Interview with Rafael Arutyunyan

[daphenaxa]

What a sexist hypocrisy. Raf contadicts himself here:
at 20:05 he talks about how hard is to win Olympics for 10 y.o. girl now - since for Beijing she can't compete due to high enough age limit and for next one she is too old already
at 48:46 she talks about raising the age for senior skating due to health concerns of course (despite coaching Nathan jumping quads when he was kid too) - which will make much harder to win any given Olympics for any given junior girl

As an experienced coach he should know perfectly well that girls have much shorter competitive career age window - they peaks earlier and retires earlier as well. So, increasing age will diminish chances of participating in at least one OG at competitive age and especially in two OG - from pretty low to almost zero. The same can be said about learning quads - if you don't learn them early - you may very well don't learn them at all. So raising age can't prevent learning quads - Raf is concerned not about health here - he just don't want his pupils to compete against russian girls )

Actually if you listen carefully to what he says, he doesn't advocate for the young girls not to learn quads/3A at all. He even says "you can do it once" at one point because we all know that it's the skaters who have tried those jumps when young that can regain/keep them when older.
what he advocates against is the pounding of drilling those jumps every day in practice to include them in a program at age 13 or 14. Was Nathan competitively jumping quads when he was 13? no

As for the small age window for ladies, and peaking when young, well that's actually created by the fact the older ladies have no chance in the jump department against teenagers with no mature bodies. It's not that the older ladies can't jump at all, it's that they are competing with girls that do not belong to the same categories at all and the things that they gained like better presentation, maturity, artistry etc. isn't taken into account as much as the jumps.
Raising the age doesn't necessarily prevents learning the quad but it definitely would put more pressure on preserving the bodies of the young athletes and thinking long term so they can actually last enough to reach seniors instead of winning everything for 1 year at 15 and then being put aside forever.

 

[sheetz]

Regarding Nathan, I don't even think he was with Raf at the time he learned 4F and 4Lz. From Max Aaron's GS interview it sounds like Nathan first landed them in Colorado Springs while goofing around in practice with Max. Not sure about the 4F but I think Max said Nathan landed 4Lz on his first attempt?
https://youtu.be/MlVZ_9RUeBs?t=3m56s

 

[alexaa]

Regarding Nathan, he didn't start learning quad at very young age. I copied what I posted on the age thread about Nathan's quad:

Here is Nathan's count about timeline of his landing his jumps from an interview right after 2016 NHK cup. Thanks to the sheetz's translation.

"I first landed the 4T in practice when I was 15 and also successful landed it at Nationals. Two weeks after landing the 4T I Ianded the 4S, and then the 4F when I was 16. Relatively soon after that I landed the 4Lz."

Compared with the rest of the sQuad, Nathan really didn't start very early, even a little bit late. He just learned all types of quad so much quicker than everyone.

Thanks sheetz for that video link. The audio is so bad tho, feel kinda funny that he landed his 4LZ while he was goofing around

 

[daphenaxa]

Regarding Nathan, he didn't start learning quad at very young age. I copied what I posted on the age thread about Nathan's quad:

Here is Nathan's count about timeline of his landing his jumps from an interview right after 2016 NHK cup. Thanks to the sheetz's translation.

"I first landed the 4T in practice when I was 15 and also successful landed it at Nationals. Two weeks after landing the 4T I Ianded the 4S, and then the 4F when I was 16. Relatively soon after that I landed the 4Lz."

Compared with other top male skaters, Nathan really didn't start very early, even a little bit late. He just learned all types of quad so much quicker than everyone.

Thanks sheetz for that video link. The audio is so bad tho, feel kinda funny that he landed his 4LZ while he was goofing around

actually all the current top male skaters got their quads at or around 16

 

[alexaa]

actually all the current top male skaters got their quads at or around 16

No, not all. Boyang got his 4T at age of 14


https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ews-Boyang-Jin

"at 13-14 (2010-2011 season) I landed the triple axel. Then the 4T at 14, the 4S at 15. "

"It was 2013 when I first landed it and I was 17 years old. "

This is Yuzuru's timeline copied from Nathan's hip injury post back in 2016, don't how accurate it is. He must have landed the quad sometime before putting in program. But I should say the current sSquad, not top men

HANYU - Quad Progression, Long Program

2010-11 (turned 16) - 1 quad
2011-12 (turned 17) - 2 quads
2012-13 (turned 18) - 2 quads
2013-14 (turned 19) - 2 quads
2014-15 (turned 20) - 2 quads
2015-16 (turned 21) - 3 quads


I also copied this mamamiia's post from the Age thread, that is how Nathan learned 5 types of quad so fast.

