In a class of his own: Orser owned 2013-14 season

[Meoima]

Coaching's tasks certainly includes make sure their skater can deliver mentally at the biggest highest pressured event, why is it so hard to understand? Ice Network have their own criteria, you have yours, I have mine and gave my reasons why.

Well, it's still the skaters who have to go to the rink on their own, not the coach. We can't put all the blame on the coach. I am not a fan of Orser. But I don't think he is just a lucky coach. I mean, he can be lucky IF he only had one or two titles this year, but he has all the big 5. I couldn't say all of those achievements were out of sheer luck. His timing and calculation worked. Give him some credit.

I am sure I am not the only one who noted the crazy PCS inflation that saw them grew from last seasons...

I was one of those people who pointed out the crazy PCS inflation, but why does it have anything to do with... Brian Orser and Ice Network's criteria??? I don't see it at all. Orser is not the one who did the politiking for his students. Again, he is just a coach, his job is coaching. And his students' job is skating. If you want to say anything about the PCS inflation, then say it in the judging controversy thread.

for performances that imo lacks musicality, interpretation, projection, maturity compare to his previous Romeo & Juliet program where everything has been streamlined now to focus entirely on jumps and COP number crunching.

I am no fans of the dying Juliet program, if you ever noticed my posts before, you know that I dislike David Wilson's choreography for all the skaters. I think his choreography has been lacking artistry, but to say that the program has no maturity is purely subjective. Hanyu of 2 years ago would never finish a program with 2 different quads and 8 triples, for sure. He has matured a lot, in term of stamina AND basic skating skills. Had he stay with Nanami Abe, I doubt that his skating skills would go up to the current level. Orser team, even though hasn't showed us a great long program for Hanyu and Javi, still deserves lots of credit for these skaters' improvement.

It seems ISU owes JSF a gold medal for many years of financial contribution, and with Dai being injury prone these last 18 months, Mao less of a guarantee since they want to push for a Russia OGM, Hanyu get promoted as Japan's No.1 great hope that benefit from ridiculous PCS boost even when he went a bit iffy on the day starting from the Japanese Nationals 2013 FS against a perfect Daisuke who skated the lights out out vs a splat fest from Hanyu.

I am a Dai's fan, but in no way I would say that Dai would be the Japan National Champion 2013. JFS DID save Dai a slot for Sochi, regardless that he came 5th in the national. And to say that Mao was less of a guarantee is not true. Mao is the most beloved skater in Japan, I am sure the majority of Japan fans would love to see her win at Sochi. But that didn't happen.

90s in PCS for the men used to require something extraordinary and amazing but you'd never guess from watching the 90s from the Yuzuru, Machida and Javier this season. PCS these days might as well be renamed as Political Compensation Special.

If PChan was scored almost 96 PCS at his peak, then I am not surprised that they gave Hanyu/Javi/Machida 90-91 PCS at their peak. They have improved a lot and while their skating skills are still not at PChan's level, you have to admit they deserve higher PCS than last season. Again, I do think that PCS has gone crazy, but that doesn't dismiss the level of their improvement and basic skills over the years.

Hanyu's LP PCS last world championship 2013 was 80, this year at Olympics was 90, and 92 by worlds '14 despite how he skated.

Well, he DID skate MUCH better than last year, with better stamina and better concentration, better spins and jumps. I also think 90s PCS was too high BUT everyone else was the same. Don't forget that Dai got higher PCS at Sochi than Hanyu.

Exactly same SP last year was 40+, this year 46+. Machida also received 90s at worlds for that Fire bird which is all sort of cliche done lukewarm at best, which previous seasons should receive no higher than 80, but Worlds is in Japan and the fact Machida skated no lesser than Hanyu that day. I bet PCS will be awarded more accurately and fairly by an NON ISU/federation affiliated panel and arguably should be if this is true fair sport where agenda and politics should not matter.

Hanyu's SP has built an excellent momentum from the last season, and he DID skate his SP much better, with better speed and composure. I am tired of the guitar drone but it's true that the SP deserve highest score in Sochi. Let's not forget skater often get highest scores in Olympic season. It's a problem but PCS boost for Olympic season applies for everyone, even the ladies. Remember Kosters' LP at worlds?

