Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

[janetfan]

Janetfan I totally agree. And I am so envious of your tagline or name or whatever we can them. Janet Lynn will always be my favorite. I skated when she was the best and as much as we all should have felt defeated by how amazing she was, she could only uplift everyone around her.

I think Mao has a special quality that may or not be best rewarded by CoP. I wish her the peace of mind to go out onto the ice in Tokyo and just skate for herself. This will be very tough to do, but it is what I hope for her. If she does, I will be giving her a standing ovation in my living room. Medal or no medal.

Thankyou for your post and it is nice hearing from a skater and fan who has their roots in 6.0.

Here is something that I agree with from a 2002 LA Times article:

"Frank Carroll, who has coached many Olympic skaters, once called Lynn, who was not one of his pupils, "the most beautiful, wonderful skater who ever lived."

"She flew, she absolutely flew."
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Just one of the great qualities that made Janet so special was her sense of freedom on the ice.

I don't know if she would have enjoyed the restraints of CoP as Janet
skated to - and with the music - sharing her feelings and emotions with the audience like few we have ever seen.

 

[Mathman]

If anything COP have seem to widen the gap between the men and women seeing how it has effected the two disciplines differently; As the men field grows larger more competitive and artistic the womens field dwindles and becomes a game of who can fully rotate;

I think what happened was that the ladies were flutzing, underrotating, etc., all the time, but in the past they got away with it and now they can't.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think what happened was that the ladies were flutzing, underrotating, etc., all the time, but in the past they got away with it and now they can't.

which I guess means that ladies skating was getting too far ahead of itself. The girls were learning all these hard jumps and jump combos without good technique. Miki learned that lesson with the quad and Joannie saw it coming....and fixed the problems she had.

 

[janetfan]

I think what happened was that the ladies were flutzing, underrotating, etc., all the time, but it the past they got away with it and now they can't.

Are fans attracted to any sport that is determined by mistakes they can't see made by invisible judges?

I think the NFL (American Football) has WISELY limited the use of intstant replay.
They only allow a coach a few challenges per half, and if the challenge is wrong the team loses a valuable timeout. So replays are limited and used judiciously.

The NFL has more than enough money and technology to keep a camera on every player for every play. If they were to try that what we would see would be something that had little resemblance to the game we are used to seeing.

A team of offficials viewing every player on every play would easily find a penalty on ever single play. Don't even think about disputing that, on the line of scrimmage so much holding and grabbing is going on and defensive secondary players and receivers too are pushing and grabbing more than ever.

So the NFL has made the wise decision to keep the game basically called Live on the field by the officials. Much of what they see we as fans get to see. Beside the genral Tv replays we see - if the officials do use instant replay we get to see EXACTLY what they see. It offers trust to the fans even if they disagree with a call against their home team.

I think skating has gone too far with the edge and ur calls but strangely enough it likes to award points for falling Please try explaining the genius of that rule to a new skating fan and you will probably get a strange look.or they might laugh in your face.

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

I think ISU should get rid of instant replay and give the competiton back to the skaters and the fans. Until they begin to get more fan friendly the interest will continue to drop. It is really not so hard to figure this out or come to this conclusion if you love skating. If you love yourself and your own relationship to the way it is now then just hope it is still aroung in a few more years.

 

[Medusa]

I think ISU should get rid of instant replay and give the competiton back to the skaters and the fans.

Back to the skaters? Hmpf. Imagine it would still be 6.0. Every idiot can see that Kim's (and Rochette's etc.) jumping technique is far superior to Asada's. But Asada wins every competition with a jump layout like this one: 3A, 3F-3R, 3S, 2A-3T, 3Lz-3R, 2A, 3Lz. 8 Triples, one of them a 3A - plus two 2As. Under 6.0 - I am quite sure that would be her jump layout. Every 2nd Triple of the 3-3s and the 2A-3T is pre/underrotated by more than 1/4 of course. As is the Triple Axel most of the time. And there is a magnificent Flutz towards the end of the program (and Asada's Flutz was great, huge height, great distance, beautiful landing).

