- Joined
- Jan 14, 2008
Karen eats. She also skates beautifully (and it would be a shame for that not to be appreciated just because of how she happens to be built).
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Golden West Championships (Aug. 28-31, Culver City, CA)
- Thread starter Sylvia
- Start date
Karen eats. She also skates beautifully (and it would be a shame for that not to be appreciated just because of how she happens to be built).
Well, maybe more scarlet than either violet or pink. I loved both of her dresses very much.
Wow, that's a lot of growth in height. She does look like a big girl now. In fact, she was a couple of inches taller than me in her skates (and I'm 5'3).
It was my first time watching her in person, so I can't really tell. Her jumps didn't strike me as especially high, but they didn't strike me as especially low either, for girls her size. The noticeably bigger jumps were from girls who were noticeably bigger/taller.
I didn't think it was quite as soft/gentle as Ave Maria. The beginning & ending bits were both pretty good. But, like I said, I thought the music got lost for a stretch in the middle.
Thanks for pulling up the stats. It might also be interesting to look at Caroline's SB's.
2006: GW (173.30), JW (169.25)
2007: GW ( 169.29), JW (171.84)
She usually skates her GW programs very clean, plus the tech panel probably isn't as dogged about UR's and edge calls, and maybe the judges are more generous with PCS. It's interesting that her scores in the most important competitions tend to agree with GW scores pretty well.
For her SP warm-up, she did 2A's, 3R's, 3F, and lots of 3F/3T.
For her LP warm-up, she did 2A's, 3R, 3F, 3F/3T (lots!), then she did a single salchow as the warm-up concluded. She also did 3F/2T in the little warm-up just before her programs. So I feel like she's been concentrating a lot on the 3F/3T, and 3R in terms of the jumps. I really don't understand why her technique for the 2A isn't getting much of a look. It seems to have steadily gotten worse over the last 2 years.
The new programs debutted by Vise/Trent didn't catch your attention?
You know, I was telling my bf about what a good couple this is, and how they nailed the first throw quad, etc. But when they actually skated, it was a little disappointing for both of us. Somehow it just didn't generate as much excitement as NNN/Leftheris' program, even though V/T scored higher.
That is true, I wondered about how much impact that would make... But I also saw someone on another forum say that they thought the 3T in the 3/3 in the LP was under-rotated. I had a bad view of that combo from my seat. I wonder if we'll ever find out whether there were downgrades in her GW program...
vlaurend, I'm so happy to hear that Karen Zhou does eat, and she's just naturally built like that! She did seem to have good power and stamina despite her figure.
And taller than Mingzhu Li in shoes.
I read that as a positive. Any improvements she makes in power will have to be gradual and hopefully she'll continue to be healthy. She seemed to happy and uninjured.
It almost sounds like you picked up/ordered the DVDs of the senior ladies SP and LP. Golden West had a photographer and a cameraman. I'm regretting not looking further into that. Perhaps I should call someone at the AYFSC ...
When I saw her practice on Christmas, the only jumps I recall her doing was the 3F/3T (lots and lots). Mirai was working on her lutz takeoff. Wish I had a recording of that 3S from Golden West.
I wish. But we'll get better quality videos of her programs, as well as other skaters', later on in the season anyway.
I wish Caroline would work on her lutz takeoff too, as well as the 2A. But yeah, she needs to fully rotate that 3/3. With her growth spurt and all, I'm sure it's a lot of work to just keep it consistent.
Well, Caroline said it's the first time she's gotten 7 triples ratified in a program, so I think you're right, the score must reflect the elimination of a spin that normally scores high for her. Plus maybe she didn't get all the highest levels on spins and spirals. Anyway, a PB with one fewer spin this early in the season has gotta make her feel reassured!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Caroline replacing all her Lutzes with loops raises some questions.
1. A solid loop and a mild flutz have the same value, 5 points. Do you think that Caroline has put the Lutz on the shelf for the whole season? For good and all?
