How much of an impact will the junior skaters make? | Golden Skate

How much of an impact will the junior skaters make?

CDMM1991

Medalist
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
So now that our season has finished, we're looking towards next season. We're going to see numerous skaters moving up from the junior ranks to the senior ranks next year, and with all the talk about Asada winning the Olympics if she could have gone, how much of an impact do you think these skaters will realistically make next year, in all disciplines?

If we want to play a numbers game, we could compare Junior Worlds to the Olympics and Worlds:

Kim's score of 177.54 would have placed her fourth at the Olympics, ahead of Suguri and Rochette, but a good few points behind Slutskaya, and fifth at the World Championships, if we eliminate the qualifying round scores. Of course, it's never perfectly black and white because of different sets of judges, and PCS perhaps being higher in general in senior competition, but this can give us an idea that Kim could very well be a force to be reckoned with next year.

Asada's score of 153.35 would have placed her tenth at the Olympics, behind Kostner, and ahead of Gedevanishvili. Of course this was arguably her worst performance of the season, so this might not be accurate in terms of what kind of effect she'll have on the senior ranks next year.

Junior men's champion Takahiko Kozuka's score of 180.05 would have placed him 19th at the Olympics, so I guess we can conclude that to a certain extent, the junior men that move up to the senior ranks next year won't be quite as much of a force as their female counterparts.

Vlassov and Meekins, the junior pairs champions' score of 138.05 would have placed them 14th at the Olympic Games, behind Hinzmann and Parchem, and ahead of the French team Pla and Bonheur, and 12th at the World Championships, again behind Hinzmann and Parchem, and ahead of the young Russian team Murkhortova and Trankov. So the junior pairs might not have a huge affect on the podiums next year, but they could very well shake up the top ten.

Virtue and Moir's score of 172.57 would have placed them 10th at the Olympics behind Domnina and Shabalin, but ahead of the Kerrs and their countrymen Wing and Lowe, who beat them at the national championships, and would have placed them 8th at the World Championships, again behind Domnina and Shabalin, and ahead of Faiella and Scali and again their countrymen Wing and Lowe. So the junior dancers could definitely have an effect on the top ten, and perhaps the top six next season.

The bottom line is that we can't compare competitions, because of different sets of judges, different circumstances, different context, different requirements, etc., etc. but we can get a rough idea of the landscape of the contenders next year in each of the disciplines. We can essentially expect the mens to stay the same. We can expect the ladies to really shake things up, and we can see some shuffling in pairs and dance in the future as well.

Thoughts?
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Well, Mao Asada already made a pretty big impact on the Senior Grand Prix last season, including winning the Final. :) Plus, Virtue and Moir had a promising senior international debut at 2006 Four Continents by winning the bronze medal. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Yu-Na Kim's transition to senior internationals goes!

Speaking of Vlassov/Meekins, this article on them was originally published on March 30 in the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/olympics/articles/2006/04/09/gold_rush/

Also, Drew Meekins wrote a very long and detailed journal entry about his 2006 U.S. Nationals and Junior Worlds experiences that was published on Vlassov/Meekins' official site on April 4th -- direct link is:
http://www.vlassovmeekins.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=10&blogId=1
In it, Meekins mentions an interesting technical feat of throw triple salchow to side-by-side triple toes that they did at one Nationals practice in St. Louis:
We also managed to hit a throw triple sal - triple toe combination in one of our practices. It was the first time we were able to show this element in a competition practice.
 

Perry

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Comparing scores between different senior competitions is unreliable, but comparing between junior and senior is pretty much impossible -- the seniors not only get an extra thirty seconds, but they also get an extra element (albeit a spin) that juniors don't. So really, you have to add 4-5 points on to any junior score to even come close to comparing them technically. So actually, Kim and Asada would have done much better than their point totals imply.
 