Again, I don't see the connection between PCS inflation to Orser's achievements. His skaters did archive a lot this season. Regardless of the long program event at Sochi where everyone skated badly, I think overall they were mentally prepared very well.

 

[HanDomi]

Meoima I agree with most of you wrote. Just adding to this, you can't compare Hanyu 2012-2013 vs Hanyu 2013-2014 LP. For me his current LP was big step forward in everything almost really. This program is really heavily packed comparing to Notre Dame and this is still quite amazing that with his asthma he can do all those things.

 

[pec0]

OMG now I remember. Sorry it's my fault.
I totally forgot that it's the same person who said that FS should be eliminated from the Olympic because Mao didn't won.

You are trolling. I have NEVER said anything like that.

I cannot help but say one thing. Most of you have been bashing Asada like crazy until soti.
Asada is selfish and arrogant because she would not give up 3A. Any positive comments for Asada ware quickly denied by the same person, oh not only Asada! there were lots of other skaters as good as Asada!, those are now purring on bitterweet memory of half retired loser dog Asada. I feel like vomit... why the hell should you keep doing such things? She is out now. If you want to praise the Queen you can start Absolute Queen thread as many as you want.

 

[Alba]

You can't compare skaters work with their previous year really. It's like saying they have not worked at all for a whole year and that's not fair. A lot can be improved even in less time, let alone in 1 year.

 

[Alba]

You are trolling. I have NEVER said anything like that.

Yes you did. Check out the topic again because I'm not bothering to link the post here for you.

I cannot help but say one thing. Most of you have been bashing Asada like crazy until soti.
Asada is selfish and arrogant because she would not give up 3A. Any positive comments for Asada ware quickly denied by the same person, oh not only Asada! there were lots of other skaters as good as Asada!, those are now purring on bitterweet memory of half retired loser dog Asada. I feel like vomit... why the hell should you keep doing such things? She is out now. If you want to praise the Queen you can start Absolute Queen thread as many as you want.

I'm Asada's and Yulia fan, so you're gone mad.
Yuna is not even my favorite skater but I don't have to love her to actually see that she is one of the best, if not the best, figure skater of all times.

 

[Meoima]

Yes you did.

I told ya, Sky_fly is lovely if you compare her to pec0.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As much as I appreciate Hanyu's incredible talent, I am sure I am not the only one who noted the crazy PCS inflation that saw them grew from last seasons for performances that imo lacks musicality, interpretation, projection, maturity compare to his previous Romeo & Juliet program where everything has been streamlined now to focus entirely on jumps and COP number crunching.

90s in PCS for the men used to require something extraordinary and amazing but you'd never guess from watching the 90s from the Yuzuru, Machida and Javier this season. PCS these days might as well be renamed as Political Compensation Special. Hanyu's LP PCS last world championship 2013 was 80, this year at Olympics was 90, and 92 by worlds '14 despite how he skated. Exactly same SP last year was 40+, this year 46+. Machida also received 90s at worlds for that Fire bird which is all sort of cliche done lukewarm at best, which previous seasons should receive no higher than 80, but Worlds is in Japan and the fact Machida skated no lesser than Hanyu that day. I bet PCS will be awarded more accurately and fairly by an NON ISU/federation affiliated panel and arguably should be if this is true fair sport where agenda and politics should not matter.

I agree that the PCS this year were a bit ridiculous. Hanyu's made excellent improvements, as has Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova, but it's ridiculous that their PCS jumps over 10 points in the course of a few months. I don't care how improved their performances are during the season, the level of home-cooked PCS was outrageous. And so obviously calculated. Give home ice inflation at the GPF for Hanyu or Cup of Russia for Lipnitskaia and all of a sudden, their PCS in the FS won't ever drop below 88 or 68 for the rest of the season, even though the programs are essentially the same in terms of choreography, and a skater's SS doesn't improve to that degree in one season.

I totally think Hanyu and Lip deserved to win the events they won this season (except Cup of Russia for Lip), but the pimping of their PCS (among others) is ridiculous. Hanyu will likely score 90+ every time (even though I think skaters like Machida and Fernandez are better than him, in terms of overall skating), which coupled with his higher technical advantage over the field, makes him the new Chan -- I mean, he fell in every competition last season (save for Finlandia). Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova will likely never score PCS lower than 68/70, no matter how poorly they skate now -- once they've passed that threshold, they will stay there.

