Great Article About Virtue and Moir and Olympics

[Alba]

But I think PJ is wrong. She implies that the judges are not sophisticated enough to appreciate Tessa & Scott's program. However, the requirements for a story in a program (and this is clearly spelled out in the ISU communications) is that if there is a story, it must be clearly understandable from the skating.

If V&M made a program with a story that was not easily understandable, then already they are not a 10 by the rules.

And finally there was that salute, hand over heart, give us the gold, play the national anthem move, at the end. I am not a fan of salutes in programs, and possibly some of the judges didn't like it either, and it was the last thing they saw.

I have to read the rest of the info you provided with calm, but I just want to say that I do agree with you about this.
I already said in another topic that I loved the program but I hate it the ending. Very self-referential, it was over the top.
That's Marina's idea of love, love, unison, two bodies, one heart, one mind and bla bla bla. :disapp:

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, I'm sure that was her intent. I still don't like that ending. In fact, I am not crazy about people doing "career retrospective" programs anyway. I suspect I am not alone. Certainly Delobel and Schoenfelder's 2010 FD, which was a career retrospective, also did not score as well as I expected either.

However, in the US, when the national anthem is played, we are all supposed to strike that pose with with our hand over our heart, and sing the anthem. That's why you see US athletes who earn a gold medal putting their hands over their hearts and singing the national anthem. We learn it in kindergarten. I don't know what Canadian etiquette is for singing their national anthem, but in the states we see that so often, that's what immediately comes to mind.

A similar look at scores in the SD:

SHORT DANCE
	D&W	V&M	GOE D&W	GOE V&M
Finnstep seq 1	7.86	6.93	0.86	0.93
Finnstep seq 2	8.00	7.93	1.00	0.93
Twizzles	7.36	7.14
Rotational Lift	5.50	5.21
not touching step	11.00	10.43
TOTAL TES	39.72	37.64
PCS	D&W	V&M
Skating Skills	9.68	9.54
Transitions/Link FW	9.57	9.43
Perf/Execution	9.93	9.82
Comp/Choreo	9.86	9.71
Interp/Timing	9.89	9.82

The interesting point here is that on balance, the judges thought V&M's first Finnstep sequence was better (higher GOE), but because they lost a level, their score for the element was lower. And in fact, there was some sloppiness in D&W's first sequence, but it wasn't during any of the key points.

 

[PlaysInTheDirt]

Thank you dorispulaski, for taking the time to explain the mistakes and scoring!

 

[humbaba]

Thanks dorispulaski for giving us this detailed explanation of the scoring. I enjoy reading your posts so much, because you are so knowledgeable and fair. You really are a jewel.

 

[Olympia]

Thanks so much, Doris!

 

[TMC]

Thanks dorispulaski for giving us this detailed explanation of the scoring. I enjoy reading your posts so much, because you are so knowledgeable and fair. You really are a jewel.

+3 :agree:

 

[dorispulaski]

Here's links to the full d&w and v&m fds with British commentary and most of the crowd noise filtered out. By far the best way to watch them!
D&W
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lrFwokp3z48
V&M
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqM6-Fh-o-0

 

[Sandpiper]

I don't understand what's so awful about the hand-to-heart gesture. I mean, I'm not a big fan of it, but why on earth should that factor into the scores? Seems like a weird thing to fuss about.

 

[Antilles]

I find it interesting that a few people mentioned Tessa and Scott's technical levels and scores trending downward in their last two seasons, but no one connected that problem with the split of Sphilband and Zoueva. Their levels and execution started to fall as soon as Igor left the picture. I'm not blaming Zoueva, but it's an awfully strong coincidence.

I'm glad this article was less heated and more balanced. I'm Canadian and I've always thought our commentators and media have a huge pro-Canadian, anti-any-close-rival bias. It frustrates me that they often create controversy where none exists. I'm glad this article stated that if you question all of V&M's "losses" then you have to question all of the wins too.

 

[GF2445]

At this stage now, i think tessa and scott are at peace with their results. Not the dream result but they loved the experience. The feeling of 'loss' which they feared would happen if they lost in Sochi didnt happen which was great for them.

Yeah, when Igor left, things began to go a little pear shaped with tessa and scott in terms of the technical mark.

