Flutzing

[seniorita]

That's not true.
Even with the strictest definition, jumps are defined by takeoff edge, presence or absence of toepick assist, and direction of rotation in the air relative to the direction of travel on the takeoff edge

is the flip/lutz defined by the set up also?For years I could distinguish the flip from lutz from the entrance -and the lean of the body, without looking at the edge until all these edge calls appeared.

Also there are some skaters-i cant recall names but i m sure i ve seen it, who dont set up the flip the traditional way and look like they setting up for lutz with the long going backwards set up, if their edge is clearly inside from the beginning, this can be called a flip or they will be punished for flutz because of the set up?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The ISU is also in charge of Development. It has to keep the money rollling in the organization. The 6 Big Feds have money. The US relies on the Ladies for its income. That said, the US in cooperation with the ISU refuses to recognize a true lutz, the definition of which is meaningless to them.

There is one and only one definition for each jump regardless of the Air Turns. The Air Turns are soley responsible for the Base Values. and are not part of the definition. The take-offs for a single salchow, a double salchow and a triple salchow are all the same. The landings, too are the same unless the skater uses a step sequence of a half loop, e.g. to connect. How much value the half loop has is immaterial. There's money in keeping all the exceptions to the definition down so that the beginning skaters will keep their interest and not leave the sport. Those kids bring in money.

 

[Mathman]

Joe, just so I understand what the issues are, I would like toi know your position on this question.

Suppose a skater attempts a flip jump, but screws up and goes off the outside edge by mistake.

Would you call that jump a Lutz and give the skater the full Lutz base value (6.0 points, instead of 5.3 for a flip)?

 

[herro]

Every thing in Sport is dangerous. How many people are riddled with athritus because of sport? Add danger to the list of sundry items that make it a sissy sport.

Haha, figure skating is definitely a dangerous sport - there's no use denying that.Actually, I hate that people think skating is a sissy sport! It really isn't, and it takes so much more time and effort to master than some other major, popular sports out there! Excuse me for getting carried away here.

But what I was trying to convey is the danger in landing a jump with the blades touching the ice at an angle that opposes the overall motion of the body. Let's say that a skater measures his pre-rotation on a triple loop to be 1/4 of a turn. Then if she does 3 full rotations starting from the exact point of takeoff (counting the 1/4 turn pre-rotation) then she would land with her landing blade perpendicular to the trajectory of her body - not a physicist here, so I may get details wrong here - but that'll mean she'll stop and probably fall hard. It's like doing a T-stop, right? In order to land a jump successfully and get a flow-out, you need to land with your blade going in the direction of your motion.

 

[herro]

OK, but I still have the same question.

Should a skater get credit for a Lutz if he screws up his flip?

Yes, the question...to be honest, I don't have a single, straight-forward answer to the question but my gut is telling me right now that a skater should not receive credit for a jump s/he does not perform; and that includes the "flutz," the "lip," the "toe-axel" and whatever else we can name. I feel that if this kind of rule was implemented, skaters and coaches will maybe put in so much more effort in learning jumps properly with the proper takeoffs; and coaches might work harder to set a really strong foundation for their skaters when they are first learning jumps, so that their basics are rock solid. The current system has penalties for incorrect jumps (with edge calls) but that's definitely less intimidating than having your lutz attempt be named a flip because you "flutzed."

As technical as this new scoring system is, it's still so awfully subjective. I think skating will always be subjective - unless maybe if robots take over scoring (!). I had a hard time with Yuna Kim because I love her as a skater so much, but I also knew that she often does "lips" and her jumps are sometimes underrotated (like some of her second lutzes in her FP last season - hey, she's human!) - but judges give certain skaters the benefit of the doubt.

Anyways, what do you guys think?

 

[Blades of Passion]

*ALL JUMPS CAN PRE-ROTATE UP TO 1/2 TURN*

That's simply how jumps work.

Less pre-rotation is the best technique with regards to the Lutz, but even there you can take off from an outside edge and have your toepick foot leave the ice 1/2 turn into the jump as acceptable technique.

Pre-rotating a lot less should give a skater more leeway in terms of landings being called underrotated or not. Yu-Na Kim has amazing technique, for example. I've seen a couple Lutzes from her that were very slightly short of the 1/4 turn mark, but they shouldn't be downgraded because she doesn't pre-rotate barely at all. She's getting more rotation in the actual air, even when not at her best, than a 3Lutz where the toepick leaves the ice facing forward.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Well, I'm never sure about all the exceptions in Figure Skating against the Definitions. I can understand the rationale for keeping it all as easy as possible.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, just so I understand what the issues are, I would like toi know your position on this question.

Suppose a skater attempts a flip jump, but screws up and goes off the outside edge by mistake.

Would you call that jump a Lutz and give the skater the full Lutz base value (6.0 points, instead of 5.3 for a flip)?

MM - It would be called (colloquially) a LIP. It is not following the definition of a Flip, it gets a demerit somehow in the Protocols. If you follow the Rules moreso than the Definitions, a skater will get credit for an attempted Flip less whatever the current deductions are for WETs. Since I'm a Definitions-type of guy, I would say there was no Flip and the score for a LIP is 0. But I am overruled by the placating ISU's efforts to prevent the sport from being an exacting sport as are all other sports. It's keeping it pagaent-like.

If, however, the accidental change of edge could be called a Lutz if there are no other single lutzes in the program but we both know there will be. One attempted Lutz has to be nullified according to the 8-9 jumps permitted.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

is the flip/lutz defined by the set up also?For years I could distinguish the flip from lutz from the entrance -and the lean of the body, without looking at the edge until all these edge calls appeared.