2. Overtraining the loop jump has driven some young skaters (most prominently Tara) into early retirement with degenerative hip condiditons. Michelle Kwan had to drop the loop from her repertroire when her hip situation became too bad. I'm not sure whether Yu-na Kim's injuries are specifically related to the loop jump or not.
Is this a risky strategy for the long run?
1. A solid loop and a mild flutz have the same value, 5 points. Do you think that Caroline has put the Lutz on the shelf for the whole season? For good and all?
2. Overtraining the loop jump has driven some young skaters (most prominently Tara) into early retirement with degenerative hip condiditons. Michelle Kwan had to drop the loop from her repertroire when her hip situation became too bad. I'm not sure whether Yu-na Kim's injuries are specifically related to the loop jump or not.
Is this a risky strategy for the long run?
Golden West allowed hand held videotaping, so someone might up-load it to YouTube. More professional videotaping was done by Hurd Videos. They claim that the videotaping is broadcast quality, but Golden West wasn't covered by any TV stations as far as I know. They had a (digital) camera operator and a video operator at Golden West. The videos can be transferred to DVD.
I've found a website: http://www.hurdvideo.com/
It doesn't look like you can order online, but their phone number can be found on that website for those interested. (I know of these things because Hurd Video had an advertisement in the Golden West Championships 40th anniversary program booklet. Remember to mention that and me if you make an order.
)As for detailed protocols of Caroline's programs, I haven't seen a posted link to them.
If you got that from another Chinese website, please share.
Caroline's PBs at other competitions
SP TES 38.50, 2008 WJC
SP PCS 26.28, 2007 SA
LP TES 62.22 with a fall or 61.63 (take your pick), 2007 GPF or 2007 WJC
LP PCS 53.44, 2007 GPF
maximum total of 180.44
Caroline's scores at Golden West
SP TES 38.36
SP PCS 27.05 with an unconfirmed time deduction
LP TES 63.36
LP PCS 53.23
total 181.00
Yes, they are spot on. What could be better is Caroline's presentation marks, especially in the LP. Her presentation marks didn't climb much last season. Hopefully, she'll hold on to her technical scores and increase the quality of her presentation as the season progresses. If her technical scores go up (due to levels or even jump quality), so much the better.
Mathman said:
Well, she did have a 3Z-2T in the LP, so it's not like she's not using it at all anymore. I heard she practiced correcting her lutz entry a lot last summer, and she took a lot of falls and bruises because of that. I don't know what she's been practicing on this summer (besides obviously the 3F-3T and the 3S, and the new programs). I kinda wish she would take on a jumps specialist coach just to work on her 3Z, 3S, and 2A (and maybe she has, we just haven't heard about it).
Maybe she's still working on her 3Z, and when she feels ready she'll bring it back. It would be a relatively minor change to the choreography. It's kinda smart to combine the 3Z with 2T (as opposed to a single 3Z, if she had to choose), because while it's required to have a -GOE, probably it's attenuated by the 2T, if it's a well-done combination over all.
As for over-training the loop. It looks like she's training it a little bit more now, and in fact her 3R looked less in danger of being downgraded than last year (remember that her 3R< cost her dearly at 2008 JW). But compared to her JW programs, she only has one more solo 3R in SP + LP. Anyway, it looks like she's still working on the 3F much more than the 3R, and I'd worry more about the high kick on the 3F causing injuries than the 3R.
If you got that from another Chinese website, please share.
Sorry, no Chinese website to share. Just via "personal communication."
Agreed. Her coach talked about working on her speed earlier this year. I think that's really key to higher PCS this season. Her transitions are already a bit improved.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
As for the lutz, she is a lovely skater, and she could turn that into a flutz (more comfortable) and just receive the -1 deduction. She has many other elements to make up for it.
