FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

[Ulrica]

The fact that in 2019 there are still people who believe men and women should behave/act a certain way and prefer certain things to fit into what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" is very, very sad. A woman doesn't need to be "classically feminine" in any way if that's not what she wants, same goes for men and masculinity.

Anyway, to stay on topic, I don't get why quads in the SP are forbidden for senior ladies, we shouldn't be limiting the capabilities of athletes, regardless of gender. As for the raising of the age limit, I don't think it will happen, personally I am against raising it to 17/18 years old, let alone to 21. Perhaps to 16 would be reasonable, it would allow for girls to develop their SS before moving to seniors and maybe to see if quads are actually a sustainable element for ladies, but the current age of 15 is mostly fine as it is.

 

[Nord Stream 2]

The quads will be approved the day after Alysa, Rika, and You start landing them qualitatively at the competition. I look forward to it.

The age will be raised the day after Alysa, Rika, and You stop jumping 3A. Hope they will be OK.

The next changes should be expected when Nathan Chen will give his crown to Daniil Samsonov . It'll be 2 or 3 years from now.

Of course it's a joke.

Some people in ISU have a good sense of humor.

 

[Mathman]

The quads will be approved the day after Alysa, Rika, and You start landing them qualitatively at the competition. I look forward to it.

The age will be raised the day after Alysa, Rika, and You stop jumping 3A. Hope they will be OK.

But seriously, nah, quads will be approved for the 2022-23 season no matter who is or is not doing them. It is inevitable. There will not even be any real debate about it. (It could even happen next year.)

They will not seriously consider raising the age limit no matter who is what age or what jumps anyone is doing.

 

[Happy Skates]

The difference is that triple axels are triple jumps. The SP requirements since the mid-1970s have allowed triple jumps in the jump combination, since before any men had landed 3A in the freeskate. Which triple jump was up to the skater. It took until the mid-1980s for men to try 3A in their SP jump combinations, and by the early 1990s there were two women doing the same.

The wording had always allowed for them in the combo, but the skill levels of the skaters took a while to catch up.

But it was a lot longer before triple-triple combinations or solo triples were allowed in SPs (even for men, because of the required double jumps), let alone triple axels as the solo axel or quads as solo jump or in combo.



In the short program, because short programs were designed to compare apples to apples and to ensure that all skaters could demonstrate certain specific skills that everyone at that level should be able to do. Short programs by design have never been about pushing envelopes.

Maybe the short program has outlived that purpose and needs to be rethought.

Sure triple axels are triple jumps, but there is a clear distinction in ladies skating between triple lutz and triple axel + quads. Everyone at the top can do a triple lutz, not everyone can do a triple axel or a quad. And if the short program is supposed to be what everyone can do, then why do they allow a triple axel? All I'm saying is that its not fair to allow a triple axel and not allow a quad. And I'm well aware of the history of "comparing apples to apples", and thats exactly what makes this unfair. Allowing one skill that not everyone has at the top and not allowing another is not "comparing apples to apples". Once they allowed the triple axel for women when only 2 or 3 at the very most per season could do it (was it ever even 3 until this season?), they closed that door. Its not a "technical program" anymore, and the history doesn't matter. If they allow a 3A they have to allow a quad. You can't argue that they can't allow a quad because its not a skill that everyone can do but still be fine with them allowing a triple axel, when many of the top skaters can't do a 3A, and a few can do a quad but not a 3A.

 

[gkelly]

The thing is, rule changes are reactive and based on the development of the sport across the whole field, not designed to give specific skaters an advantage or to take it away.

Federations will lobby for rule changes they think will benefit their current skaters. But the changes don't happen overnight. The ISU Congress only meets every other year, and they don't like to make big changes in the middle of an Olympic cycle.

(Note that the addition of solo 3A as an option in the senior ladies' SP went into effect after the 2010 season, not 2008.)

The last time a change of this nature could have been voted on was summer 2018. At that time, there was Trusova doing a quad in juniors and no one else.

Other skaters have taken up the challenge since then, but there hasn't been an opportunity to change the rules during that time.

I'm sure there will be vote on adding quads to the ladies' SP at the 2020 ISU Congress, and I fully expect some version of a new rule to pass. Whether it will take effect immediately (2020-21 season) or two years later after the next Olympics, and whether it will apply only to senior ladies or also to juniors remains to be seen.

And most likely whoever takes best advantage of it in 2022 or 2023 will not be someone who was foremost in rulemakers' minds while they were voting in 2020.

 

[kwanatic]

What about pairs and ice dancers? Should that be applied to them as well? Should be Pavliuchenko/Khodykin still in juniors?