CDMM1991

Medalist
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Perry said:
Comparing scores between different senior competitions is unreliable, but comparing between junior and senior is pretty much impossible -- the seniors not only get an extra thirty seconds, but they also get an extra element (albeit a spin) that juniors don't. So really, you have to add 4-5 points on to any junior score to even come close to comparing them technically. So actually, Kim and Asada would have done much better than their point totals imply.

Those are exactly the factors that made me stress the fact that the mathematical facts can't be used for straight comparisons, but they can be used for conceptual comparisons. You can get an idea of what kind of force these skaters are going to be.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As an FYI, the Junior Ladies are allowed to do a double or triple preceeded by steps. The required jump in 2004-5 was a loop, in 2005-6 was a lutz, and in 2006-7 will be a flip. (The double substitution is not relevant for Kim's or Asada's skates.)
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
It will be interesting to see which of the skaters from 2006 Junior Worlds/JGP/Senior B's will debut on the Senior Grand Prix this fall. Likely/possible candidates include:

Ladies -- Yu-Na Kim (#10 in the current ISU World rankings), Aki Sawada (#16), Elene Gedevanishvili (#24), Katy Taylor (#25), Akiko Kitamura (#27), Mai Asada (#29), Nana Takeda (#30), Christine Zukowski (#31), Binshu Xu (#32), Meagan Duhamel (#33) [All but Duhamel are still ISU Junior age-eligible and it could be that only Kim, Gedevanishvili and Taylor will receive invites to the Sr. GP -- we shall see].

Men: Takahiko Kozuka (#21), Patrick Chan (#23), Ryo Shibata (#28), Stephen Carriere (#32), Sergei Voronov (#33), Geoffry Varner (#37), Adrian Schultheiss (#38) [all but Shibata and Varner are still ISU Junior age-eligible].

Pairs: Vlassov/Meekins (#11), Moyle/Seitz (#23), Krasilnokova/Bezmaternikh (#25), Namiotka/Coughlin (#27) [M/S, K/B and N/C are still ISU Junior age-eligible and 1 or more could be back on the JGP].

Dance: Virtue/Moir (#9), Mikhailova/Sergeev #14), Gorshkova/Tkachenko (#16), Platonova/Maximishin (#17), Davis/White (#21), Pratt/Gilles (#22), Cappellini/LaNotte (#27), Hann-McCurdy/Coreno (#29), Grundberg/Rand (#32), Huang/Zheng (#33) [Virtue/Moir and Grundberg/Rand are still ISU Junior age-eligible, and I expect G/R are likely to be back on the JGP].
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Sylvia said:
Speaking of Vlassov/Meekins, this article on them was originally published on March 30 in the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/olympics/articles/2006/04/09/gold_rush/

Also, Drew Meekins wrote a very long and detailed journal entry about his 2006 U.S. Nationals and Junior Worlds experiences that was published on Vlassov/Meekins' official site on April 4th -- direct link is:
http://www.vlassovmeekins.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=10&blogId=1
In it, Meekins mentions an interesting technical feat of throw triple salchow to side-by-side triple toes that they did at one Nationals practice in St. Louis:
I missed Jr. Pairs in St. Louis, but I intend to see them in Spokane. I was looking forward to seeing Bruebaker and Miller (or the other way around) but she grew taller than him. darn it.

As to Jr. singles, I don't know if Tommy Steenberg is still eligible. I know he was in Seniors in St. Louis and made quite an impression on me. With the Sr. Men dwindling down, I think Jr. Mens should be a very interesting event. We got Johnny and Evan only. I think Timmy, Michael, and Matt just about over.

for the Jr ladies, that Caroline Zhang is going to be big, one of these days.

Joe
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Technically speaking, Mariel Miller didn't grow taller than Rockne Brubaker ;), she just outgrew him (or you can say he just wasn't big enough for her).

Tommy Steenberg is still ISU Junior age-eligible (turned 17 last November) and I anticipate he will be back on the JGP this fall.

Caroline Zhang is remarkably talented with regard to musicality, spins and connecting with the audience (also because she's sooo small and cute!), but her jumps still need quite a bit of improvement (several triples were downgraded at 2006 U.S. Nationals where she finished 8th in Junior). Since she will be 13 years old in May, I expect she will stay junior another year.
 