In the short program, Caroline can be successful with either the 3Lz or the 3R. With fresh legs, she can pull off a mild flutz. She could even possibly due a true lutz if she didn't do the triple-triple.
In the long program last year, her 2nd 3Lz attempt was more aptly described as a 3rd 3F. Plus she was prone to under-rotate and fall on it. She was just too tired by that point in the program. Perhaps she could do a 2nd mild flutz if she put it the 1st half of her program. And it's better to use the time from the removed spin to rack up presentation points rather than to rest the legs for a slightly harder jump.
So many ladies have difficulties with the lutz. Mathman's previous calculations bore that out, as the 3R averaged the most points. The majority of the 2Lz attempts in the recent Courchevel JGP received negative GOEs! But even the strongest ladies have difficulty with it. I recall that in the 2006-2007 season, Yu-Na fell on the 3Lz 3 times and Ashley 4 times. Mao flutzes. Caroline is not in bad company.
Mathman does makes a worrying point about Michelle's loop related hip problems since Caroline seems to be using Michelle's technique.
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In the long program last year, her 2nd 3Lz attempt was more aptly described as a 3rd 3F. Plus she was prone to under-rotate and fall on it. She was just too tired by that point in the program. Perhaps she could do a 2nd mild flutz if she put it the 1st half of her program. And it's better to use the time from the removed spin to rack up presentation points rather than to rest the legs for a slightly harder jump.
So many ladies have difficulties with the lutz. Mathman's previous calculations bore that out, as the 3R averaged the most points. The majority of the 2Lz attempts in the recent Courchevel JGP received negative GOEs! But even the strongest ladies have difficulty with it. I recall that in the 2006-2007 season, Yu-Na fell on the 3Lz 3 times and Ashley 4 times. Mao flutzes. Caroline is not in bad company.
Mathman does makes a worrying point about Michelle's loop related hip problems since Caroline seems to be using Michelle's technique.
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Her 3 inches of growth in and of itself should improve her speed and the rest of her presentation. And she won't have to worry about the other ladies jumping over her.
Don't penalize them "much" for it?! It's already changed the whole jump lay-out for Mao & Caroline, pushing them to do more 3R's, which are more damaging to their hip joints. If edge deductions cost more, everyone would be switching to doing more loops, as that's the obviously jump to repeat if you have all five triples and can't repeat one of lutz/flip.
The detailed protocols from Golden West were published online two years ago but not since then. I know someone who was able to see some of the protocols from this year, and Caroline Zhang's 3Lz+2T had an 'e' edge call but none of her jumps were downgraded in the FS. The -1 deduction in her SP was for a time violation and her layback spin was called a level 3 (she received level 4 for the layback in the FS).
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The Tech Panel calls the Levels. Correct? and they are loosely based on some sort of written document? correct? and they are not subjective???
Thanks for the info, Sylvia. I'm surprised her SP layback was called level 3, but I'm not surprised she got 'e' deduction in the LP, because from where I was sitting, it was an obvious flutz.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
Levels are not "loosely" based on some sort of written document, they ARE based on what gains a feature per the documentation. They are NOT subjective. Where levels get a little subjective are the following times:
Spiral - 1 meter on a change of edge. If it's close, it's hard to review and the tech panel doesn't get out a ruler and go measure the flat.
Footwork - Was that a counter or did the skater change the edge and do a three turn?
Spins - per the rules, difficult variatons of position and changes of edge must be at minimum 2 revolutions. when a skater is just under or over the 2 revolutions, a review is generally called for and the skater has to hope the video picked it up as at least 2 (it depends on the angle at which it was video taped). This is why many coaches push skaters to get three + in the difficult variations - so there is no question and no review call.
The writer came there to watch everyone, not just Caroline. The report is inaccurate about the jumps, though. http://www.catslair.com/skating/2008/GW/
Caroline's free skate dress was red-violet and fuschia. Del Arbour, the costume designer, needs to consider that Caroline will be an a few centimeters taller by March
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