Fernandez: ‘Anything is possible’

[Barb]

that's how the system works and we should no longer act surprised by this, the biggest demonstration of that was that fateful competition in China where Yuzuru fell a million times.

 

[Ender]

that's how the system works and we should no longer act surprised by this, the biggest demonstration of that was that fateful competition in China where Yuzuru fell a million times.

The PCS was 84, not 92 right? We should go back to WC 2013 when Chan messed horribly and still won WC.

 

[rosacotton]

That is generally true, but I guess it's the current "What on earth is happening?" that this GP series has that makes everything look worse by accumulation. A lot of injuries & connected sup-bar skates (Yuzu, Patrick, Boyang, Dima Aliev, Javi, Shoma (the flu + his rumored ankle injuries and backstage videos here showing him taping said ankle...), Zhenya at NHK in the ladies...) plus weird scoring overall. In France aided by the horrible conditions (bad ice, cheap podium/"medals"...). It just kind of adds up to the feeling of a cursed GP. And tbh, I thought the last 2 years the GP series were way better and stronger overall at this point (when talking about men, not in the other disciplines). So I can't lie, I have that feeling we'll get Sochi skating again too (probably with 2002 judging at that). Not the fault of any single skater, just an overall thing right now that's rather not motivating. Hopefully it turns out wrong though!

I do think the previous two years the GP series were better for the men. Maybe it is because this is the Olympic season and there so much riding on it, so much added pressure. The 2013 GP leading up to Sochi I don't recall being anywhere as wild as this year; perhaps part of the reason was because there wasn't as many men attempting multiple quads as we have now?

 

[Mathman]

lLet's say an athlete performed at 75% of their base value.... which is 100 : they still get 75 points (let's just include GOE as neutral) an athlete having a BV of 75 needs a flawless skate to get the same amount of points...

What is easier to achieve?

To me, that is not a rhetorical question. There are skaters who skate technically easier programs and land all their jumps, and there are others that throw in everything but the kitchen sink and hit quite a few or their elements, but not all. Which is more deserving of the prize?

 

[4everchan]

To me, that is not a rhetorical question. There are skaters who skate technically easier programs and land all their jumps, and there are others that throw in everything but the kitchen sink and hit quite a few or their elements, but not all. Which is more deserving of the prize?

well here is the thing : a skater like Micha KNOWS that he won't get the gold without a quad. He has accepted that. BTW, there are other issues in his skating that are not often discussed but he is very slow and doesn't have the best, deepest edges on the field... so I see why he is not marked higher.

Some of the quadsters know that their jumps have perhaps a 50-50 rate... so by including 4 or 5, they know their BV is untouchable compared to a guy like Misha. If they land 2 or 3 quads and rotate the rest... even with falls, those botched quads are worth more than Misha's 2 double axels.

Patrick has said it many times, he doesn't include a jump in his programs unless it's nearly to 80% success in practice. Javi has said that he would not add any other quad as he would aim at going cleanish.

So it is happening, among the top guys... however, they have to accept that they may be fighting for bronze based on base value alone, or that others will have to mess up badly. That's the main difference. Not being the sole master of your destiny. And for competitors, that's tough to enter a competition with such a feeling.

I think that PCS need to be factored to 1.2 to reflect the growth of BV. I would like to see a quad fall get -5 in GOE. I think there are ways to balance the system to make guys with one or two quads, but quality skating as competitive as guys with 4-5 quads that have rough landings.

What the quad mania has destroyed for me is the pure jumping style....we see too many dubious entrances, rough exits, pops and falls.. and yet these programs can win.

I am not advocating for a Misha Ge win here. Not at all. I am very happy he got bronze at a GP. I don't even see him crack top 8 at the Olympics or worlds. However, I agree with the feeling many have, at the end of the day, the program I would like to watch again is Misha's because the performance, if not ideal, isn't disturbed by so many mistakes.... However, to me, if we follow current rules, I don't see why we should complain about the judging. Misha does 2 double axels at 3.3 points in his program.... a quad lutz is worth ten points above that...

 

[gsk8]

“At the world level, the men’s figure skating has progressed fast and we’ve been trying to catch up,” said Samarin in regards to the Russian field. “I think it’s starting to happen, and as for the girls, I’m really happy for them.”

I felt so bad for him after the FS. It was clear he was very disappointed. I hope he's able to brush it off and focus on nationals.

