Feminism and Figure Skating

[Pepe Nero]

Hey, GSers,

Perhaps the reason I love figure skating above all other sports is that it is one of two sports (the other being gymnastics) in which women’s contributions are highly valued. I am writing from the U.S., where the most popular sports involve (ostensibly) heterosexual men committing violence on each other.

I am a feminist, a male, and a professor of Women’s Studies and Philosophy. I also love, more than any of the other disciplines, LADIES figure skating. My question is: why the heck is it called “Ladies” figure skating? I’m sure there is a historical explanation. But I am looking for a JUSTIFICATION of why the discipline continues to have this name.

Here’s one "post-hoc" explanation: Nowadays, the top female figure skaters are not actually “women,” in the sense of being ADULT female human beings. But that is post-hoc (thus insufficient) because that has only recently been the case, perhaps since Michelle and Tara. (Whereas top male skater have actually been, more-or-less, “men”—over 18 years old.)

But I don’t think that’s *actually” the explanation of why the relevant discipline is called “ladies.” Obviously, it’s nothing more than the gender conservatism of our sport.

For example, I think it’s no coincidence that the women who’ve been capable of the triple axel, have, generally, been judged to be less “artistic.” Seriously, how does one explain how Jill Trenary beat Midori Ito for the World Championship that one year? (Well, except for the racism of our sport at the time, which is not gone yet. But the consistent under-marking of Mae Berenice Meite is another post...)

How does one explain how Mao Asada’s PC’s have gone up in the past couple GP events (this year) where she DIDN’T attempt the 3A?? (She’s been kicking *** in PCs ever since she stopped trying the 3A.)

Here’s calling for a movement to change the name of the discipline. Are you with me?

OCCUPY THE RINK??? ☺

Your thoughts….?

Best wishes, Pepe

 

[dorispulaski]

I've also found it an unpleasant survival, but not worth getting publicly upset about, particularly since a significant number of the participants at senior level are girls, rather than either ladies or women.

The language always reminds me of the old saloon sign:

Men & women: Please do not expectorate on the floor.
Ladies & gentlemen do not have to be thus reminded.

It also makes me wonder why it is not Gentlemen's Skating.

Granted, skating was an upper class activity in the UK, in the distant past, which might have something to do with the original labels.

 

[Olympia]

What an interesting take on skating.

I think it was called "ladies'" skating because it started around the turn of the twentieth century, and not only was there a different view of women in general and women athletes in particular, but also the average age of the participants was older.

By the way, I just looked up the Wimbledon site, and that tennis championship also uses the term ladies for its champions. Competitive tennis also started early in the 1900s or earlier--Wimbledon actually began in the late 1800s. Get this: men's singles is still called "gentlemen's singles." And, knowing the Brits, all the occupation in the world won't change that! I have a vague memory of reading lists of Wimbledon competitors in which the players were listed by their husbands name: Mrs. L. King instead of Billie Jean King, for example. If you remember the wonderful Hepburn/Tracy movie Pat and Mike, she was referred to in all her athletic contests as Mrs. Patricia Pemberton. I can't remember how they referred to Babe Didrikson in the movie.

Back to skating: I'm not sure there's anything to change the appellation "ladies" to that would reflect the participation of sixteen-year-olds. After all, "women's singles" doesn't sound any less mature, does it? Though of course that would reflect feminist views of our gender. And calling it "girls' singles" could be seen as demeaning to people like Michelle Kwan, Shizuka Arakawa, and Miki Ando.

 

[dorispulaski]

That would fit. It was originally about Class rather than Gender.

Both skating & tennis were upper class activities in the late 1800's.

So the question remains, why not Gentlemen's Skating.

 

[Olympia]

Elvis Stojko would have a field day with that!

Thought: Could it have been Gentlemen's Skating at one point?

 

[gkelly]

That would fit. It was originally about Class rather than Gender.

Both skating & tennis were upper class activities in the late 1800's.

So the question remains, why not Gentlemen's Skating.

Historically, as I understand it . . .

There was a world figure skating championship. It was assumed that only men would compete, but after a few years, in 1902, Madge Syers entered the competition (placing second out of four) and the ISU decided that instead of allowing women to compete with the men, they would create a separate ladies' championship. Took a couple of years to get it off the ground in 1906, and in time for the first Olympic figure skating competition in 1908, which was also the first year (both Olympics and Worlds) that offered a pairs event for men and women to compete together in teams.

The reason it was called ladies' instead of women's was because of the class implications of the words.