 

[NorthernDancers]

It's all well and good to try to explain the marks as provided, but that means actually believing the marks are what they should be. My argument over the last couple of years with more than these teams is that there appears to be a different standard of judging applied to different teams. It's happened within country in Canada, and it certainly has happened internationally a whole lot. It was particularly bad this year internationally. Cup of Russia was a complete joke with regard to scores. And there were plenty of really intelligent and knowledgeable people pointing this disparity out with these 2 teams over the last couple of years as well. V/M were not as strong in the team event in Sochi (but not as bad as the difference in marks implied), but they were exceptional in the individual event. And that's where I have a real issue with the scores. And I'm not the only one.

If we can consider Beverly Smith fairly rational when it comes to skating commentary as stated at the opening of this thread, than this article is also worth a read. It was written after the individual event SD.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/something-rotten-in-the-state-of-sochi/

The reason why I prefer V/M over D/W has nothing to do with their nationality. To me V/M bring the dance in ice dance better than any team in at least a generation. Their lines, depth of edges, degree of difficulty, and musicality is unparalleled in my opinion. As an example, Funny Face was quintessential V/M with exceptional difficulty which looked effortless, musicality with incredible attention to detail in the hands, in the feet, in the fingers, in the glances, in the way they played off each other and the music. I still see new things when I watch that program. And then there was Carmen, which will be talked about for many years to come. The things that I feel should be rewarded in ice dance, and are there in print in the rules, are not being scored. It's been a trend not just with V/M vs D/W. D/W read this trend better than V/M, and tactically planned their programs to win the Olympics. But the funny thing about trends: before you know it they change again. Next season, with 1 less lift and more time for dancing, and changes in the SD, should be interesting.

And btw...It is possible to appreciate both teams, and appreciate the effort both have expended (and we have all enjoyed) over so many years, and still prefer one over the other (either one), and still believe that the judging system needs some overhauling....

 

[TMC]

To me V/M bring the dance in ice dance better than any team in at least a generation. Their lines, depth of edges, degree of difficulty, and musicality is unparalleled in my opinion. As an example, Funny Face was quintessential V/M with exceptional difficulty which looked effortless, musicality with incredible attention to detail in the hands, in the feet, in the fingers, in the glances, in the way they played off each other and the music. I still see new things when I watch that program. And then there was Carmen, which will be talked about for many years to come.

This. You took the words right out of my brain. I feel exactly the same way, except I prefer the American apples to the Canadian oranges so if you don't mind I want to say that.... ....To me D/W bring the dance in ice dance as only one other team has been able to in at least a generation. Their lines, depth of edges, degree of difficulty, and musicality is unparalleled in my opinion. As an example, Notre Dame de Paris was quintessential D/W with exceptional difficulty which looked effortless, musicality with incredible attention to detail in the hands, in the feet, in the fingers, in the glances, in the way they played off each other and the music. I still see new things when I watch that program. And then there was Scheherazade, which will be talked about for many years to come...

I enjoy both teams, but Davis and White touch me chills-wise in it seems exactly the same way as Virtue and Moir touch you. 5-6 years ago V/M made my jaw drop more than D/W, but the Americans caught up by 2011/2012 and since then the teams have been equal in my eyes if not in the judges' (equal in that I enjoy D/W more but I appreciate V/M and understand if/when the judges prefer/red them. If the tables were turned and V/M had all the GPFGs and so on, I would accept that without a question). Neither team's skills, edges, musicality, glances and or hand movements have to take away from the other team, or mean that because one team has some quality the other team cannot have it or it must needs be much inferior in it. They are both groundbreaking and awe-inspiring and their dances will be talked about for years to come. Davis and White won the Olys this time because they planned their programs (FD especially) to win. They used great music, put in an insane lift and went all in in everything. Tessa and Scott could and possibly would have won - or at least the scores would have been closer - if they had done a bit more calculating. Maybe they should have done a retrospective last season and brought Carmen to Sochi? But we'll never know.

 

[leafygreens]

It's been reported (?) that they've put their condos up for lease and left Canton. So I'd assume if they do continue, it would be with a new coach.

Reported where?

 

[Alba]

I don't understand what's so awful about the hand-to-heart gesture.

