Goal setting

[pinesiskin]

My daughter just turned 10 and competing at pre-pre level. Her coach is trying to fast track her and catch her up to the skaters who started earlier than her. He says his goal is to get her to juvenile level before she turns 12 because you can’t compete at juvenile level past 12, is that right? Or can’t move up? I’m still learning. He explained it and I thought I had it, but clearly didn’t!

Anyway, he wants her on the ice 12 hours a week (6 days) and off-ice three days a week. My daughter is up for all of this, mind you, she loves it. But she’s not setting long term “I want my double axel by 12” because she’s 10 and doesn’t understand the implications of competion levels etc. not to mention two year out goal setting. If you ask her if she wants a double axel she’d say, of course, I want quads . She has landed several doubles but nothing consistent so far, and no where near double axel.

Anyway, what I want to know is, is this even a realistic goal of the coach’s? I know, I know, it depends on the kid, but on average? Is she going to be competing at Juvenile level in two years if she’s only at pre-pre? It’s a demanding schedule and I know she can handle it and loves it, but I keep thinking “to what end this schedule?” And if the “end” isn’t even realistic, I’d just rather know.

Thank you!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

My daughter just turned 10 and competing at pre-pre level. Her coach is trying to fast track her and catch her up to the skaters who started earlier than her. He says his goal is to get her to juvenile level before she turns 12 because you can’t compete at juvenile level past 12, is that right? Or can’t move up? I’m still learning. He explained it and I thought I had it, but clearly didn’t!

Anyway, he wants her on the ice 12 hours a week (6 days) and off-ice three days a week. My daughter is up for all of this, mind you, she loves it. But she’s not setting long term “I want my double axel by 12” because she’s 10 and doesn’t understand the implications of competion levels etc. not to mention two year out goal setting. If you ask her if she wants a double axel she’d say, of course, I want quads . She has landed several doubles but nothing consistent so far, and no where near double axel.

Anyway, what I want to know is, is this even a realistic goal of the coach’s? I know, I know, it depends on the kid, but on average? Is she going to be competing at Juvenile level in two years if she’s only at pre-pre? It’s a demanding schedule and I know she can handle it and loves it, but I keep thinking “to what end this schedule?” And if the “end” isn’t even realistic, I’d just rather know.

Thank you!

Hi.

Wondering first if you ever switched head coach from when you asked for advice on it months ago. Also, I'm confused of the statement "trying to fast track her and catch her up to skaters who started earlier than her." IIRC it was mentioned in an earlier thread that your daughter started skating at age 3. How much sooner did these other skaters start? One year b/c as someone that started at age 2/3 myself, there's not much going on at that age other than learn to skate classes and basics. So IDK what he's fast tracking, the only thing that would make any kind of sense (and none of this does) is that other skaters are possibly progressing quicker than she. ? Which is totally natural. I think the on and off ice amounts he wants right now is kind of pushing it, and I've been coached by some of the best of the best in my career.
Are you able to clear any of this up so we can offer somewhat sound advice? I will tell you though, all kids progress differently. And 4 months ago she was testing for Pre Juv, did she pass? I'm lost.

 

[pinesiskin]

Yes, sorry, I didn't realize these posts are being read in context with one another and as I didn't update from earlier posts, I can understand the confusion.

To catch you up, he is the same head coach and we stayed with him after my last post. I have learned that our coach really values our business and is a bit jumpy about poaching, but we have been very happy with him overall and still feel that he's the best choice for my skater.

The other two coaches moved to another rink and my skater took lessons with them at their new rink over the summer. One of them is her moves in the field coach and told my daughter at some point (in May I think) to have me sign her up for the June test in pre-J. Well, I did. But when she demonstrated her test to her head coach, he said she wasn't ready, so we ended up cancelling the night before. There was more in all of this (including a week home after that test cancellation bc of Covid) and it was not fun. By then the competition season was in full-swing so there wasn't much MIF time after that. Meanwhile, she has a great new team (a new MIF coach and an occasional spin coach) at our home rink and this new MIF coach said she wants her to wait to test next month for pre-J. She says that in her experience pre-J is one of the most important of the MIF test--that her skaters who get honors in testing at this level sail through J and have a much better foundation for all the tests to follow. She expects her to have tested J before the end of the year in MIF. Also, our head coach is one of the ones who likes to get MIF out of the way as soon as possible.