I don't follow pairs that closely so I'm not sure what the argument is here. Are they younger and currently seniors?

 

[el henry]

@gkelly and @mathman make the points I would have made.

Quads in the Ladies’ SP are inevitable, but it has Jackson B Squat to do with how many proposals the RusFed makes or which country’s women are doing them. In a federation where, I believe, Mexico and Malaysia have the same number of votes as Russia, it will be a decision made when all feds are persuaded it is time to change.

RusFed of course cares about RusFed, that’s what they should do, but other countries’ feds simply do not care, they are concerned about promoting the sport at home. And I’ve made this offer before, and no one has taken me up on it: if you can find one random person on the streets of Bethlehem who knows Anna, Alena, Sasha or even Alina, now that it’s been two years since the Olys, I will buy you a drink. If you can find anyone who knows Eteri, I’ll buy you two. No one cares

I am more hopeful than @Mathman that the age limit for *all* skaters to go senior (make, female, non binary) might be raised, but that is the subject of another thread.

And it’s a long road (or rink) that has no turns.

 

[flanker]

I don't follow pairs that closely so I'm not sure what the argument is here. Are they younger and currently seniors?

Pavliuchenko is 16 and there are other pairs and dancers that would be affected. But even without knowing particular pair, it should be obvious that those changes of the age eligibility could have impacts into other cathegories as well, not just singles, it's elementary.

 

[lariko]

And Pavlyuchenko competed in seniors since last year at 15.

When proposing changes to regulations, there has to be evidence of logic. How is allowing quad in the SP specifically is connected to the lower age limit cut off?

It doesn’t even address this patriarchal hope that it will make it physically impossible for the ladies to jump quads, because the quads are still allowed in free.

It will only make it more torturous on the ladies and further restrict the body types of the competitors, which, by the way will be counterproductive to the ask for voluptuous figure skaters.

They will simply look for ladies that retain boyish body type and small build after whatever age cut off, which does occur.

 

[flanker]

I think this highlights one of the big problems with the IJS. Every year the ISU comes out with a tiny tweak of the rules. Let's encourage a broader distribution of highlight elements by awarding a bonus to jumps in the second half. Sounds like a good idea, right?

But the skaters and coaching teams are always a step ahead. Backload everything! Then the next year the ISU has to intervene again and say, no, no, no, that's not what we meant. Just backload half of your jumps so the program isn't so front-heavy like they used to be before the bonus rule.

It is the same with, say Bielmann positions or hands-over-the-head. Very cool. Give the skater an extra feature.

But then the skaters outsmart the ISU again by putting in a Bielmann or hand-over-the-head on every element. The ISU is forced to react. This creates the impression that the ISU is just lurching back and forth between, "do this"; "no, stop doing it so much."

Therefore I don't think it is useful to apply numerous single-purposed rules every year, unless it is something truly necessary, and rather think it through more. What should be the purpose of SP/FS? How we would like it to look like? Is this way/strategy of the skaters useful/dangerous/something we don'ty want to see/not a big deal? Etc. And then make corrections.

As for the quads in SP? I truly don't know why it should be prohibited for ladies, all arguments I've heard against it doesn't sound conmvincing or useful in any way to me. On the other hand I'm not against the idea that before it will be introduced (and it will, sooner or later) there will be some thoughts around it, whether the components socre should be risen, if it should be introduced now or after the next olympics etc. But the time should be used wisely, not just the way "we are too conservative and inflexibe to make right decisions as soon as possible" (adn I'm saying this as being pretty conservative myself ).

 

[el henry]

What about pairs and ice dancers? Should that be applied to them as well? Should be Pavliuchenko/Khodykin still in juniors?

I can’t speak for @Kwanatic, but from my point of view, yes.

Age limits applied to all genders, all disciplines :agree:

Of course, that means that posters who cry “sexism” about age limits need to find another argument, but that’s cool, it’s a red herring anyway

And I think restrictions should be the same for all genders. Of course, from my point of view, I would prefer to see no quads for anyone in the SP, but that ship has sailed

 

[flanker]

I can’t speak for @Kwanatic, but from my point of view, yes.

Age limits applied to all genders, all disciplines :agree:

Of course, that means that posters who cry “sexism” about age limits need to find another argument, but that’s cool, it’s a red herring anyway

And I think restrictions should be the same for all genders. Of course, from my point of view, I would prefer to see no quads for anyone in the SP, but that ship has sailed

OK, when doing something wrong, than at least equally wrong to everybody, I support that

 

[cohen-esque]

As, indeed, the men's rules were not changed from no quads to two quads all in one go either.