Rochette and Kim would never be able to compete with that, both have just ordinary programs compared to that, Kim only 6 Triples, Rochette no 3-3. Yes, it doesn't matter that both have amazing technique, against the wunderkind with those 3-3s and that 3A...

In my opinion the CoP took away some of the magic. Though I never got the magic. The magic was that a fresh-faced baby-lady could appear on ice in a cute pastell dress and skate with such joy and freedom, with so many edge mistakes and underrotations - and become the new darling, Olympic Champion, World Champion! Oh, how pretty and cute she is, how she fought through her jumps and pulled off those 3-3s! Look here, America, look here, World - that's what life should be like, so full of joy, happiness, without any burdens!

Yeah, as I said, never got that part...

 

[sleepymom]

I asked if Mao's decline was good for skating in general? Maybe it can't be helped but she certainly does have star power and fans all over the world.

I recall the little blonde pixie who regularly skated circles around her opponents back in the early 70's but still didn't win the Gold medal. Skating was aware of her star power and by how disgruntled fans were becoming seeing lesser skaters placed above her at the biggest events. So they did something about it by way of reducing the value of school figures and introducing the short or technical program.

She still didn't win :disapp: but I think it is of interest that the ISU recognized she was unique and had something most of the other skaters didn't have.

I think Mao falls into this category and if she does retire or become a non-factor I think it will take skating a couple of years to recover and to replace her.

Don't know whether you actually mean this for Asada, but changing rules to prop-up start skater sounds like unfair favoritism absolutely. I didn't know they really did it on 70's but if this happens this again this time, I think then figure skating should be removed from Olympic. At that point, it's not sports anymore. - Maybe it wasn't not really a sports under 6.0,and just sort-of sports under COP -

For the UR calls, maybe they should put sensors to each players toe-picks and blades and use human eyes as secondary input? WIth the technological advancement, this should be possible, IMO.

 

[janetfan]

Back to the skaters? Hmpf. Imagine it would still be 6.0. Every idiot can see that Kim's (and Rochette's etc.) jumping technique is far superior to Asada's. But Asada wins every competition with a jump layout like this one: 3A, 3F-3R, 3S, 2A-3T, 3Lz-3R, 2A, 3Lz. 8 Triples, one of them a 3A - plus two 2As. Under 6.0 - I am quite sure that would be her jump layout. Every 2nd Triple of the 3-3s and the 2A-3T is pre/underrotated by more than 1/4 of course. As is the Triple Axel most of the time. And there is a magnificent Flutz towards the end of the program (and Asada's Flutz was great, huge height, great distance, beautiful landing).

Rochette and Kim would never be able to compete with that, both have just ordinary programs compared to that, Kim only 6 Triples, Rochette no 3-3. Yes, it doesn't matter that both have amazing technique, against the wunderkind with those 3-3s and that 3A...

In my opinion the CoP took away some of the magic. Though I never got the magic. The magic was that a fresh-faced baby-lady could appear on ice in a cute pastell dress and skate with such joy and freedom, with so many edge mistakes and underrotations - and become the new darling, Olympic Champion, World Champion! Oh, how pretty and cute she is, how she fought through her jumps and pulled off those 3-3s! Look here, America, look here, World - that's what life should be like, so full of joy, happiness, without any burdens!

Yeah, as I said, never got that part...

But I wonder if you can see any of this medusa, or are you one of those people who believes everything they read. We are being TOLD about some of these calls without the benefit of seeing what the officials are seeing. I am glad you are so trusting - I am not and don't like what I can't see and judge for myself.

Your skating world is one of mysterious calls and where reputation means everything and results are hidden from the fans.
Thanks but no thanks, I prefer something more open.