Also there are some skaters-i cant recall names but i m sure i ve seen it, who dont set up the flip the traditional way and look like they setting up for lutz with the long going backwards set up, if their edge is clearly inside from the beginning, this can be called a flip or they will be punished for flutz because of the set up?

As for the lean, I have never seen a skater on a back inside edge leaning to the outside, but I'm willing to check it out on a youtube if anyone has one. Actually lean is not part of the definition but counter rotation is, so if a skater is actually leaning outside but on a back inside edge he is still doing a wonky Flip. He was not able to counter rotate because he rotated in the Flip way.

Liashenko, remember her? she emphasized the back outside edge while doing a Lutz, and in these times should get full base value for what she did. The only demerit she should get in todays times is in the PC section for not doing a few basics before the back outside edge take off.

 

[herro]

is the flip/lutz defined by the set up also?For years I could distinguish the flip from lutz from the entrance -and the lean of the body, without looking at the edge until all these edge calls appeared.

Also there are some skaters-i cant recall names but i m sure i ve seen it, who dont set up the flip the traditional way and look like they setting up for lutz with the long going backwards set up, if their edge is clearly inside from the beginning, this can be called a flip or they will be punished for flutz because of the set up?

Nope, not at all. Some setups are more popular than others, but really you can enter the jump in whatever fashion you like. For example, Elena Gedevanishvili does a triple lutz (or used to do a 3Lz) from a series of turns - making the actual jump far more difficult.

 

[Mathman]

MM - It would be called (colloquially) a LIP. It is not following the definition of a Flip, it gets a demerit somehow in the Protocols.

I wasn't asking how the ISU protocols handle this situation. I was asking how YOU would handle it if you were in charge.

The jump went off a back edge. By definition it is not a flip. There is no such jump as a lip. So it must be a Lutz.

Is that how you would score it, under the definition?

 

[seniorita]

Imagine the conversation if we had videos of Mr Lutz ...and discovered that he was flutzing

 

[herro]

Here's a cool video of Scott Hamilton explaining the jumps. He demonstrates some jumps in super slow motion, and you can really see how the take-offs look and how many rotations he does in the air.

It also demonstrates my point about loops exactly - you have pre-rotation before takeoff, but you land with the blade in the same direction as the trajectory of your body - otherwise, you wouldn't be able to land properly. If you purely take the take-off to be the point at which the blade leaves the ice after pre-rotation, then for a loop, you always do less than the required revolutions - which is in the nature of the jump.

Thought it was an interesting video and wanted to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNH49SjoWjw

 

[Mathman]

Imagine the conversation if we had videos of Mr Lutz ...and discovered that he was flutzing

I don't know about Mr. Lutz, but here's Donald Jackson taking off for the first triple Lutz in competition at 1962 Worlds. Looks good to me!

http://www.efootage.com/video-clip-images/1962/129416/Donald_Jackson.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wasn't asking how the ISU protocols handle this situation. I was asking how YOU would handle it if you were in charge.

The jump went off a back edge. By definition it is not a flip. There is no such jump as a lip. So it must be a Lutz.

Is that how you would score it, under the definition?

I presume the take-off jump (or pic as I've learned to call it) was on the flat of the blade. For me if there is no edge there is no name of jump - over and out, but for WET lovers it could have a jump name with deductions for WET.

I have never heard a Tech Assistant make a verbal call about the name of a jump or even an intended jump but he does call out Wrong Edge Take Off.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Imagine the conversation if we had videos of Mr Lutz ...and discovered that he was flutzing

I wouldn't be surprised if he sued the ISU because of infringement of his Jump.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Here's a cool video of Scott Hamilton explaining the jumps. He demonstrates some jumps in super slow motion, and you can really see how the take-offs look and how many rotations he does in the air.

It also demonstrates my point about loops exactly - you have pre-rotation before takeoff, but you land with the blade in the same direction as the trajectory of your body - otherwise, you wouldn't be able to land properly. If you purely take the take-off to be the point at which the blade leaves the ice after pre-rotation, then for a loop, you always do less than the required revolutions - which is in the nature of the jump.

Thought it was an interesting video and wanted to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNH49SjoWjw

I am not sure the connection between the take-off and air rotations before landing for Edge Jumps. It seems many posters don't really care about how a skater takes off for a jump or even the actual rotations of the jumps, but for some odd reason they care about under rotations on the landings. mess up your take offs, cut short your rotations as less then intent, but be sure to land whatever you do near perfectly

 

[Mathman]

I presume the take-off jump (or pic as I've learned to call it) was on the flat of the blade.

No, I am asking about the case where it was an outside edge (as verified by slo-motion replays).

I have never heard a Tech Assistant make a verbal call about the name of a jump or even an intended jump but he does call out Wrong Edge Take Off.

Now I am confused. I thought that is exactly what the technical specialist does -- calls out "triple Salchow!" or "Serpenstine step sequence!"

Then if he thinks there might have been something wrong with it, he also calls out "Review!" Then afterward they huddle with the Slo-mo and decided whether there was an under-rotation, an edge call, or whatever. Isn't that the way it goes?

 

[mskater93]

Now I am confused. I thought that is exactly what the technical specialist does -- calls out "triple Salchow!" or "Serpenstine step sequence!"

Then if he thinks there might have been something wrong with it, he also calls out "Review!" Then afterward they huddle with the Slo-mo and decided whether there was an under-rotation, an edge call, or whatever. Isn't that the way it goes?

Actually, the TC calls and any of the three call call out review if they think something is iffy/screwy/wrong

 

[Mathman]

Actually, the TC calls...

Really? I thought the Technical Specialist was the main guy and the Technical Controller just provided some sort of leavening oversight in case a problem came up.

What exactly is the role of the Technical Specialist, then?

Who calls the levels?