The worst Political Compensation Special (other than Sotnikova in Sochi) was Kostner getting a personal best PCS for her Worlds FS. I mean, wth?! People can hate on Chan all they want, but he never received personal bests for such error-filled programs as Kostner's Worlds LP or Lipnitskaia's Cup of Russia LP.

I think what we will see happening is federations pulling this crap where they inflate their own skaters by 10 points, and then future judges bring it down only 5 points, leaving a net increase of 5 points PCS, even if the skater doesn't improve to that degree.

 

[Krunchii]

I agree with Yuzuru's PCS being too high for him, his skating skills aren't even close to PChan's (less than half a point separating them in SS for PCS at the Olympics is ridiculous) and his posture needs work so I'm glad you addressed that. I think he'll grow into his scores though, his reaction in the Kiss&Cry in GP Final showed that he didn't think he deserved his scores either. He's talked about taking ballet to fix his posture and he's continuing to train, he has a great attitude and knows he's not a complete skater yet. But a potential problem is that his PCS might continue to rise as he improves.

Even with the PCS boost, Yuzuru is still the winner though, Javi and Nam are also deserving of their titles so Orser is still very deserving.

 

[Alba]

I told ya, Sky_fly is lovely if you compare her to pec0.

You are right, as usual my friend.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree with Yuzuru's PCS being too high for him, his skating skills aren't even close to PChan's (less than half a point separating them in SS for PCS at the Olympics is ridiculous) and his posture needs work so I'm glad you addressed that. I think he'll grow into his scores though, his reaction in the Kiss&Cry in GP Final showed that he didn't think he deserved his scores either. He's talked about taking ballet to fix his posture and he's continuing to train, he has a great attitude and knows he's not a complete skater yet.

Even with the PCS boost, Yuzuru is still the winner though, Javi and Nam are also deserving of their titles so Orser is still very deserving.

Of course. Hanyu has the right attitude about continually wanting to improve. I was okay with his overscored PCS last season, because he still did deserve to win those competitions. However, I wish it were with the right scoring. He does indeed need to fix his posture, and refine his arms more (they get a bit sloppy/swingy). He certainly has the potential to be a better skater, and I commend him for trying to improve. I'm also glad there are skaters like Machida and Fernandez keeping him on his toes.

I don't think Orser is responsible for Hanyu's PCS boost in the way I'm sure other coaches have lobbied for PCS boosts for their skaters (*cough*Frank Carroll*cough*). Hanyu's still delivered the goods. As crappy as his Olympic FS was with two falls, he still managed two triple axels and a quad, and was the best of the worst. Outside of that though, Orser has created tremendous improvement in Hanyu, and certainly tremendous improvement in Fernandez. But I think Nam's World Juniors win put him over the edge...

I mean, he's the coach of the men's World Champion, GPF champion, Olympic Champion, Japanese champion, European Champion, World bronze medalist, and World Junior champion. Most coaches don't achieve that in their entire careers, let alone one season.

 

[cooper]

I see, os168 is Russia/Japan anti. The latest shenanigan is nothing more than pathetic trolling.

w/ 187 posts under your name.. the pot calling the kettle black..

 

[Meoima]

I totally think Hanyu and Lip deserved to win the events they won this season (except Cup of Russia for Lip), but the pimping of their PCS (among others) is ridiculous.

We shouldn't take PCS too seriously, the placements were that matter. Overall I think they all deserve their wins, who will remember the PCS eventually? I have stated this many times: Judging is coming back to the ordinal system. Or I would say it always has been ordinal.

I think what we will see happening is federations pulling this crap where they inflate their own skaters by 10 points, and then future judges bring it down only 5 points, leaving a net increase of 5 points PCS, even if the skater doesn't improve to that degree.

If you asked Hanyu or Yuna, are they willing to give up their world records for more golds, undoubtedly they would say yes. Scores only matter to the placements, who cares if you won by 0.30 point or by 30 points?

I agree that the PCS this year were a bit ridiculous. Hanyu's made excellent improvements, as has Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova, but it's ridiculous that their PCS jumps over 10 points in the course of a few months.