 

[janetfan]

Don't know whether you actually mean this for Asada, but changing rules to prop-up start skater sounds like unfair favoritism absolutely. I didn't know they really did it on 70's but if this happens this again this time, I think then figure skating should be removed from Olympic. At that point, it's not sports anymore. - Maybe it wasn't not really a sports under 6.0,and just sort-of sports under COP -

For the UR calls, maybe they should put sensors to each players toe-picks and blades and use human eyes as secondary input? WIth the technological advancement, this should be possible, IMO.

There is alot of stuff about Janet Lyyn on YouTube. It is easy to find and any serious skating fan should know a little about her. She basically created freeskating as we know it today and her tapes are still shown by coaches to their students today particularly when teaching music interpretation.

I respect your opinion but CoP does seem to change it's rules every year.
If they decided to rethink rules about edges or UR's it would have absolutely nothing to do with it's viabilty as an Olympic sport. Zip, zero, zilch.

I think anybody honest would admit we saw some very mediocre and unattractive skating at COR and COC. Skating can do better and it seems silly to defend such an inferior product when some rule changes could improve it.

 

[sleepymom]

There is alot of stuff about Janet Lyyn on YouTube. It is easy to find and any serious skating fan should know a little about her. She basically created freeskating as we know it today and her tapes are still shown by coaches to their students today particularly when teaching music interpretation.

Hm..I am young and casual viewer of figure skating, so I don't know about Janet Lynn or figure skating history that much. Now you explained, I see how Janet Lynn is hold in the figure skating and in your eyes, but still, for anyone if she/he is great enough it's fine to change the rules to prop-up doesn't sound like a (Olympic) sport.

It might be just way of saying it is the bigger issue with me. If this is done for the good of figure skating, yes, but for one great figure skater because she can't win under current rule?

I respect your opinion but CoP does seem to change it's rules every year.
If they decided to rethink rules about edges or UR's it would have absolutely nothing to do with it's viabilty as an Olympic sport. Zip, zero, zilch.

I consider COP is developing system still, and there are still area to tweak. I actually think current UR penalty is too harsh and too general, and there's need for change, but it is still on-going.

For mediocre skating with current lady skaters, I am actually think that we'll see more exciting programs with the new generation of skaters who trained under COP. Unfortunately that might mean very difficult time for skaters like Asada - who I think really had bad luck to be in-between systems - but looking at Joannie and Ando's case I think she can come back stronger.

 

[heyang]

I think part of it is in her head. As with Midori Ito, I'm sure the Japanese Federation is putting the pressure on Mao as the long running assumed favorite for Japan in Vancouver. I think the 'pressure' is causing her to give too much care to her jumps and this is excaberating the issues she had with her technique. The more she 'fails', the more anxious which leads to more failure, etc. She needs to find the 'fun' again.

I really don't think it's COP. The lower scores are a result, but that would be true for everyone who hasn't improved their technique.

 

[Wicked]

Personally I think what is hurting Mao is that she has decided that the only way she will win the OGM is triple axel, triple axel, triple axel. If she could let go of this idea, I think she'd be fine.

I don't understand why some people think the 6.0 system was so much better. Skaters and fans often had no idea why someone got a 5.8 instead of a 6.0 because scores were never explained. To use Janetfan's NFL analogy, it would be like a team getting penalized 15 yards without being told why! At least now we know why a skater gets the scores he or she gets, even if we don't always agree with the calls. And under the CoP system, changes can be made to improve it. How do you improve a 6.0 system that is completely subjective?

 

[Mathman]

I think the main reason for the decline of interest in figure skating in the United States is simply cultural drift.

In the 1940s and 50s the Miss America contest was huge. Wow, just look at Bess Myerson smiling and holding those roses in her evening gown, now that's entertainment!

In the time of Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill, when you won an Olympic medal or world championship, what you really won was the title of America's Sweetheart.

Nowadays, we are not so much interested in sweethearts and princesses as we were back then. We are more into rock 'em, sock 'em athletes like Serena Williams.

