Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

[Biellmann]

I don't know about the U.S. but in Canada we have had to come to a recognition of our deplorable treatment of natives. White Europeans have historically and, it can be argued, continue to be prejudice against natives. By forcing them on to reserves and attempting to wipe out their language and religion we engaged in cultural genocide. This really isn't debatable by anyone with any kind of education. It is what happened.

One thing you need to learn - not everything has something to do with skin colors, actually nothing has something to do with skin colors. PEOPLE do things, this has nothing to do with pigments in skin.
You can't put people into groups, it's as if someone would say "brown haired people did this and this", "green eyed people do this and this..." It's nonsense.

 

[andromache]

IMO, it astounds me how defensive some posters are. You are attacking those of us who critique the program by assuming we are biased Americans brainwashed by our media, or that we lack a basic history education, or that we just hate Evgenia and/or Russian skaters, instead of engaging with those of us who have explained why we find the program offensive and/or in poor taste. Disagree with us, fine, but do so by explaining your perspective rather than attacking us.

Sure, some posters are being pretty nasty about the program, but why do you engage with them instead of engaging with those of us who are being reasonable?

 

[ancientpeas]

One thing you need to learn - not everything has something to do with skin colors, actually nothing has something to do with skin colors. PEOPLE do things, this has nothing to do with pigments in skin.
You can't put people into groups, it's as if someone would say "brown haired people did this and this", "green eyed people do this and this..." It's nonsense.[/Q

You know what? I wrote a response to you that was nice and consolatory acknowledging your points. And then I read your post again and decided something: If you are going to be insulting to me, and you have been twice then there is no reason to bother. I'm not even going to try for a pithy ending. It is what it is. Best of luck to you.

 

[[email protected]]

No one in this thread is denying that white Americans committed atrocities against Native Americans. Similar atrocities were committed within the Russian Empire. It's embarrassing that you, the guy upthread, and apparently your favorite historians are in complete denial about that.

May be it's embarassing to you but not to me. Colonialism is considered to be bad although all current states were created after someone conquered the other. But there are different shades of grey. Russian colonialism while changing the traditional life of the natives was not about taking their land like the Americans did in Florida, for example https://books.google.ru/books?id=gG...page&q=Osceola the Seminole mine read&f=false or killing the natives in millions or bringing along slaves from Africa. But you can keep insisting that it's all the same in the view of some perfect morale.

 

[[email protected]]

IMO, it astounds me how defensive some posters are. You are attacking those of us who critique the program by assuming we are biased Americans brainwashed by our media, or that we lack a basic history education, or that we just hate Evgenia and/or Russian skaters, instead of engaging with those of us who have explained why we find the program offensive and/or in poor taste. Disagree with us, fine, but do so by explaining your perspective rather than attacking us.

Sure, some posters are being pretty nasty about the program, but why do you engage with them instead of engaging with those of us who are being reasonable?

I think Alexz was very eloquent in his explanation that I fully share. I could be even more direct. You can think whatever you want about this program and I will agree with you: it's plain stupid and bad taste (unlike Zhenya's program which I find amazing). But there are gazillions of stupid bad taste things in this world and many really bad disturbing things which this program is not. It is just a poor program in the show which has about 5% TV rating in Russia (#18 in TV rating list) and <0.0001% in the rest of the world. I am FS fan and I don't watch it. Then massive picking on this program in the Western media shows just how political and biased it is - nothing else. I wish this thread which is not better than Navka's performance were closed.

 

[CoyoteChris]

. How many Russian lives would have been saved if a real western front had been opened in 1943?

Oh oh....another person I am going to have to sit down with over a pitcher of beer and discuss the Soviets, the Finns, the Nazis, and Allied stragety....

 

[CoyoteChris]

https://kinggalleries.com/slaves-northern-fur-trade-american-tragedy/

The treatment of the Aleuts by the Russians was slavery; really, there is nothing else you could call it. The time frame was 1745 to 1864 (Russian discovery of Alaska to the sale of Alaska to the US.)



The same account is given in Koniag to King Crab by Yule M. Chaffin, 1967
https://www.amazon.com/Koniag-king-crab-settlement-industries/dp/B0006BRKVK

Thanks Doris and crew. Somehow this all was left out of my history unit on Seward's Icebox. And also left out was President Grant's treatment of the Lakota Sioux.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Dubreuil & Lauzon did a very tasteful dance to the soundtrack music of "Life is Beautiful" many seasons ago. Nothing offensive about it whatsoever.

I haven't seen Navka's program yet, so I'm not going to defend or attack it. However, context is everything!

Let me know what you think.....

 

[ancientpeas]

Oh oh....another person I am going to have to sit down with over a pitcher of beer and discuss the Soviets, the Finns, the Nazis, and Allied stragety....