In 1998-99, men were finally allowed to do one quad in the short program as the jump out of steps. (Few who tried actually included many steps.) The same year the solo axel was finally allowed to be either triple or double.

Then a couple years later (2000-01?) men were still allowed to do only one quad in the SP but they now had the option of doing it either as the solo jump or as one jump in the combination.

It was about a decade before it was allowed to include two quads, one in each of those elements.

True, but that was then, and this is now. I feel like the ISU’s philosophy and priorities have changed, and so has the general public sentiment towards the whole idea of different standards for men and women, even only in sport. (Also I’m just generally feeling more and more cynical about the ISU these days and measured, deliberate rule changes don’t fit my current mental model of them at all.)

My perception of how many men were landing 3As in the SP in combination/from steps, or just at all, in the FS, could easily be failing me, but I feel as if it took a lot more men doing it concurrently (or at least more closely in time than the women with 20 years of rare, sporadic attempts) before the rule change was seriously entertained for it to be a solo jump, as opposed to how the solo 3A was legalized for women after just a few landed it in the 2000s (after a 10 year gap from Tonya and Midori) or as proposed for the quads now. There was a period where 3A+3T and 2A was basically a benchmark to be a top man in the SP before the change; we only just *now* have multiple 3A ladies 10 years after it was legalized in that discipline. The pace of rule changes has picked up, I think.

 

[gkelly]

My perception of how many men were landing 3As in the SP in combination/from steps, or just at all, in the FS, could easily be failing me, but I feel as if it took a lot more men doing it concurrently (or at least more closely in time than the women with 20 years of rare, sporadic attempts) before the rule change was seriously entertained for it to be a solo jump,

The first triple axel was landed in a freeskate in 1978.

I believe the first 3A combination in a short program was ca. 1984-85.

Remember that throughout the 1970s and 80s the non-axel solo jump was a specified double jump that everyone had to do, and the jump combination also had to include a specified double jump along with an optional double or triple.

That changed starting with the 1989 season, when men were allowed (required?) to do any triple jump as the solo jump and were allowed to do triple-triple in the jump combination.

In 1990, a handful of the top jumpers planned 3A both as the first jump of their SP jump combination and as the solo triple out of steps (with few preceding steps), along with the required double axel.

The ISU didn't like all-axel short programs (or 3Lz as both the solo jump and first jump of the combination, which at least one guy was also doing), so they quickly rewrote the rules for the 1991 season to specify that the same jump could not be used in more than one SP jump element. Which still remains true today. (Same takeoff and different number of revolutions makes a different jump.)

as opposed to how the solo 3A was legalized for women after just a few landed it in the 2000s (after a 10 year gap from Tonya and Midori) or as proposed for the quads now. There was a period where 3A+3T and 2A was basically a benchmark to be a top man in the SP before the change; we only just *now* have multiple 3A ladies 10 years after it was legalized in that discipline. The pace of rule changes has picked up, I think.

I don't know that the pace of rule changes has actually picked up -- depends where you start the clock for the addition of solo 3A to the ladies' SP, which was the most recent significant change to the SP content. (Also simultaneous with the removal of the ladies' spiral sequence/men's second step sequence, but that's not what we're talking about here.)

Just in the past handful of years the pace of adding more difficult jump content has accelerated significantly. Rules haven't yet caught up with what the best jumpers are doing, but advocates for those jumpers want to see quicker rule changes than the established process really allows.

 

[TontoK]

@gkelly and @mathman make the points I would have made.

Quads in the Ladies’ SP are inevitable, but it has Jackson B Squat to do with how many proposals the RusFed makes or which country’s women are doing them. In a federation where, I believe, Mexico and Malaysia have the same number of votes as Russia, it will be a decision made when all feds are persuaded it is time to change.

RusFed of course cares about RusFed, that’s what they should do, but other countries’ feds simply do not care, they are concerned about promoting the sport at home. And I’ve made this offer before, and no one has taken me up on it: if you can find one random person on the streets of Bethlehem who knows Anna, Alena, Sasha or even Alina, now that it’s been two years since the Olys, I will buy you a drink. If you can find anyone who knows Eteri, I’ll buy you two. No one cares

I am more hopeful than @Mathman that the age limit for *all* skaters to go senior (make, female, non binary) might be raised, but that is the subject of another thread.

And it’s a long road (or rink) that has no turns.

My good friend is spouting wisdom, as she normally does when I agree with her.

One thing I find irrelevant in this whole discussion is the Russian Federation angle... that they're trying something underhanded.