The reason why the men's championship didn't get a similar qualifier was because men were the default (as is so often the case) and women an afterthought. That championship already existed, so it remained simply "the world figure skating championship."

The reason why they weren't changed at some point after people started paying attention to gender-neutral language was tradition. The ISU still uses "men" and "ladies" in speedskating as well and still uses masculine pronouns in its rules when referring to a generic skater. They're not exactly forward thinking or politically correct in their use of language.

I believe the official language of the ISU was originally German -- it wasn't switched to English until sometime in the second half of the 20th century. I don't know enough about the German language to know whether that made a difference.

 

[Spun Silver]

Since you mentioned Mae-Berenice Meite, what do you make of her loss to Yretha Silete at French Nats?

As for Ladies' v. Women's... yeah... but I'm more bothered by the negative impacts of feminism on women. And men. We could use more "ladies" in the world these days, IMO.

 

[gkelly]

For example, I think it’s no coincidence that the women who’ve been capable of the triple axel, have, generally, been judged to be less “artistic.” Seriously, how does one explain how Jill Trenary beat Midori Ito for the World Championship that one year?

You mean 1990? The answer is that Ito buried herself in school figures that year, where artistry wasn't a consideration. She won both the short and long programs.

 

[OS]

If it was switched in the early to mid 50s is perfectly understandable why it was use called Ladies by the British (at least). Accomplished girls (hitting the teens) in public among the upper class are generally known as 'fine young ladies' and still does. So the fact it is called ladies's anything is just a matter of tradition rather than following any politically correct term of modernism.

Figure skating ultimately has the reputation as a posh and refined sport with its own etiquette. To call it women's figure skating would just dilute its tradition to sound somewhat common and crass imo. It being a cultured sport more than a performance sport therefore should rightfully uphold its own tradition.

As for Mao and her 3A. It is a matter of quality. I personally think the argument is entirely circumstantial. 3A is a thing of beauty when done perfectly, Mao's 3A is hardly equal to Midori's. On the other hand Midori's lines and artistry is hardly equal to Mao's Chopin programs. Had her 3A be the same quality as Midori's, I have no doubt the judges would have awarded her fantastic GOEs as well.

 

[Serious Business]

Hey, GSers,

Perhaps the reason I love figure skating above all other sports is that it is one of two sports (the other being gymnastics) in which women’s contributions are highly valued. [...]

I am a feminist, a male, and a professor of Women’s Studies and Philosophy. I also love, more than any of the other disciplines, LADIES figure skating.

That figure skating is one of the few sports in the US where female athletes get more attention/sponsorship/endorsements than men is not a sign of feminist progress. After all, female skating stars being elevated over men happened long before modern feminism. Sonja Henie's stardom and women's suffrage were only separated by a few years. Women are valued over men in this sport because it is one that's judged aesthetically, by looking. It is a competition where success depends on being visually objectified. As a women's studies prof, I'm sure you know all about the male gaze. Now I'm not saying rankings are based on a skater's actual looks. But the fact that it is visually judged places it, in the American cultural psyche, as an endeavor where women fit better. Because in the US (as in quite a few other cultures), women being judged, evaluated, markated, demeaned and elevated on a purely visual level is a pervasive tradition.

Parallel with that sentiment is that males shouldn't submit themselves to being appraised on a mainly visual basis. Thus the US stereotype of men's figure skaters as gay, because why else would they submit themselves to the male gaze? Coupled with homophobia, we have ourselves a sport where women have it all over men, a status that's symptomatic of some rather regressive gender attitudes.

Of course, the US is changing and progressing. Which, all else being the same, would lead to greater respect for the men and women involved in skating. Unfortunately, figure skating's general visibility and popularity may have plummeted far too much in the states for it to benefit.

My question is: why the heck is it called “Ladies” figure skating? […] Obviously, it’s nothing more than the gender conservatism of our sport.

Indeed. And this is related to what I said above. Figure skating puts women in a more traditional and passive/reactive role of being looked at. They're encouraged, and their success even depends on how well they comport themselves visually while pleasing an audience. It is pretty much the definition of being ladylike. Calling it ladies is a possibly unconscious, possibly deliberate reminder to women that they should aspire to this state.

For example, I think it’s no coincidence that the women who’ve been capable of the triple axel, have, generally, been judged to be less “artistic.” Seriously, how does one explain how Jill Trenary beat Midori Ito for the World Championship that one year? (Well, except for the racism of our sport at the time, which is not gone yet. But the consistent under-marking of Mae Berenice Meite is another post...)