While my skater began skating at three years old, it was never consistent until about a year ago, when she was nine. She took private lessons from a coach from age 4-5 twice a week (plus I think maybe a tot class or something) and a second coach after that from six until nine with many breaks for summer camp and nearly a year and a half off during the pandemic. I didn't realize it then, but this second coach has a very poor reputation at our rink for teaching skills, and everything really (other than being nice). In addition, she/we learned nothing about moves in the field, competitions, or how to progress. Once I began to recognize that there was a whole world that I knew nothing about (moves in the field and USFS testing, not to mention competitions and the difference between ISI and USFS) it felt like I had to pry information out of her and she always seemed slightly exasperated by my questions.

It was around this time (last fall) that I began to hustle up and down the "wall" as we call it, that famous line of moms, dads, and caregivers who hold all the information. Our rink is a hockey rink. It is giant, it is fancy, and it has no shame in making skating feel second class. To give you reference, our "Olympic rink" was just modified to NHL size and our freestyles all end at 5pm. School gets out at 3, by the time you're on the ice it's 3:30. After that it's hockey and classes.

I diligently interviewed every one of those parents who stare at all the skaters and coaches ice and watched and listened until we decided on our coach. I still think it was the best move. That was in November 2021, so what, nine months ago? In that time she passed two MIF tests and landed her axel by March, then her first ever USFS competitions (no test at first, then pre-pre) and she has done well. She has a few doubles, but none consistently. The difference is amazing in the coaching and her progress and we are so proud of her. And SHE is thrilled!

By "fast track" I only mean this: my daughter is ten and his goal with her is national qualifying competitions, which I believe begins at 12 (If you ask her, this is her goal too.) I think this is what he means by juvenile free skate level. He said that some skaters get lucky and can get an extra year if their birthday falls after September, so there must be a deadline. I can get more clarity when he gets back from his native country where he is on vacation, but if anyone else can break this down in English as their first language, much appreciated.

Apparently she will need all her doubles well integrated into her program and have her double axel by then too. If I'm wrong about this, then I'm wrong. As you can see, I'm still learning as I go.

Another aspect of the "fast track" comment is that many of the skaters at our rink and other rinks around us have been competing for years and have been skating consistently.

I'm interested by your comment that this amount of ice time is "pushing it". It is actually normal at our rink for any competitive skater at age ten and up, and sadly, from what I see, six and seven years and up to skate ten plus hours a week. We have one coach who brings people to the Olympics and means business. (We did not choose her). She has a whole posse of kids under 9.

Not that this is the best move. Note that we did not go with her. I think it's better to work smarter rather than harder, but obv still work hard, so long as it's fun and brings satisfaction. My husband has half a firm line at 5 days a week. I can see his point.

Anyway, we have seen a lot of progress, but if my understanding is correct, that he wants to try and progress her from pre-pre to Juvenile/double axel in two years...I just have no idea if this is realistic.

Ultimately, she is loving the journey, so far, so we'll just keep plugging away, learning more, listening, observing, and...mostly driving.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you for clearing things up.

I really think you should be discussing these things with her head coach.

I will stick by that for her age and level this is pushing it for training time, there are senior skaters that don't even train that much. I was an elite, I'm now a pro and I've had many of the top coaches in the world, some that are now retired from the sport, I've been to the top, and have taken other skaters there as a pro, so like I said: I stick by what I've said about training time at her age with growing and so on. Does she ever have time off from skating to recover?

I am glad she likes it but there has to be some give and take here with her time and recovery.

 

[pinesiskin]

Thank you for your insight, it is appreciated.

Just to gauge, in your experience, what is the training schedule for a competitive skater at age ten?