 

[rabbit1234]

ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Number of deduction

year ： 24competitors ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1
2006 ： 8 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2007 ： 14 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2008 ： 12 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2009 ： 9 ： 1 ： 1 ： 1
2010 ： 14 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 14 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0
2012 ： 11 ： 4 ： 3 ： 2
2013 ： 14 ： 3 ： 2 ： 2
2014 ： 6 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2015 ： 14 ： 2 ： 2 ： 1
2016 ： 12 ： 1 ： 1 ： 0
2017 ： 14 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0

The number of deduction is not increasing.
In recent years, only Patrick's 2012, 2013 won the ISU World Figure Skating Championships with deduction 2.00.
Despite the large number of deductions, the only competitor that can win is the PCS high competitor.
Even in this competition, Vincent's performance shows that.

As a matter of fact, competitors with many quads do not have many mistakes.
In reality, in ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017, TOP 3 hanyu, uno and jin had little mistakes and deduction was 0.
The more mistakes were made, such as Chan and Javier with few quads.

 

[4everchan]

ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Number of deduction

year ： 24competitors ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1
2006 ： 8 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2007 ： 14 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2008 ： 12 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2009 ： 9 ： 1 ： 1 ： 1
2010 ： 14 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 14 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0
2012 ： 11 ： 4 ： 3 ： 2
2013 ： 14 ： 3 ： 2 ： 2
2014 ： 6 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2015 ： 14 ： 2 ： 2 ： 1
2016 ： 12 ： 1 ： 1 ： 0
2017 ： 14 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0

The number of deduction is not increasing.
In recent years, only Patrick's 2012, 2013 won the ISU World Figure Skating Championships with deduction 2.00.
Despite the large number of deductions, the only competitor that can win is the PCS high competitor.
As a matter of fact, competitors with many quads do not have many mistakes.
In reality, in ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017, TOP 3 hanyu, uno and jin had little mistakes and deduction was 0.
The more mistakes were made, such as Chan and Javier with few quads.

these stats are flawed though as they do not take into consideration popping jumps... or landing on your knees.... those are just for quads... and if some do fall on their quads, most pop them or just land them very roughly...

and FWIW : Chan's deductions didn't happen on his quads in 2012 and 2013 but on much easier jumps

 

[rabbit1234]

these stats are flawed though as they do not take into consideration popping jumps... or landing on your knees.... those are just for quads... and if some do fall on their quads, most pop them or just land them very roughly...

and FWIW : Chan's deductions didn't happen on his quads in 2012 and 2013 but on much easier jumps

fall and deduction are the most typical failures.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

number of GOE minus
hanyu　　　 1
uno 　　 　2
jin　　　　 　1
Nathan　　　7
CHAN 　　3
FERNANDEZ 5

And the mistake of Chan of 2012 and 2013 proves that mistakes are occurring regardless of the number of quads.

And,ISU GP Internationaux de France de Patinage 2017　has many competitors with few quads. Nevertheless, there were many competitors who made mistakes.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Misha's last GP event, and his first GP medal.

Misha's last GP event, and his first GP medal.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think there has to be a more emphasized PCS, with a higher factor for Mens to equal the current maximum TES, and importantly, judges need to be real about the scores. PCS should accurately mark all the aspects it encompasses, not given like cheap candies and so overall generous that little differentiates the truly superb and deserving from the perceived top tier skaters who are so perceived because of their high scoring jumps. The possible negative effects of a quad filled program should be reflected in the PCS so the skaters and their teams have to be careful about their inclusion, the program construction and all aspects of the PCS.

 

[rabbit1234]

I believe that figure skating is a sport, so champion need to be in the top group even with difficulty.
I think boring ladies is due to the lack of technical progress for 25 years.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The PCS was 84, not 92 right? We should go back to WC 2013 when Chan messed horribly and still won WC.

Instead of trying to deflect, I think we should just acknowledge that both were arguably the two worst examples of PCS judging (although Kolyada's Rostelecom FS 89 PCS with 3 falls might have something to say about that).

Both cost other deserving skaters titles.

Ten deserved to win, but Chan's superb SP, his two FS quad passes, Ten doubling two triples, and Ten being a non-favourite going into the competition, saved Chan in the end.

