Importance of the program in IJS?

[AndreaRu]

I think I'm about to drive my daughter's coach over the edge talking all this out, so here I am to hash it out some more. We decided not to hire a choreographer this season since we only have a connection to one and we had a bit of an issue last season. We were all pretty happy with the program her coach created, but after completing the first two IJS competitions of the season, I'm noticing that many of her competitors' programs are just at a different level.

I went through the protocols from last competition and out of 10 skaters in her group, only four skaters had 3 elements in the last half of the program. My daughter was one. Her 2F is in the last second of the program. She lands her 2Lz pretty well in practice, but in the program it's at the 1:30 mark and just 8 seconds after her combo spin. It's a little much for her and something I think more thoughtful choreography and layout could really help fix.

I have an e-mail out to a choreographer I found on Google (yes, this is the level of desperation I'm experiencing), but I don't know if we'll be able to connect with him (he's no longer in the area full time) and since there's no Amazon for choreographers, I'm concerned that we just won't be able to find someone. But maybe I shouldn't be stressing... maybe the program isn't really that important in the grand scheme. I just want to give her equal footing.

So... How much weight is placed on linking steps, transitions, etc? Especially at this level where there are only 3 components judged (performance, skating skills, interpretation). Does having fewer components to judge make it harder to find a category in which you impress a judge? Or easier? Can you get great component scores with a subpar program? I mean, I'm sure you can... but just how much better do you need to be to compensate for a program that lacks all the things component scores are built upon? How much does the basic layout of the program impact the quality of the program?

 

[gkelly]

I went through the protocols from last competition and out of 10 skaters in her group, only four skaters had 3 elements in the last half of the program. My daughter was one. Her 2F is in the last second of the program. She lands her 2Lz pretty well in practice, but in the program it's at the 1:30 mark and just 8 seconds after her combo spin. It's a little much for her and something I think more thoughtful choreography and layout could really help fix.

The coach who specializes in technique and works with your daughter every week should be able to adjust the layout to help her land the 2Lz better than a most choreographers who might be brought in for artistic purposes. But it depends on the individuals involved. For that problem, I'd certainly start with pointing out to the coach that the placement of the lutz in the program seems to be affecting consistency and does s/he have any ideas how to make it easier for your skater to land it in context?

So... How much weight is placed on linking steps, transitions, etc? Especially at this level where there are only 3 components judged (performance, skating skills, interpretation). Does having fewer components to judge make it harder to find a category in which you impress a judge? Or easier? Can you get great component scores with a subpar program?

At this level the most important program component is Skating Skills. And that is what will impress the judges most. So her best bet is to work with a technical coach on power, edge control, etc. You do want to make sure that the program includes enough skating (crossovers, and turns) in her less-preferred direction to meet the "multidirectional skating" part of Skating Skills, but not to the point that it will slow her down or negatively affect the steadiness. A technical coach who knows your skater well should be able to figure out which bad-direction turns she's best able to incorporate.

Performance and Interpretation are skills that she can work on off ice and then try to bring into her on-ice performance. Does she take dance lessons (ballet, modern, jazz, tap, hiphop, ballroom, ethnic dance, etc. -- whatever might be most relevant to the music she's using, or ballet or modern for general body awareness/core strength/alignment/flexibility)? Maybe a dance teacher would be able to come to the rink once or twice to give some pointers on performing her program and expressing her program music on ice.

If she doesn't have a program yet for the coming season and needs a brand new one, then it might be worthwhile to find a skating choreographer, or a coach who is especially good at choreography, to put one together for her. But if she already has a program, then the coach plus off-ice dance instruction should be able to improve her skills in the areas relevant to her current competition level.

 

[vlaurend]

I agree with gkelly. Once the problem areas are identified, her coach should be able to tweak her program to fix those issues. Here are some examples:
Lutz - Moving it to somewhere in the program she can land it more cleanly and consistently will not only get her higher marks on the lutz, but also in Performance.
Skating Skills - In addition to skating in both directions, she needs to demonstrate good speed and power as well as showing that she can do more than crossovers between elements. When there is no "Transitions" mark, you can expect the strength of those transitions to show up in her Skating Skills mark.