The whole reason I posted this question in the first place is that the schedule is strenuous (especially with school). If on top of that, the goal itself is outside the margin of realistic, then that is important information as well.

I am asking on an anonymous forum, because I am seeking unbiased feedback. No other coach is going to say anything that would counter another one in person.

At the end of the day, as much as I trust my daughter with our coach, he is making a living through coaching her. I haven’t seen any sign that would indicate untrustworthiness, but human frailty is what it is. The goal of getting her from pre-pre to Juv in two years, was a bit of a flag. Maybe this isn’t unusual and I have no idea, who knows? But I thought it worth checking out.

 

[gkelly]

By "fast track" I only mean this: my daughter is ten and his goal with her is national qualifying competitions, which I believe begins at 12 (If you ask her, this is her goal too.) I think this is what he means by juvenile free skate level.

You might want to log into US Figure Skating Members Only and poke around the Competing pages under Skater Journey. The website isn't as well organized as one might hope, but if you've got time to browse and bookmark pages that are relevant to your questions, you can find a lot of information there.

To summarize the answer to this question:

There are five levels of qualifying competition: Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, and Senior.
Juvenile has an age limit in that female competitors must be 12 or under as of Sept. 1 (boys can be 13 and under). Intermediate also has an age limit (17 and under for both sexes).

There is no minimum age for any level in the US qualifying system. Although most Juvenile competitors are 10-12 years old, occasionally some skaters enter that level at younger ages.

The minimum requirements are tests.

In order to compete at the Juvenile level in a qualifying competition, the skater needs to have passed the Juvenile Free Skate test. The prerequisites for that test are Juvenile Moves in the Field (and all lower levels) and PreJuvenile Free Skate (and all lower levels).

The Juvenile Free Skate test requires an axel but does not require double jumps.

There are hundreds of competitors at that level across the country, at a wide variety of skill levels.

Some skaters choose to move into Juvenile competition as soon as they can squeak past the tests, just so they can meet the goal of entering qualifying competitions.

Others, who are most talented and competitive, will compete at Juvenile level having passed most or all of the Moves in the Field tests and with easy clean doubles including double axels, and they are now allowed to attempt one triple.

The vast majority of Juvenile competitors fall somewhere in between -- attempting most of the doubles but not necessarily with good technique, and not double axels.

Entering qualifying competitions, with double jumps, is a much more realistic goal than expecting to have a competition-ready double axel or to otherwise be competitive with the top juveniles in the country.

And then, at age 13, the skater would need to move up to Intermediate level. The very top skaters at that level will include double axels and some triples, but most do not, or their attempts are still in beginning stages. The biggest difference between Juvenile and Intermediate for the average competitor is that Intermediate requires a short program.

So if a skater has an opportunity to compete Juvenile at 12 before aging out, that would allow for qualifying level experience before the extra requirement of skating two programs.

(Not to confuse you, but as a heads-up, next year there will be changes to the names of the tests and to the way prerequisites for competition work. Don't worry about that now, but be aware as you spend the next year getting familiar with the current system, that we will all need to learn some new details in the not-too-distant future.)

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you for your insight, it is appreciated.

Just to gauge, in your experience, what is the training schedule for a competitive skater at age ten?

The whole reason I posted this question in the first place is that the schedule is strenuous (especially with school). If on top of that, the goal itself is outside the margin of realistic, then that is important information as well.

I am asking on an anonymous forum, because I am seeking unbiased feedback. No other coach is going to say anything that would counter another one in person.

At the end of the day, as much as I trust my daughter with our coach, he is making a living through coaching her. I haven’t seen any sign that would indicate untrustworthiness, but human frailty is what it is. The goal of getting her from pre-pre to Juv in two years, was a bit of a flag. Maybe this isn’t unusual and I have no idea, who knows? But I thought it worth checking out.

I sent you a DM.