If alcohol is involved I'll probably end up agreeing with anything you say. Hence why I rarely drink.
I now wish I could delete that post but others have quoted it so... I knew better than to post in this thread and now I'm all annoyed. Mostly with me.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Honestly I think it may surprise people to understand the lack of understanding many Americans have of our own past. (Generally speaking) I'd wager a good chunk of folks on a college campus would have no idea who JFK's Vice President was even though he later became a US President himself. :

Sadly, I wont take that wager. I think you are right. I still want to find a high school history teacher and ask them what they ARE teaching kids....

 

[skateluvr]

This is gone totally off topic and I agree it belongs in politics.

Please discuss the skating. We have so many fights over nothing here but really this has gone totally political. Maybe move part of it and posters should only discuss is it tasteful? Rehashing World War Two in the edge? There is no fair adherence to the rules here. Like subjective skating judging it seems all about who says what. I think the OP was brave to start the thread and it is totally not about the performance. Sigh.

 

[gmyers]

Brilliant program! Expertly captures the movie and the skating and acting are so good!

 

[CoyoteChris]

If alcohol is involved I'll probably end up agreeing with anything you say. Hence why I rarely drink.
I now wish I could delete that post but others have quoted it so... I knew better than to post in this thread and now I'm all annoyed. Mostly with me.

Relax! Hug a German Shep. Dog. Remember, if anyone attacks you personally for your academic opinions and beliefs, living well is the best revenge! That and drinking margarittas while watching skating.

 

[[email protected]]

Um... I really don't want to argue with you but I, a complete and total WASP complete with British parents, was very good friends with a Ukrainian family who left the Ukraine in the 60s. There is a sizeable Ukrainian community in Canada (I think we were the destination of choice and many headed out west) and I was lucky enough to be put in Ukrainian dance and cooking classes as a child. That the Russians imposed their language, political ideology and culture on Ukrainians is a pretty accepted fact. Maybe with the borders of Russia proper other cultures were accepted but I think if you ask Poles, Chezchs, Latvians etc. about what happened to their cultures in the period from 1945-90 you might hear a different side of the story.

FYI, you might want to not use the term small people. I know you don't mean it to be but it's a bit..problematic.

History is written by the victors.

I am checking out of this thread - it's too late now but will answer to some of your points.

"Small people" is an absolutely legitimate term in Russian without being considered codescending - I understand it may sound bad to you in English. http://fb.ru/article/268141/narodyi-severa-rossii-malyie-narodyi-severa-i-dalnego-vostoka When used it means that there are few folks actually fewer than 50 thousand.

I would not buy for granted what Ukrainian people who left Ukraine in the 60s say. Ukraine is not a monolite. There was an active resistance to the Soviet power way into the 50s. And during the war there was SS unit called Galitsia made of Western ukrainians. You may find info about it including the current argument between Ukraine and Poland that denounced their atrocities against Polish people during the war. A lot of Galitsia's members flew to Canada and were named "those who suffered from Communist propaganda" of course without any prosecution.

You corrected me with "small people". As a courtesy in return I would suggest that you study a bit more the history of the Soviet Union before saying things like "the Russians imposed their language, political ideology and culture". The Soviet regime initially was lead mostly by Jews, with some Poles (famous Dzerdjinskij), Latvians, etc. There were very few Russians. The mother line of Lenin was ukrainian Jews. And of course the main guy Stalin was 100% Georgian. Khruschev who followed him hat jewish and polish roots. Yes, Russian language was imposed as a mandatory state language - makes sense that there is one language in the country that all citizen can speak. But all native languages survived even among "small number people".

The Soviet Communism was bad news first of all for the Russians themselves. More Russians died from hunger and repressions during Stalin's time than any other people including the Ukrainians. And yes, imposing the Russian language and communism onto Easten Europe was not good for their people. But it's still about the shades of grey. If you compare the number of people killed in Nazi camps in 1933-45 with the number of people killed on political reasons during the communist times, you will see the difference of hundreds even thousands times. So, it's not the same. Good night.

 

[ancientpeas]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[gmyers]

I can't believe no one has seen the program or cares to comment on the acting or skating or moves they do. Like the asides and fear while they try to entertain the child are well done. They completely evoke an circus in their moves and you can imagine them having brought the child to a circus and trying to recreate that.

 

[lappo]

I can't believe no one has seen the program or cares to comment on the acting or skating or moves they do. Like the asides and fear while they try to entertain the child are well done. They completely evoke an circus in their moves and you can imagine them having brought the child to a circus and trying to recreate that.

A question...why she seems to shot at the man? I asked before but no one answered, maybe someone knows the concept behind.

 

[Ophelia]

This story has also made the front page of ONTD. The comments, are as always, a goldmine.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/104219586.html

 

[gmyers]

A question...why she seems to shot at the man? I asked before but no one answered, maybe someone knows the concept behind.

Because the whole environment is part of a game and they are making fun of what's going on.

 

[lappo]

Because the whole environment is part of a game and they are making fun of what's going on.

Well, the shouting at your partner/husband is the part I liked less and find less appropriate. They could have found another gesture to convey the mock part (don't know, maybe imitating the soldiers walk or gesture, as Benigni does so many times in the movie to make his son smile and which are quite known).