AGAIN: Still don't understand the connection between PCS inflation and Orser's achievements here.

Edited:

I mean, he's the coach of the men's World Champion, GPF champion, Olympic Champion, Japanese champion, European Champion, World bronze medalist, and World Junior champion. Most coaches don't achieve that in their entire careers, let alone one season.

Agree! Orser totally deserves this title.

 

[Alba]

f you asked Hanyu or Yuna, are they willing to give up their world records for more golds, undoubtedly they would say yes. Scores only matter to the placements, who care if you won by 0.30 point or by 30 points?

That's what I think too. As I said, I laugh when I hear about world records etc.
I don't care at all and I think they are ridiculous. There are no "deserving" marks for some things in PCS section. If someone belives that he/she is really delusional.

The important thing is that PCS scores do not change the placement completely. If someone had a poor or not a good tech, and overall performance, should never win thanks to PCS only.

 

[makaihime]

Why is this suddenly turning into a discussion about PCS?

I think everyone can agree that Hanyu right now shouldn't be receiving 90-92 range PCS but neither should the top 3. At worlds, Machida got 90 and Fernandez got the same 91 PCS as Hanyu and those two weren't even foot perfect. The judges went crazy with Chan and now they don't know how to stop. There's no way that those scores will be dropping more than 5 point next season (barring a complete meltdown) and if Hanyu and Fernandez gets more consistent, they will most likely hit the 95 range--if not by next season, then the season after.

And although I'm joining in on this discussion, PCS has nothing to do with Orser's abilities as a coach.

 

[annca]

That's what I think too. As I said, I laugh when I hear about world records etc.
I don't care at all and I think they are ridiculous. There are no "deserving" marks for some things in PCS section. If someone belives that he/she is really delusional.

The important thing is that PCS scores do not change the placement completely. If someone had a poor or not a good tech, and overall performance, should never win thanks to PCS only.

:agree:

 

[Antilopa]

the pot calling the kettle black..

it's just about you after all your IhateRussia.
PS am I Russia or Japan or USA/Canada/France/Korea/Italia etc anti?

 

[OS]

I am a Dai's fan, but in no way I would say that Dai would be the Japan National Champion 2013. JFS DID save Dai a slot for Sochi, regardless that he came 5th in the national. And to say that Mao was less of a guarantee is not true. Mao is the most beloved skater in Japan, I am sure the majority of Japan fans would love to see her win at Sochi. But that didn't happen.

Oops i mean 2012 of course, I am refering to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtoUoiorSQ8

I am not a fan of this program but 2nd half Dai was freaking amazing.

vs this where Hanyu received 89.70 PCS back in 2012.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s

My expression: Although Dai rightly won the FS with higher PCS, but the overmarking of Hanyu's PCS overall made difference where he beat Dai by 5 points, consider it was only his 2nd year senior, it clearly shows JSF's agenda for him.

 

[pec0]

Yes you did. Check out the topic again because I'm not bothering to link the post here for you.



I'm Asada's and Yulia fan, so you're gone mad.
Yuna is not even my favorite skater but I don't have to love her to actually see that she is one of the best, if not the best, figure skater of all times.

I started ' Should figure skating removed from Olympic' thread because, under current judging system, scores of figure skating competion are not like other sports, like swimming or track race.
You are trolling by distorting my points.

 

[Alba]

I started ' Should figure skating removed from Olympic' thread because, under current judging system, scores of figure skating competion are not like other sports, like swimming or track race.
You are trolling by distorting my points.

You started like that and continued like this: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ating-be-removed-from-the-Olympic-games/page4

starting with

I meant the appearance of Kim Yu Na, the Absolute Greatest Queen of figure skating is the only difference between Olympic and the other international figure skate competitions.
For sports, what matters should be the performance record and not the name of the event. However, the Olympic record of figure skate is often too offensive and insulting.

and this:

I think a Korean judge made deduction for every jump of Asada. Therefore I never forgive Koreans.

Have a good read.

Now, I'm really leaving you to it because i do not intend to transform this topic into another Yuna vs mao trash discussion.
I've already done the damage by replying to your in first place, because I thought you were serious.
Cheers.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

People..people...

Talk about this instead :yes:

http://youtu.be/wmoYP1oKQUU