 

[Katyaever]

From my personal experience and observing many others... Yes, it is possible to get to juv in 2 years. My daughter competed pre-pre/pre in her first "competition season" and the following year competed juvenile at Regionals. She had all her doubles and double double combos, but no double axel at the time. Same with many other kids at our rink.
I can't recall the specifics of her schedule (it's been a while), but I think she trained regularly, but not as much as you outlined in the schedule above. I think it's definitely a reasonable goal. As for the schedule, I would start with whatever you feel comfortable with and watch her progress. If you and your daughter feel she needs more, you can always increase the number of lessons/skating time per week.

 

[pinesiskin]

You might want to log into US Figure Skating Members Only and poke around the Competing pages under Skater Journey. The website isn't as well organized as one might hope, but if you've got time to browse and bookmark pages that are relevant to your questions, you can find a lot of information there.

To summarize the answer to this question:

There are five levels of qualifying competition: Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, and Senior.
Juvenile has an age limit in that female competitors must be 12 or under as of Sept. 1 (boys can be 13 and under). Intermediate also has an age limit (17 and under for both sexes).

There is no minimum age for any level in the US qualifying system. Although most Juvenile competitors are 10-12 years old, occasionally some skaters enter that level at younger ages.

The minimum requirements are tests.

In order to compete at the Juvenile level in a qualifying competition, the skater needs to have passed the Juvenile Free Skate test. The prerequisites for that test are Juvenile Moves in the Field (and all lower levels) and PreJuvenile Free Skate (and all lower levels.

The Juvenile Free Skate test requires an axel but does not require double jumps.

There are hundreds of competitors at that level across the country, at a wide variety of skill levels.

Some skaters choose to move into Juvenile competition as soon as they can squeak past the tests, just so they can meet the goal of entering qualifying competitions.

Others, who are most talented and competitive, will compete at Juvenile level having past most or all of the Moves in the Field tests and with easy clean doubles including double axels, and they are now allowed to attempt one triple.

The vast majority of Juvenile competitors fall somewhere in between -- attempting most of the doubles but not necessarily with good technique, and not double axels.

Entering qualifying competitions, with double jumps, is a much more realistic goal than expecting to have a competition-ready double axel or to otherwise be competitive with the top juveniles in the country.

And then, at age 13, the skater would need to move up to Intermediate level. The very top skaters at that level will include double axels and some triples, but most do not, or their attempts are still in beginning stages. The biggest difference between Juvenile and Intermediate for the average competitor is that Intermediate requires a short program.

So if a skater has an opportunity to compete Juvenile at 12 before aging out, that would allow for qualifying level experience before the extra requirement of skating two programs.

(Not to confuse you, but as a heads-up, next year there will be changes to the names of the tests and to the way prerequisites for competition work. Don't worry about that now, but be aware as you spend the next year getting familiar with the current system, that we will all need to learn some new details in the not-too-distant future.)

Dear GKelly,

This is AH MAZ ING! Thank you thank you thank you for explaining this to me. I’d heard snippets of all of this before but have never fully understood it or been able to put it together. This makes so much sense to me now!

 

[pinesiskin]

From my personal experience and observing many others... Yes, it is possible to get to juv in 2 years. My daughter competed pre-pre/pre in her first "competition season" and the following year competed juvenile at Regionals. She had all her doubles and double double combos, but no double axel at the time. Same with many other kids at our rink.
I can't recall the specifics of her schedule (it's been a while), but I think she trained regularly, but not as much as you outlined in the schedule above. I think it's definitely a reasonable goal. As for the schedule, I would start with whatever you feel comfortable with and watch her progress. If you and your daughter feel she needs more, you can always increase the number of lessons/skating time per week.

Thank you thank you for sharing your experience! Not understanding all of this was really giving me some anxiety! Many good wishes sent your way.

 

[gliese]

My husband has half a firm line at 5 days a week. I can see his point.

Please keep her at 5 days a week as long as you can. Even though she is young, she needs multiple days a week to recover. She's growing right now and training daily will not be healthy (ever, but especially right now). When skaters get older, they may choose to train more, but at that point they are old enough to understand the implications and consequences of doing so and how to make a schedule that allows for enough recovery.