Other forms of entertainment, same thing. We do not any more look to Hollywood to create a string of glamous beauties for us to admire. We like Meryl Streep better. Anyway, I really do not believe that changing the scoring system will make much difference one way of the other in terms of the public appeal of skating. JMO.

 

[janetfan]

Hm..I am young and casual viewer of figure skating, so I don't know about Janet Lynn or figure skating history that much. Now you explained, I see how Janet Lynn is hold in the figure skating and in your eyes, but still, for anyone if she/he is great enough it's fine to change the rules to prop-up doesn't sound like a (Olympic) sport.

It might be just way of saying it is the bigger issue with me. If this is done for the good of figure skating, yes, but for one great figure skater because she can't win under current rule?



I consider COP is developing system still, and there are still area to tweak. I actually think current UR penalty is too harsh and too general, and there's need for change, but it is still on-going.

For mediocre skating with current lady skaters, I am actually think that we'll see more exciting programs with the new generation of skaters who trained under COP. Unfortunately that might mean very difficult time for skaters like Asada - who I think really had bad luck to be in-between systems - but looking at Joannie and Ando's case I think she can come back stronger.

Thanks for your post. I think if you look into figure skating history you will be interested in hearing about some of the changes and innovations
that have taken place over the years.

In the era I am referring to figure skating competitions consisted of school figures and a free skate. Each part was worth 50% towards a skaters total score.

School figures were almost impossible to broadcast on TV and the vast majority of skating fans found them incredibly dull to watch. Many skaters did not like practicing them and if they were not very , very good at them they had almost no chance to win a medal.

As skating began to grow primarily with the help of TV broadcasting revenues fans began to get upset that the best free skaters were not winning enough medals. Since fans only saw the free skate poertion they couldn't understand why skaters with very average at best abilty were winning.

Then along came Janet Lynn. Never that good at school figures she was the best free skater the world had ever seen. Even today, 40 years later she is still considered one of the greatest free skaters of all time.

Fans saw her win the free sjate and were captivated by the beauty and expressive nature of her skating. They coudl not understand why she wasn't winning.

At the 1969 Worlds in Lyon, FRANCE a young Janet came in fourth and missed the podium. At the medal ceremony the FRENCH crowd began booing/hissing when the medal winners took the podium. The crowd did not stop until an ISU Official led Janet, in street clothes, onto the ice to take a bow. The crowd cheered her and then settled down and let the medal ceremony continue.

This was in France. ISU officials , with prodding from TV networks in North America and Europe knew something had to be done. If skating was to continue to grow a change would be necessary.

What followed was that the school figures were reduced in value and what we know today as the short program was introduced.

Skating would now have two parts of a three part competition which could effectively be shown on TV to fans all over the World. It would be easier for fans to see more skating and to understand the results better.

This post is too long and I suggest if you are interested to read a little more about this. And it is not MY opinion that Janet was a great skater, she is universally acknowledged as one of the all-time greats.

 

[Medusa]

At the 1969 Worlds in Lyon, FRANCE a young Janet came in fourth and missed the podium. At the medal ceremony the FRENCH crowd began booing/hissing when the medal winners took the podium. The crowd did not stop until an ISU Official led Janet, in street clothes, onto the ice to take a bow. The crowd cheered her and then settled down and let the medal ceremony continue.

This was in France.

What's with the capital letters? Don't you think that's a tad insulting, to, you know, French people and France? If it's just a joke, forget I ever said anything, I am a sucker for politically incorrect jokes. But if it's not a joke, you might want to change it. Because French are people too. And not a bunch of socialist cheaters, waiting for every opportunity to ridicule US-Americans.

 

[janetfan]

What's with the capital letters? Don't you think that's a tad insulting, to, you know, French people and France? If it's just a joke, forget I ever said anything, I am a sucker for politically incorrect jokes. But if it's not a joke, you might want to change it. Because French are people too. And not a bunch of socialist cheaters, waiting for every opportunity to ridicule US-Americans.