 

[AndreaRu]

Her coach isn't really concerned about the placement. Her philosophy is that something has to go there, why not the 2Lz? Instead of moving it, they just took it out -- the score difference there is what kept her out of the final round at her last competition. I know she is just not loving the idea of rearranging the whole program at this point.

My biggest issue is that I really don't know how to find and hook up with a choreographer when our coach and club don't have the size and connections to provide the opportunity. We pretty much take every opportunity that any other club will offer someone who isn't a member, but we've never been given the opportunity to participate in choreography (likely because when they fly people in, they are super overbooked with their own skaters -- at least that is what has happened in the past with nearby clubs).

I'm sure a lot of the girls who get high marks *are* doing dance. It shows. And the programs really showcase it, too. Judging from the rinks we've visited just traveling around the area, there are a lot of clubs that offer these services and have the numbers to support them. They have classes that are geared toward helping skaters, which would be really awesome, but unfortunately not going to happen here. They also offer off-ice classes, which we have to arrange ourselves at great cost since we don't have numbers to make much of a group of it.

I arranged a dance class through a new dance studio that offered up their services to us, but my daughter was the only one who signed up so it was scrapped after 2 classes. She did gymnastics for a while and that was great for flexibility and conditioning, but eventually there weren't enough hours in her week to do both at the level required by the gym. It's really just a matter of trying to improve what we can change and getting her more dance skills is probably not something we can accomplish at the moment. I do hope, though, that a really great choreographer could help us play to her strengths and work out something that would be less "thrown together" and more on par with her competitors.

If we can find a choreographer who is willing to work with us, then we will definitely go that route for next season. I don't know who else to contact outside of the one person I managed to find (who hasn't responded since my last email where I told him my daughter's level so I'm wondering if maybe he only works with higher level skaters). I just feel like we need to go back to the drawing board a little on this one. Some of these girls have so much footwork in their programs that I have a hard time identifying when the actual footwork sequence has started! I would just like to have her "base value" for components be as high as possible (yes, I know there's no base value there, but there kind of is, too).

Oh. I will say that I do enjoy the feedback of IJS, but it's still just as frustrating because judges still disagree and you still don't really know why. It's frustrating and great at the same time. Definition of the sport, I guess.

 

[concorde]

I will probably offend alots of posters here with my comment but ...

Most coaches really do not know the current IJS rules let alone the updated rules come June 1. Yes - they know that is correctly skated and can tell what is easier / harder but putting all that together in something that makes sense is entirely different.

First year my daughter skated IJS, the main coach and MIF coach put together a program. First competition, one spin got zero points. It was not that she did not do it, it was the format. Other issues along the way and we opted to change coaches three quarters of the way thorough the season. At Regionals, the new coach looked at me and said "your daughter's programs is the worst set up program that I have ever seen." Once it was pointed out to me, I could see what the issues were.

And that is why we now always use a choreographer.

 

[AndreaRu]

I will probably offend alots of posters here with my comment but ...

Most coaches really do not know the current IJS rules let alone the updated rules come June 1. Yes - they know that is correctly skated and can tell what is easier / harder but putting all that together in something that makes sense is entirely different.

First year my daughter skated IJS, the main coach and MIF coach put together a program. First competition, one spin got zero points. It was not that she did not do it, it was the format. Other issues along the way and we opted to change coaches three quarters of the way thorough the season. At Regionals, the new coach looked at me and said "your daughter's programs is the worst set up program that I have ever seen." Once it was pointed out to me, I could see what the issues were.

And that is why we now always use a choreographer.