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doug_log

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
I think Yuna Kim will dominate this coming season.

Only Kimmie and Mao have the tricks to compete with her. Yuna, however, has the best body line of all of three.

If the rumors are true and the judges crack down on flutzing, then Mao could be in big trouble. Kimmie could get slammed for her pre-rotation on her 3Ts in her triple-triple combos. Yuna, on the other hand, has a clean lutz and flip and she fully rotates her triple-triple/2a-3t.

Kimmie is a fighter though (and world champion). Mao has the 3A and great experiences on the senior level. Yuna has none of these things, but I really think next season will be hers. She has a style that the old 6.0 system would have loved. Expressive, beautiful positions...her short program last year was greatttttt.

Will the five older Japanese ladies compete? What about MIchelle and Sasha? Irina? Seems like Joannie and Carolina are the only other major players left in the field....C'mon Yuna!
 

darknessteve

Spectator
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
I also believe Mao & Yuna will dominate this coming season.

Yuna posted 64.85 TES (jr. length program with one less spin) at the Jr. worlds, and that was more of a conservative program for her with three 2A. Still, that TES would have been 2nd only to Kimmie's 69.47 at the worlds (you all know it's impossible to compare her PCS to Sr.) Yes, she also has the artistry and presenation skills beyond her age, but I don't think many people realize how talented of a jumper she is. I've seen her landing 7 triple jumps including 3F/3T and ina into 2A/3T/2T (06 korean nationals). Also, to me it's the quality of her jumps that stands out. Of course it all depends on how Yuna's transition to the senior level goes, but I have a feeling that she's gonna be just fine.

I'm also a huge fan of Mao. I think she has all the qualities to be one of the top skaters. However, as many people mentioned earlier, she has so many technical flaws on her jumps. No salchows, no toeloops, and she gets dinged for the flutzes. It's fairly ironic because she is considered to be one of the most talented jumpers in the world. But unless she gets those problems straightened out, she's stuck with those risky 3A. I hope she learned something after her defeat to Yuna
 
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Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
doug_log said:
I think Yuna Kim will dominate this coming season.

Only Kimmie and Mao have the tricks to compete with her. Yuna, however, has the best body line of all of three.

I think overall, Mao and Kimmie will have the staying power for the next Olympic cycle. Despite each having technical issues that are still in development, I think these two want it the most. Having watched Yuna train, I am not sure she has the internal drive to see it through. Kimmie and Mao are still "young" enough in their hearts (not jaded so much or on the road to burn-out) that they will have long term success.

US juniors or novices that might feed into the mix over the next four yrs???
Caroline Zhang does indeed have incredible spin and spiral positions on the ice, but as Sylvia pointed out above, has much work to do in the jump department, so not sure that she will factor into Vancouver. Other juniors....very impressed by Juliana Canarozzo's (sp?) FS at US Nats....so much energy. Also Melissa Bulinhagui (sp?)....excellent energy with more jumps consistent. Katrina Hacker has absolutely beautiful line on the ice but still needs development, Molly Oberstar has just as much flexiblity as Zhang but must be 12 inches taller! Megan Hyatt now has some international experience (JGP as well as Jr Worlds) and perhaps that will help her build confidence in her already good skating skills. Ashley Wagner....excellent jumper. Rachael Flatt, also quite small and young, still needs development, but has all her jumps at this point. So, not sure out of this crowd if anyone in particular will come into play by 2010. Its only four years down the road, but the age range at this point.....at the lower end, 12/13 ...Zhang and Flatt, to the upper end....pretty much all the other US junior ladies at natls....15 and up....probably going to put my money on the younger skaters.

Novices........hard to say, but one of the skaters who was not at nationals, I would look for Sherry Barnes to come into play at least at the US senior level by 2010 nationals.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for the informative post, Nigel. :clap:

Darknessteve, welcome to the forum! Post often, post long!

Mathman :)
 
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