It was NOT a joke. It's sole intention was to show that Janet's ovation from the crowd was NOT a biased, nationalistic response.
You were 100% wrong. Congratulations ...and "DUH"

and I am half FRENCH (but the other HALF of me is much BETTER)

 

[kandidy]

Off the topic, but compulsory should be reintroduced to young skaters.

 

[Mathman]

Just to tack a footnote onto the history, Janet Lynn's biggest fan in the upper echelon's of the ISU was Sonia Bianchetti. Bianchetti spearheaded the move away from school figures, against the objections of the old guard. The United States, by the way, was among the federations that dragged their heels and continued figures in national competitions for some years after they were dropped from international events. The U.S. was aso among the last federations to conform to the CoP (some believe this worked to the disadvantage of Michelle Kwan.)

Anyway, Mrs. Bianchetti claims the elimination of figures as her greatest triumph -- even as the CoP which eventually followed was the work of the Devil.

Off the topic, but compulsory should be reintroduced to young skaters.

Many people blame the elimination of figures for the weak basic skating skills and lack of edge control that seem to plague more recent generations of skaters. If I remember correctly, Janet Lynn herself made this point (even though figures were not her forte) at her now-famous speech at the USFSA banquet a couple of years ago.

 

[bekalc]

The NFL has more than enough money and technology to keep a camera on every player for every play. If they were to try that what we would see would be something that had little resemblance to the game we are used to seeing.

You cannot compare the NFL to figure skating. The NFL is not a judged sport. The sport of the NFL is all about who scores the most touchdowns/field goals. In the sport there's always a bit of fouling, rough house going on. It's part of the game. Calling fouls, was only suppose to be at the most obvious egregious case.

Figure skating is different. Figure skating IS a judged sport. The athletes all knew this when they started it. Since it is a JUDGED sport. Than the elements that the skaters put out need to be scrutnized and judged on the basis of quality.

For example, the flutzing rules, are about correcting an unfairness/unjustness. It was never fair to the people who did the 3lutz correctly, that someone who was doing it incorrectly could get the same amount of points for it.

Same goes with underrotations. It was never right or fair that people could get away with cheated jumps.

 

[janetfan]

Just to tack a footnote onto the history, Janet Lynn's biggest fan in the upper echelon's of the ISU was Sonia Bianchetti. Bianchetti spearheaded the move away from school figures, against the objections of the old guard. The United States, by the way, was among the federations that dragged their heels and continued figures in national competitions for some years after they were dropped from international events. The U.S. was aso among the last federations to conform to the CoP (some believe this worked to the disadvantage of Michelle Kwan.)

Anyway, Mrs. Bianchetti claims the elimination of figures as her greatest triumph -- even as the CoP which eventually followed was the work of the Devil.



Many people blame the elimination of figures for the weak basic skating skills and lack of edge control that seem to plague more recent generations of skaters. If I remember correctly, Janet Lynn herself made this point (even though figures were not her forte) at her now-famous speech at the USFSA banquet a couple of years ago.

Thankyou for some really interesting gems mm.
I think Janet also believes that learning figures helps a skater to learn better balance - which she said can help reduce stress/injury factors in young skaters as they are developing their skating skills.
I also seem to recall that she is against all this arm flapping

 

[sleepymom]

Thanks for your post. I think if you look into figure skating history you will be interested in hearing about some of the changes and innovations
that have taken place over the years.
...<.

Thanks for the explanation, I enjoyed it. I watched Janet Lynn's Sapporo program on youtube, but the video quality wasn't that great to truly enjoy it. Sad...

About Janet Lynn, to me it sounds like that the issue was with the system then, Janet Lynn was just a glaring example. And the actual issue was the the score in school figures - a.k.a. compulsory - result wasn't really delivered to spectators well. which might have been true then, I don't think this is true at this point. If they can be more open about judging and be consistent, e.g. show slomo of every jumps etc. that will go further with making things understandable to viewers. - I know, when the pigs fly. -