Skipping to a different sport... People now talk about the dominance of American women in gymnastics. They forget it wasn't always that way. It took foreigners... from Communist countries!... Olga Korbut in 1972 and Nadia in 1976 to inspire young women and ignite intense interest in the sport in America. Then in 1980 we got Mary Lou. And in later years, and later decades, more and more. Faster, higher, stronger.

So, while I don't happen to enjoy the young Russian ladies, people who somehow believe that all Americans share my view are wrong. Give 'em free rein. Let them do what they can. A new batch of female gladiators will arise. They always do. And the new batch will have better maturity and artistry.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Age limits applied to all genders, all disciplines :agree:
Of course, that means that posters who cry “sexism” about age limits need to find another argument, but that’s cool, it’s a red herring anyway

Well, if we want to take scientifies sources into account, girls puberty should end at age of 16, and for the guys it may takes a year longer. Now, the consequencies of the puberty period may last longer, so some people will expirience a growth spurth after that, but scientifficaly the puberty is over at the age of 16 for the ladies and 17 for the men. After that, cognitively and emotionaly those people should be taken as a grown up people.

 

[el henry]

Well, if we want to take scientifies sources into account, girls puberty should end at age of 16, and for the guys it may takes a year longer. Now, the consequencies of the puberty period may last longer, so some people will expirience a growth spurth after that, but scientifficaly the puberty is over at the age of 16 for the ladies and 17 for the men. After that, cognitively and emotionaly those people should be taken as a grown up people.

I don’t doubt that puberty ends differently for the genders, but I’m willing to disregard that for equality’s sake.

And the age limits are a different issue than the quads. I say quads for all or quads for none. I’m probably the only person on the Forum who would then say, and I’ll pick quads for none, because blade to ice skills are more important to me than skill rotating in the air, but that’s just me.

And TBH, if I cared more about the ladies, I might fight it more. So it’s easier for me to say

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I mean its self-serving in that it gets rid of something that is so very obviously unfair towards some of their skaters (I'm not saying its intentional but its still unfair). Why shouldn't they try to get rid of something that is unfair? In my opinion, if they don't allow quads, they have to also not allow triple axels. The current rules allow some skaters to use their "weapon" jumps but not others, giving them an artificial advantage in the short program. And I think that we absolutely should not wait until the next Olympics. If we wait, then Olympic results will be determined by unfair rules. And this is these girls' livelihood, what they've worked towards their entire life. And in countries as competitive as Russia, some might only get one chance. And the ISU should do everything in their power to make the rules as fair as possible for the athletes competing in these Olympics. A triple axel will still be very useful since an axel jump is required in both programs, while skaters can get away with completely omitting certain other jumps from both programs.

I was more alluding to them hedging their bets for medals by having more than 3 entries. They are already primed to sweep the World podium. They (and no country IMO) should be afforded more entries to still monopolize the podium. If skaters were singularly represented and their flag didn’t go up it would be better but I would bet the Russian federation would suddenly no longer be interested in pushing for more than 3 entries if their flag wasn’t also attached to those medals. Some were fine with Lipnitskaia bombing in the individual because at least Sotnikova was there to win the gold. Now with such a huge amount of talent they would love to hedge their bets.

Canada would also love to send way more athletes in hockey and curling to the Olympics but are only allowed 1 team. The Olympic curling tournament has 16 teams.. and if they were seeded by current World rankings, Canada would get 10 entries in men and 8 in women. Not exactly a “worldly” tournament.

 

[flanker]

I was more alluding to them hedging their bets for medals by having more than 3 entries. They are already primed to sweep the World podium. They (and no country IMO) should be afforded more entries to still monopolize the podium. If skaters were singularly represented and their flag didn’t go up it would be better but I would bet the Russian federation would suddenly no longer be interested in pushing for more than 3 entries if their flag wasn’t also attached to those medals. Some were fine with Lipnitskaia bombing in the individual because at least Sotnikova was there to win the gold. Now with such a huge amount of talent they would love to hedge their bets.

Canada would also love to send way more athletes in hockey and curling to the Olympics but are only allowed 1 team. The Olympic curling tournament has 16 teams.. and if they were seeded by current World rankings, Canada would get 10 entries in men and 8 in women. Not exactly a “worldly” tournament.

More canadian teams to defeat? Bring them in

 

[4everchan]

I am fine with quads in sp but after the olympics. Not before. Such a rule needs to be included at the beginning of a cycle. Also, if Russia wants quads in the sp for ladies, they should expect that quads like twist and throws be included in the pairs sp as well, and at a decent base value. I find it a bit hypocritical that some Russians are so outspoken about quads in pairs, about how it is dangerous, too acrobatic etc and thus bv is lowered down, and then, there is a big " give us quads movement". I am certainly not getting it.