren Senft (Canada), Judy Blumberg (USA)=and Hilary Selby (GBR).

 

[4everchan]

From the Handbook for Referees and Judges 2022/2024

https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules/id-handbooks-faq/29623-handbook-for-referees-and-judges-2022-23/file

So if the referee does not call out a slightly over-long lift during the program, it will not be reviewed, and there will be no deduction.

However, if the referee does flag a lift using the stopwatch during the program, after the skate, the length of the lift is remeasured by the referee, using the video.

Since timing from the video is the official time, I can't say why your results are different than the referee's.

However, the time starts when the last part of the lifted partner's skate leaves the ice and ends when their skate first touched the ice again. If the toe touches first, that touch would be the end of the lift.

That can be tricky to detect.

The referee at this event was Ms. Rossella CECCATTINI.The rest of the technical panel was Lauren Senft (Canada), Judy Blumberg (USA)=and Hilary Selby (GBR).

Thank you for the explanation. It's great they are using the video replay for the lifts when reviewed. Of course, they should just do it all the time for all teams, so that would fix the issue. In real time, the stop-watch, even if your name is Babs, is bound to give imprecise results. We are talking about extremely minute time intervals (fractions of seconds below or above the 12 seconds). It's for good reason that many sports use the photo-finish to get official race times : hundreds of a second are not perceptible accurately by most humans..

This is bringing up the debate again about the use of technology in judging figure skating. It may be one day, that reviewing can be done quickly and in real time by "the machines" to provide judges and the tech panel with more solid information, not just for lifts, but for rotation for instance.

 

[SnowWhite]

Since timing from the video is the official time, I can't say why your results are different than the referee's.

However, the time starts when the last part of the lifted partner's skate leaves the ice and ends when their skate first touched the ice again. If the toe touches first, that touch would be the end of the lift.

That can be tricky to detect.

The referee at this event was Ms. Rossella CECCATTINI. The rest of the technical panel was Lauren Senft (Canada), Judy Blumberg (USA) and Hilary Selby (GBR).

This is the key part. In Bashynska/Beaumont's combination lift, she touches her foot down at the end of the lift, then he spins her and she lifts it again before going back down and fully exiting (not sure I'm explaining that well, but you can see it in the video). That first touch is when the time for the lift officially stops, and it's under 12 seconds when I time it. So it doesn't matter that it's over 12 seconds when she touches down the 2nd time, because the lift has already ended with the first touch.

Personally, when I time Bekker/Hernandez myself, I have them over 12 seconds when her foot first touches down. So in line with what the deductions were. @gsk8 I don't know about B/H (I get over 12 seconds every time I try, but it's hard to be super precise), but for B/B you might be stopping the time when she touches down for the 2nd time instead of the first, and that's why you're timing that lift as longer.

Also, B/H got an extended lift deduction on their combo lift at JGP Ostrava, the JGPF and the Bavarian Open. It was an ongoing problem for them this season, so it's not surprising they had the issue again. B/B didn't have any lift deductions this season from what I found.

 

[gravy]

This was all the rage in the ice dance world before senior worlds. The Canadians absolutely deserved to get a deduction for their extended lift and the Brits should have won based on that.

 

[dorispulaski]

Another caution. The camera the referee's video comes from is not the one used for the public to view, and that can affect the time you think the skate touched the ice vs. what the referee sees.

 

[Andrea82]

At this level of competitions, there is also a timer assistant who assist the referee in timing lifts (and everything else like interruptions). It is the person who sits next to the referee (in ISU Championships, between referee and judge #6).