Thank you for saying this. It seems like the coach should always know best, but my daughter's coach is very open about the fact that she doesn't enjoy laying out a program. She does great for her little ones, but IJS is completely new to her. She didn't skate within the system and my daughter is only the 3rd skater in the history of our club to do an IJS program (one of those only lasted one competition before she quit). She is currently the only skater in the club competing IJS (one other will start in June). We aren't exactly working from a wealth of knowledge and experience.

If the answer is that the program is really important (and I believe it is, since my daughter's placements this year are not on the same trend they've been on, even against the same competitors), then I have no idea how to fix the problem. There is definitely something IJS isn't liking about her this season. I mean, I'm not even disputing it -- I can see the difference in her program. She does at least twice as many crossovers as the girl who normally takes first. Sometimes she's just skating in a straight line to get from point A to point B. There are very few transitions and changes of direction. I did think she was interpreting the music, but even those marks are low because, after watching the other programs, I can tell there aren't enough flourishes and arm movements that go along with the music.

We need someone with IJS and choreography experience to solve the puzzle for us. My daughter's coach has some connections to very high level coaches, but they don't do their own choreography, either. They found time to do some lessons with my daughter last summer, but she's not part of their circle enough to be included in the advantages they offer their own students.

It doesn't look like the choreographer I sought out is going to respond to me (it's been 5 days), but maybe he's just busy and he'll reach out with lots of ideas and solve my problem! Aside from that, I have no idea where to go. I contacted him because he had a lot of examples of his work and credentials posted like he was open to working with people who might find him. The rest of the names I found are just shots in the dark but I guess I'll just start randomly contacting people if he doesn't get back to me soon.

 

[concorde]

Choreography is alot more than putting together a pretty program that show off certain elements. As you are just starting to learn, it is also all those transitions into and put of the elements. It is also getting all the "things" necessary to make up a step sequence. It is more a strategy than anything else.

Someone told me early on that the first year of IJS is a learning year. Unfortunately I learned alot that year and most were at the cost of my daughter's success that year. Oh the things I would have done differently!

 

[AndreaRu]

Yes, strategy. That's a good way to describe it. Everything has to be analyzed and scrutinized because that's what the judges and tech panel are doing. We are really outmatched this season and unfortunately, because of the rule change, my daughter won't get a juvenile season. This learning year is basically her only year where she might have done well. She'll probably end up in PreJuv again next season because there is no way she'll be ready to move to Intermediate (and even if she ever does, the resources and ice time we have here pretty much guarantee she won't be able to compete there). I just wanted this season to be good for her.

 

[RoaringMice]

Must you stay with this club? Can you join another club that's used to having skaters at your daughter's level/offers more services? Even if you stay a home member at this club, you can join the other, normally, and thus use their services.

 

[AndreaRu]

Must you stay with this club? Can you join another club that's used to having skaters at your daughter's level/offers more services? Even if you stay a home member at this club, you can join the other, normally, and thus use their services.

There really aren't any other clubs within driving distance that have any more resources than we do. She'd basically have to quit going to regular school to travel to another rink with more resources (it would be 2 hours one way without traffic). Otherwise, the rest of the rinks within an hour of us are pretty much in the same boat. We aren't interested in leaving her coach or her home rink at all, though. Just need a couple more resources we can't easily find here.

 

[concorde]

Unfortunately alot of parents find themselves in a similar spot the first IJS year.

Do you think your coach will be willing to learn IS? I know of one or two that were will to learn and their students have done very well.

Were you even planning on letting your daughter do Regionals this year? I was confused since you say this is her last year for Juv and next year she would doing Pre-Juv. To me that sounds like you will be skipping Regionals since unlike other competition, you have to skate at the level you will be competing. As an fyi - lots of girls run into a similar problem and they sit a Intermediate. Take a look at the Intermediate scores at your daughter's next competition - you might be really surprised in the range you will be seeing.

 

[AndreaRu]

Unfortunately alot of parents find themselves in a similar spot the first IJS year.

Do you think your coach will be willing to learn IS? I know of one or two that were will to learn and their students have done very well.