To me that looks a bit pathetic. As I said I find that self-referential, over the top.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of it, but why on earth should that factor into the scores? Seems like a weird thing to fuss about.

I don't if that's a key factor, but I suppose it does have to do with the choreo, intepretation performance etc.
You're telling a story and if a judge doesn't like that ending, like myself and other people I suppose, it will effect the scoring a bit in PCS.

 

[Alba]

If we can consider Beverly Smith fairly rational when it comes to skating commentary as stated at the opening of this thread, than this article is also worth a read. It was written after the individual event SD.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/something-rotten-in-the-state-of-sochi/

I share your opinion about V&M, but I have problems with Beverly Smith tbh. She is obsessed with the judges and controversy when any canadian is involved, in any kind of competition (see her article about worlds).
She take for good, and as facts, when Tarasova or Averbukh said V&M should've won but not when they say the same thing about Sotnikova.

I think she is knowledgeable, she is not Christine Brennan, but she is biased. Therefore, in my eyes, she does lose her credibility.

I find it interesting that a few people mentioned Tessa and Scott's technical levels and scores trending downward in their last two seasons, but no one connected that problem with the split of Sphilband and Zoueva. Their levels and execution started to fall as soon as Igor left the picture. I'm not blaming Zoueva, but it's an awfully strong coincidence.

It should've effected also D&W though, but it doesn't seems so.

 

[TontoK]

Igor is the technical master, I agree. However, both teams went with Marina, so the technical aspect of coaching should be a wash.

I completely understand that at the level these couples are skating, there is nothing remotely resembling "lazy" or "lack of desire." That said, almost every knowledgeable person-in-the-know seems to agree that D/W were the hardest working team in the world over the past quad. I think D/W surpassed V/M technically during the Canadians' injury, and then they worked so hard that Tessa and Scott couldn't catch back up.

Edit to add: When I first watched the live telecast of the Sochi FD (before D/W scores), I thought it likely that V/M would win the FD, but not by enough to offset their SD deficit. I really thought their FD was better, and it was the first time all season that I appreciated it. On rewatch some months later, I really can't decide which was better. That said, I am NOT a technical dance analyst by any means.

 

[Antilles]

I think the technical scores of all the Zoueva teams dropped after the split, but I'm just going on memory. When V&M and D&W were getting mostly level fours and a few threes before the split, they both started getting more threes and the odd twos after the split. I think the Shibs tech scores also dropped. However, when other teams started working with Sphilband, such as C&L, their levels went up. I think of the partnership, Sphilband was the stronger tech coach and Zoueva was better with choreography.

 

[Coltrocks12]

@ Doris you have the skill and knowledge to take what I was arguing about what I saw in the program and break it down in a way I couldn't figure out how to do. Are you a skater, coach, judge etc. or just a really smart fan? Anyway thank you for the detailed look and finally explaining why the Finnstep sequence was downgraded for V/M. Love reading your posts.

 

[caitie]

If we can consider Beverly Smith fairly rational

We can't.

 

[Coltrocks12]

After re-watching the videos, I definitely think that D/W outskated V/M in both artistry and technicality. I agree with the scores. Also it was a slight synch on the first and third twizzle passes for V/M the second one was in synch (I thought it was the second based on memory, but alas I was wrong, hey it happens!) Meryl/Charlie were in synch in all of their twizzles. Also the announcer found a slight mistake on a V/M lift entry that I didn't catch the first time. Also in the description of the rules about story lines I thought that the V/M music didn't have enough contrast for them to build the story arc through the dance as well as D/W music did. If Canada is mad at Marina I think they should get on her for not giving them a good enough program. I think that the program was too soft with not enough contrast, and then they didn't skate it as well as D/W did theirs on top of it. Slight difference but enough for D/W to win by about 4-5 points.

I don't mind any of the moves that V/M did in answer to Sandpiper's question of what's wrong with the hand to heart gesture. I just think they needed some mixture of more drama in amongst the softness instead of a busy piano part. They needed to build hills and valleys, highs and lows. I also thought the program was slightly boring and they looked sluggish at the end of the program. It wasn't as quick or light as Meryl/Charlie and it didn't have the contrasts of hard and soft, playful and dark, etc that D/W had. Thank you Doris for posting the video I needed to watch it again to remember everything correctly.