But 5 falls getting 84 PCS (especially way back in 2014) is truly some kinda special messed up judging. Hanyu had more falls (5) than clean triples (4).... and got 84.02. http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf .
Compare that to his better, but still subpar FS at NHK a few weeks later, landing 7 triples and his PCS - on home ice - was just 82.48.... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2014/gpjpn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf ...which goes to show how crazy high the 84.02 was in CoC. Even his NHK 82.48 given his many errors (including a fall) was still way too high, and coupled with getting the highest SP PCS of anyone - even with 2 major errors - he was granted 4th edging out Abbott by 0.25, when he should have been 5th. This higher placement ultimately gifted him spot in the GPF.

And while he absolutely slayed the GPF that season, there is absolutely no justification for him to have been in the final in the first place given how abysmal every program of his 2 Grand Prix events was. Ten losing Worlds is worse, but arguably, Javier should have a Grand Prix Final title to his name, but doesn't thanks to reputation scoring/bad judging.

But hey, "anything is possible", Javi!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yeah, that was the season where Misha Ge should have won 2014 Cup of China and taken a Bronze at 2014 Rostelecom, comfortably putting him into the GPF. Hanyu shouldn't have even been an alternate with his performances at CoC + NHK, but ultimately he was the only person to actually skate great at the GPF...so in that sense it worked out for the best.

 

[rabbit1234]

After all, I think that it is caused by the fact that the concept of PCS is not clear. It is unclear whether or not the failure of the jump affects PCS. In other words, the PCS is not sure which part of the performance is being judged.

Fall will be deducted. Moreover, it can also be -4 on GOE.
If you also score down with PCS, you will be deducting one failure in triplicate.

With this, the competitor that jumps a difficult jump will be gone.

Is it to wish for the situation like the Vancouver Olympics?

In addition,Can you say that a competitor who can only do a simple triple really has a high skating skill?
In juniors, can competitors who can only jump 2 turns be able to score high with skating skills? That is the question.

A competitor with a high BV rotates more and does complicated things. Competitor with low BV, difficulty is easy.
Is the competitor with low difficulty really have high skating skills?

Even in BV of spin, Jason, shoma, Nathan et al. Have 3.50, 3.50, 3.20 and high BV.
In contrast, Patrick has low BV of 3.50, 3.20, 3.00, Javier 3.50, 3.50, 3.00.
They can say that they are avoiding difficulties even in spin.
They can be said that they perform a simple program that avoids spinning difficult, as a whole, with few rotations.

BV shows the difficulty and complexity of the whole program.
Is it possible to say that the competitor with a low BV can have a high skating skill?
If the skating skill is high, is not it easy to do difficult jumps and difficult spins etc?

 

[fireovertheice]

This:

After all, I think that it is caused by the fact that the concept of PCS is not clear. It is unclear whether or not the failure of the jump affects PCS.

I ask to you all where is written in the rules or guidelines that one fall or two, or downgrded/popped jumps should affects all the PCS (obviously this happen if you have falls, pops, UR and in general a messy skate).
And if yes, if fall/falls have to affect just PE, IN and maybe CO, or also SS and TR, and more important in which measure.
In fact, I know that now it has been said just that with a fall there should be no 10s (though we know that also in this season this indication was not followed...)

For example: if I see a performance realised with great SS and superb transitions (continuity in general, difficulty and variety), combined with an very hard technical layout (now for men 3 or more quads plus 2 3A and some triples in FS) and with a strong commitment of the skater in IN and in general in PE and maybe just one fall and one downgraded jump not particularly disrupting the performance, I don't see why this should affect SS and TR, and sometimes also CO e IN, for example. To me this should affects only the scores of PE...or not?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

[rabbit1234]

This:


I ask to you all where is written in the rules or guidelines that one fall or two, or downgrded/popped jumps should affects all the PCS (obviously this happen if you have falls, pops, UR and in general a messy skate).
And if yes, if fall/falls have to affect just PE, IN and maybe CO, or also SS and TR, and more important in which measure.
In fact, I know that now it has been said just that with a fall there should be no 10s (though we know that also in this season this indication was not followed...)

For example: if I see a performance realised with great SS and superb transitions (continuity in general, difficulty and variety), combined with an very hard technical layout (now for men 3 or more quads plus 2 3A and some triples in FS) and with a strong commitment of the skater in IN and in general in PE and maybe just one fall and one downgraded jump not particularly disrupting the performance, I don't see why this should affect SS and TR, and sometimes also CO e IN, for example. To me this should affects only the scores of PE...or not?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

Whether or not fall affects PCS in cases other than 10 points is not clarified in the rules.
Therefore, maybe the way of thinking differs in judges?