Were you even planning on letting your daughter do Regionals this year? I was confused since you say this is her last year for Juv and next year she would doing Pre-Juv. To me that sounds like you will be skipping Regionals since unlike other competition, you have to skate at the level you will be competing. As an fyi - lots of girls run into a similar problem and they sit a Intermediate. Take a look at the Intermediate scores at your daughter's next competition - you might be really surprised in the range you will be seeing.

She's PreJuv this year. We probably won't do regionals. If the season really turns around in the next 2 competitions and something miraculous happens, we could probably find another coach to put her on the ice, but it would just be the non-qual event. If she wants to do Juv at regionals, she'd need to test and move up by the end of summer. That would be bad based on her current scores at PreJuv.

Years ago, we thought she was on track to be at Juv next season, then they changed the rules and she lost a lot of her motivation, knowing she wouldn't have a chance to go to regionals and do well. Even getting a double axel will be a huge struggle with as little ice time as we have, triples are pretty much out of the question -- that puts her solidly in the bottom half of any Intermediate QR group.

Her coach is willing and she's learning, but she doesn't eat, sleep, and breathe skating like the full time coaches do.

 

[gkelly]

Years ago, we thought she was on track to be at Juv next season, then they changed the rules and she lost a lot of her motivation, knowing she wouldn't have a chance to go to regionals and do well. Even getting a double axel will be a huge struggle with as little ice time as we have, triples are pretty much out of the question -- that puts her solidly in the bottom half of any Intermediate QR group.

I don't know what region you're in, but in most regions it is definitely possible to place in the top half of an Intermediate qualifying round without a double axel or any triples.

Placing in the top 4 and advancing to the final round would be much less likely.

Clean rotated double jumps, good spins, and good skating and performance quality help a lot.

Anything you can do to improve those skills would be great -- including working with a professional who is knowledgeable about IJS, whether you call that person "choreographer" or "coach."

If I had to identify what's probably most important for placing in the upper middle of the Intermediate field, I'd say Skating Skills (e.g., having at least solid Novice MIF), and solid double jumps. The emphasis on Skating Skills seems to be more explicit since USFS removed some of the program components for Juvenile and Intermediate levels and made Skating Skills worth a higher percentage than the other remaining components.

If the jumps are often underrotated/downgraded and the skating skills are barely at the Intermediate MIF level, Pre-Juvenile or Open Juvenile might be more appropriate, unless just getting to enter qualifying Regionals, or getting to skate a short program, at all is more of an incentive than placing well.

I think needing to train a second program is another reason why teens who don't get much ice time might hesitate to move up to Intermediate.

 

[AndreaRu]

I agree with everything you said. I know it's possible to place well in a QR at regionals without a double axel -- I was just basing her probable placement on where *she* would be as a skater if she had to move up next season. There's no way she would place well unless she could pull out the big guns.

We do barely have time to get one program together, so having 2 would be difficult. Some of the girls who are competing against my daughter in PreJuv this year are also doing Juvenile short programs, so they are on the ball and looking forward.

If I could get her one really solid program we would be on much better footing. We know she does have to improve her technical marks, too. She's definitely capable of fully rotating her jumps (they've all been called clean over the course of the 2 programs, just not all at the same time). She just needs to remember it's important and do it on every jump, every program. I'm more concerned about the program components because that's so much more subjective and her scores vary a lot from judge to judge.

With the cost involved in going to regionals, it probably isn't something we will do this year unless there is even a slight chance my daughter won't be slaughtered (meaning not placing pretty much last in a QR). We went to the non-qual when it was closer to us and my daughter placed 2nd in qualifying and 5th overall. Until now she's been happy with that being her regionals experience. Going in and placing 55th of 60 would be really hard. If it were closer to home and if her coach could go and had lots of other students going, I'd probably consider things a different way. At that point it would be a fun team thing with low pressure. I can't even look out that far right now, though.