How does one explain how Mao Asada’s PC’s have gone up in the past couple GP events (this year) where she DIDN’T attempt the 3A?? (She’s been kicking *** in PCs ever since she stopped trying the 3A.)

I don't know if the rise in Asada's PCS is due to her stopping the 3A, or improved skating skills from her new coaching team, or even a general rise in PCS for the top competitors.

But as to the treatment of Midori Ito, or even more saliently, Tonya Harding, there is no doubt to me that they were devalued because they were less ladylike. While in the US, men are often discouraged to display themselves visually (.e.g. men who take care of their looks are derided as metrosexual), one thing males are allowed and encouraged to do is to display their prowess and strength. Such displays are done to assert authority and dominance, rather than to please, placate and seduce like a show of feminine charms. The triple axel, a very aggressive and strong move (especially the way Midori and Tonya did them), puts them outside of America's mainstream comfort zone. Not to excuse the pile of idiotic, criminaln, unsporting and cruel things Tonya did. But she was mistreated by the sport because she wasin't dainty enough.

Here’s calling for a movement to change the name of the discipline. Are you with me?

It'd be a symbolic start. Or rather, a continuation.

In my estimation, the COP has greatly changed the culture of gender in figure skating. One obvious way is the PCS multiplier: for senior women, their PCS multiplier is .8 for the short, and 1.6 for the long, whereas for senior men it's 1 for the short and 2 for the long. This is intended to make the PCS roughly equal to the TES, and since men do harder elements, and are allowed more of them, their PCS multiplier has to be higher. However, this has the unintended consequence of making PCS, which is very much subjected to visual appraisal of comportment, audience-pleasing and other traditionally feminine stuff, less important for women than for men. Among roughly equal competitors, having a PCS advantage is more likely to put a man ahead of his peers than for a woman. Female skaters, therefore, have more of an incentive to work on improving their technical elements over their closest competitors, and theyr'e less constrained by PCS considerations.

Another way the COP has changed things is in the TES. The TES, for the most part, is pretty egalitarian in how it rates women and men. Regardless of gender, you get the same base marks for a jump, you have the same features to achieve levels in a spin, etc. Unlike the more nebulous PCS, these are all clearly spelled out and generally honored in scoring. Thus, female competitors have an umambiguous impetus to attempt harder jumps, no matter how manful others may consider them to be. The point advantage of a triple axel is going to make up nicely for any reduction in the PCS over sexism, if it happens at all. For male skaters, the level features in spins also give them an umambiguous impetus to attempt more flexibility, traditionally a feminine thing. A biellmann or a donut spin may earn guffaws from commentators, but those extra points for a higher level spin makes it worth it. This is leading to a skating culture in which men will look to how women maximize their TES, and women will look to how men do it. It's sharing and emulation across the gender divide. Progress!

 

[Tonichelle]

As for Ladies' v. Women's... yeah... but I'm more bothered by the negative impacts of feminism on women. And men. We could use more "ladies" in the world these days, IMO.

Of all the things to get someone's panties in a wad, I get tired of the gender debate.

 

[snowflake]

Pepe Nero, isn't the US women's soccer team loved and showed a lot in media? US even have a professional league for women. Not bad I think.

For me "lady" is just a word meaning female. But I'm not English speaking. Suppose it means differently depending on how old you are and which nation/gender/class you belong to. I am sure I've heard this phrase often in films: "Now you listen to me young lady" …….. often meaning bad behavior from a girl who is actually behaving naturally.

In Sweden athletes are called damer & herrar in most sports (which is about the same as Ladies and Gentlemen) even in ice hockey Same as is written on WC doors, but not used on women and men in daily talk.

What bothers me about female FS is that it's looked upon as a beauty contest by many. (Not by me cause I know how hard they practice and how much physical strength is needed to do the jumps and a full program.) That's why I like Alena Leonova so much. Her pirate program is such a contrast from what you expect from a Lady. She is very brave I think, gutsy and not looking pretty in dirty outfit and uncombed hair. I like some beautiful performances too, but I wish there were more diversity. It's like all female figure skaters are called Ice Princesses from their first steps on ice. If I were a coach, choreographer or a parent to a little FS-girl, I would do all to build on her personality. Shouting "Skate your life out there my Ice Devil" or something suitable. I am sure many female talents are lost because they don't buy the princess style. So they go to football, snowboard, hockey, tracks and field, boxing or other sports they find more cool.