I think that there is no unity of opinion among the judges.
There was a judge that puts 10 points on the PCS even to the act which has fall so far.


http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gprus2017/gprus2017_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
There was a judge with 10 points against the performance of Evgenia MEDVEDEVA 's fall.
It is obvious that this judge thought that 10 points could be applied even in the case of fall

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gprus2017/gprus2017_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Mikhail KOLYADA has marked his personal best PCS 89 with deduction 4.00.

I think that it is not unified as it is not clear by rules.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpcan2015/SEG001.HTM

Let's mention this as an example where the rankings of TES and PCS are divergent. At this time Hanyu was 11th in TES.
On the other hand, PCS was ranked number one on home country's chan.
Despite the low ranking of top competitors in TES like this, there are many cases where PCS has a high score.
It is a situation we do not know well how much failure such as jump affects PCS.

 

[rabbit1234]

There are people who condemn this time that Javier and shoma have exceeded PCS 90 with deduction 2.00.
But Chan, in the past, exceeded PCS 90 with deduction 4.00.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpf1617/SEG002.HTM
This kind of thing happens frequently ever.

Has anyone accused of pointing out such a thing so far?
I think they also condemn with double standards and I think that opinions are not unified.

To think of this problem, I think we have to start with how to define the PCS concept.
In addition to deduction - 1 and GOEminus - 4 by fall, it is also necessary to consider the pros and cons of triple deduction.

If the competitor who challenged a difficult jump can not earn rewards, we should also consider stopping the evolution of figure skating.

 

[fireovertheice]

To me, for example, the problem of PCS scoring of Fernandez FS at IdF, is not that he fell twice on jumps, but that before and after those he had several mistakes with sloppy landings, being a little bit slower than usual and not so clear and sure in every transition, too, and in general giving the impression of fatigue to carry on the performance.
In fact, already in the first 4T landing, the free leg was so low that in the end touched the ice (+2 GOE for two judges, J1 and J9). He recovered in the transitions before and after and in jumping the 4Scombo, but then he had a sort of twofooted landing in the 3A, a slight loss of balance in the first part of the CSSp (+3 GOE again for J1 and this time J7), the foramentioned fall on the 4S and a general slowdown in steps and movements that lead to a not beautiful landing on the 3F, the second fall in the second 3A, missing also the combo, and again sloppy landings in the last triples combo. Step sequence was good, but not brilliant as Javier could do. To me all these factors affected PE, IN and a little bit SS and CO.

The judges had for sure a different opinion: http://skatingscores.com/2018/gpfra/men/long/
J1, the spanish Delfa, obviously gave him 9.50 in SS and TR, 9.75 in CO e IN, giving maybe the only (to me) right score in PE, i.e. 8.75.
But also J9, Ms. Numanova from Uzbekistan was not joking about it, because she gave again 9.50 in SS, TR and CO, 9.75 in IN and ....9.25 in PE!
Also J6 (GEO) and 7(KAZ) scored Fernandez PCS very high, with PE at 9.25.

I ask my self and to you how this is possible, without any intention to bash the skater, that surely gave all he had in the competition, or wanting the usual and general complain about the judging system: I would like just understand the logic under this scores, if there is one, because sometimes I have the impression that I am still missing some rules or that maybe I wachted different performances (also if I know that wachting via videos is different than watching live in the arena).

 

[rabbit1234]

If the PCS is judged duplicately with elements such as jumps and GOE, competitors with low jumping difficulty should be evaluated low on PCS as well.
If PCS can also be lowered because jumping is bad, if the difficulty of jumping is low, PCS skating skill should also be evaluated as low. Because it does not do difficult things.
I think the point is what part PCS evaluates in the evaluation.
Although shape and quality of jump affects PCS, it is strange that jump 's difficulty does not affect PCS.

As for GOE,
http://www.jsfresults.com/data/fs/pd...m/comm2089.pdf
The final GOE of an element is calculated considering first the positive aspects of the element that result in a starting GOE for the evaluation. Following that a Judge reduces the GOE according to the guidelines of possible errors and the result is the final GOE of the element.

Touch down with one hand or free foot -1

So the final GOE can be positive.