 

[Sunshine247]

It’s better to slowly add training time instead of jumping into a 12 hour week (that might be too much at her age anyway). Off ice is important for staying injury free too. And frequency and quality of training and practice can be more important than overall ice time. By that I mean 1-1.5 hrs, five days a week are better than two days a week for 3 hours at a time. And if your skater is losing focus, it might be time to get off the ice so no bad habits or technique sneak in.

If your DD is trying to catch up, it could happen. But be careful about the goals you set since it could ruin her enjoyment of the sport. Fair warning, there’s a bigger difference in skills needed to compete successfully between levels as you advance. And IJS is where the fun really kicks in! There’s a lot to the mental game too. Learning to compete is as important as nearly everything else.

Maybe try for some short term goals first to keep her motivated. And have a strategy to deal with setbacks and plateaus. It’s a marathon and not a sprint. Well, sort of a race against age at first. lol. Hopefully you have many many years and hours at the rink ahead of you! Take lots of pictures! And I’ll put in a plug for volunteering with your club. I’m sure they need help. That’ll get you through the wall and you’ll learn a lot just from being able to chat with other parents.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I'm interested by your comment that this amount of ice time is "pushing it". It is actually normal at our rink for any competitive skater at age ten and up, and sadly, from what I see, six and seven years and up to skate ten plus hours a week. We have one coach who brings people to the Olympics and means business. (We did not choose her). She has a whole posse of kids under 9.

Not that this is the best move. Note that we did not go with her. I think it's better to work smarter rather than harder, but obv still work hard, so long as it's fun and brings satisfaction. My husband has half a firm line at 5 days a week. I can see his point.

I would have a very firm line at 5 days a week, especially at her age! Absolutely no need for 6 days a week. Even at Elite level we always had weekends off! The head coaches were very firm about this and I think they were right. Everybody needs some rest and recovery time. Things that weren't going well on Friday were quite often miraculously improved by Monday, despite there having been no ice time inbetween.

 

[pinesiskin]

That makes so much sense! Thank you for sharing. Any idea how many hours each day on ice for ten? One hour, hour and a half, five days/week?

 

[pinesiskin]

It’s better to slowly add training time instead of jumping into a 12 hour week (that might be too much at her age anyway). Off ice is important for staying injury free too. And frequency and quality of training and practice can be more important than overall ice time. By that I mean 1-1.5 hrs, five days a week are better than two days a week for 3 hours at a time. And if your skater is losing focus, it might be time to get off the ice so no bad habits or technique sneak in.

If your DD is trying to catch up, it could happen. But be careful about the goals you set since it could ruin her enjoyment of the sport. Fair warning, there’s a bigger difference in skills needed to compete successfully between levels as you advance. And IJS is where the fun really kicks in! There’s a lot to the mental game too. Learning to compete is as important as nearly everything else.

Maybe try for some short term goals first to keep her motivated. And have a strategy to deal with setbacks and plateaus. It’s a marathon and not a sprint. Well, sort of a race against age at first. lol. Hopefully you have many many years and hours at the rink ahead of you! Take lots of pictures! And I’ll put in a plug for volunteering with your club. I’m sure they need help. That’ll get you through the wall and you’ll learn a lot just from being able to chat with other parents.

Love this, thank you so much for your feedback. It really helps.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

An hour or 1.5 hours for 4-5 days a week on ice tops, which includes a 45 min lesson with head coach and one with her dance/MITF coach.
Hour or so of off ice training (pilates..etc...).

 

[WednesdayMarch]

An hour or 1.5 hours for 4-5 days a week on ice tops, which includes a 45 min lesson with head coach and one with her dance/MITF coach.
Hour or so of off ice training (pilates..etc...).

This. Perfect. You also need to play it by ear, as such. All ten year olds are not the same.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

This. Perfect. You also need to play it by ear, as such. All ten year olds are not the same.

Exactly, as I've said upthread initially, not all kids her age are the same.