Could be a point to call it women' FS…. I don't know… maybe just to show that things are different now and should change.

As for the age issue, a 16 year old is a young lady/woman to me.

I wouldn't draw conclusions about Meite being black - getting low PCS. Both she and Silete are athletic with big jumps. You can like their styles, but as for now they lack a lot between the jumps IMO.

 

[louisa05]

Before we get skating to call them "women" instead of "ladies", can we fix high school sports. Because there is a practice in these parts in high school sports that bugs the crap out of me.

High schools have a mascot, for example, the last school I worked at was the "Knights". The boys teams are referred to as the "knights". But the girls teams are called the "Lady Knights". At that school, it was justified by noting that knights in medieval times were all men. However, most schools do this. So I have heard of "Lady Badgers" and "Lady Tigers"--where the "but they were all male" excuse doesn't cut it.

It needs to be eliminated. Unless we are going to call boys' teams "gentlemen knights" and "gentlemen badgers", etc...

 

[Tonichelle]

Before we get skating to call them "women" instead of "ladies", can we fix high school sports. Because there is a practice in these parts in high school sports that bugs the crap out of me.

High schools have a mascot, for example, the last school I worked at was the "Knights". The boys teams are referred to as the "knights". But the girls teams are called the "Lady Knights". At that school, it was justified by noting that knights in medieval times were all men. However, most schools do this. So I have heard of "Lady Badgers" and "Lady Tigers"--where the "but they were all male" excuse doesn't cut it.

It needs to be eliminated. Unless we are going to call boys' teams "gentlemen knights" and "gentlemen badgers", etc...

Meh, we were all Kardinals (yes the spelling is/was intentional) in high school... I've heard "lady lions" from a school in another city, but most of the schools that are in my hometown area don't make that distinction. We have Spartans, Stars, Mariners, Kossacks, Kardinals, Bulldogs... gender neutral...

I think "Lady _____s" is cute, though. *shrugs* like I said, I prefer not to get my panties in a wad over something so completely trivial.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The one sport with complete equality of the genders is Equestrian where athletes or both genders, human and equine, compete together with no differentiation of any kind in the rules.

 

[dorispulaski]

So do you think Lady Huskies is cute for the UConn Women's basketball team?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Huskies

They are just the Huskies, just like the men are.

However that doesn't keep news organizations like ABC news from posting headlines like this:

UConn's Lady Huskies Break Record -- Why Aren't More Paying Attention?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/uconns-lady-huskies-poised-break-record-paying-attention/story?id=12451088

Needless to say, those in CT are well aware that most lady dogs are not called lady dogs. And husky lady dogs is even worse.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think people will decide to be offended no matter what and read into it what they will. No, I don't see anything wrong with Lady Huskies. If that means I have to give away my woman/ladies/girl/female card, then let me be the one to light the match. *shrugs*

The one sport with complete equality of the genders is Equestrian where athletes or both genders, human and equine, compete together with no differentiation of any kind in the rules.

Dog Sledding/Mushing is the same way. There's not a ladies or men division... and the ladies in mushing kick BUTT!

 

[gkelly]

Needless to say, those in CT are well aware that most lady dogs are not called lady dogs. And husky lady dogs is even worse.

Somehow I don't foresee the team becoming known as the Husky Bitches any time soon.

But yeah, it's the same issue I alluded to above. The male is the default, the female needs qualification to clarify that they're not "the" championships or "the" Huskies, etc.

 

[dorispulaski]

That's why they are the huskies and not the lady huskies. To avoid the bad jokes about husky bitches.

However, given UConn basketball's history, there is a local bumper sticker that says:

UConn - Where Men Are Men, and Women are Champions.

 

[Tonichelle]

The Iditarod/Alaska has that as well

Alaska: Where men are men, and women win the Iditarod

though since the very early 90s was the last time a woman's team won it's now

Alaska: Where men are still men.


I know when Susan Butcher started dominating the mushing scene in the 80s the men were having issues with their ego about it. It was so bad that they refused to vote her lead dog granite as the MVD (Most Valuable Dog). Which is ridiculous because 9 times out of 10 the lead dog that wins the race ends up winning the golden harness. It was reverse sexism! LOL (Granite was a male). He finally got his due after their third win after a few of the guys realized Susan and Granite were an amazing duo and not some fluke.

I don't think the division of sexes is so much to protect the ladies or keep them back/down/whatever... I think it's just a way to protect the very delicate male ego.