" I remember Raf answered in one of the interviews that while he was against young skaters training quads, he had started to prepare Nathan for landing quads since he was very young by developing him techniques that he can use to easily transfer triples into quads. That's why Nathan was able to land 5 types of quad in such a short time. "

 

[daphenaxa]

No, not all. Boyang got his 4T at age of 14

Shoma landed 4f in competition at age of 16.

OK i didn't know about Jin sorry but the other ones are around 16. Shoma landed 3A and 4T at 16. 4F at 18. 4Lo and 4S at 19.

 

[alexaa]

OK i didn't know about Jin sorry but the other ones are around 16. Shoma landed 3A and 4T at 16. 4F at 18. 4Lo and 4S at 19.

Thank you for the information and sorry about Shoma’s flip, for some reason I was thinking about Nathan’s birth year but Shoma’s birth month

I have a question though, were those all in competitions, or in practices? Because for Boyang and Nathan, the numbers are a combination of both.

Anyway, we cannot say for sure Raf trained Nathan to do quads at very young age. And iirc, he was against boys trying too much when they were very young. I just couldn’t find that article. I am not a Raf fan lol. Actually almost all his interviews gave me some kind of headache except this one

 

[mau]

Actually if you listen carefully to what he says, he doesn't advocate for the young girls not to learn quads/3A at all. He even says "you can do it once" at one point because we all know that it's the skaters who have tried those jumps when young that can regain/keep them when older.
what he advocates against is the pounding of drilling those jumps every day in practice to include them in a program at age 13 or 14. Was Nathan competitively jumping quads when he was 13? no

As for the small age window for ladies, and peaking when young, well that's actually created by the fact the older ladies have no chance in the jump department against teenagers with no mature bodies. It's not that the older ladies can't jump at all, it's that they are competing with girls that do not belong to the same categories at all and the things that they gained like better presentation, maturity, artistry etc. isn't taken into account as much as the jumps.
Raising the age doesn't necessarily prevents learning the quad but it definitely would put more pressure on preserving the bodies of the young athletes and thinking long term so they can actually last enough to reach seniors instead of winning everything for 1 year at 15 and then being put aside forever.

Raising the age limit will make kids quit the sport even before reaching seniors. Skating is an expensive sport and you don't make money until you become a senior skater, young skaters won't stay on juniors until they're 18 with no money support when they can just go to college and do something else.

 

[daphenaxa]

Raising the age limit will make kids quit the sport even before reaching seniors. Skating is an expensive sport and you don't make money until you become a senior skater, young skaters won't stay on juniors until they're 18 with no money support when they can just go to college and do something else.

Please. Ice dancers and pair skaters that usually turn senior later (around 18 or 19) don't quit the sport. Junior GPs and events have prize money, the federation financial support will be the same and for the very promising /famous ones they could still partake in shows.
Kids already massively quit the sport before they turn senior or after 1 or 2 years senior without having made any money.

@bonita : Shoma pretty much competed his quads as soon as he landed them in practice so the age is the same for landing them in practice and competition. Only the 4S he landed maybe 2 years earlier in practice but didn't compete until later as it was not consistent/still doesn't seem to be consistent.
TBH i like Raf, he seems genuine and he reminds me of a lot of older people i know with the "tough love". definitely a character though

 

[mau]

Please. Ice dancers and pair skaters that usually turn senior later (around 18 or 19) don't quit the sport. Junior GPs and events have prize money, the federation financial support will be the same and for the very promising /famous ones they could still partake in shows.
Kids already massively quit the sport before they turn senior or after 1 or 2 years senior without having made any money.

@bonita : Shoma pretty much competed his quads as soon as he landed them in practice so the age is the same for landing them in practice and competition. Only the 4S he landed maybe 2 years earlier in practice but didn't compete until later as it was not consistent/still doesn't seem to be consistent.
TBH i like Raf, he seems genuine and he reminds me of a lot of older people i know with the "tough love". definitely a character though

How many junior skaters (that aren’t japanese) get invited for shows? Do you think the prize money for junior competitions is high enough for a elite level athlete in a such expensive sport? It’s low even for the senior competitions.

And in most countries it is very difficult for a young athlete of an individual sport to get governmental support.

 

[pandatours]

I don’t have much to add to the current debate other than to say I think Raf has learned a lot coaching Adam and Ashley who have reached their highest career success later on but he’s always said that he wished they had come to him earlier. In my mind this means that he is very good at fostering talent in different ways, just that it is easier to do so when a skater is younger.

The move must have been difficult for Marin but she seems much happier now. I know I’m not supposed to expect a drastic change the first season with a new coach but I’m excited!

 

[daphenaxa]

How many junior skaters (that aren’t japanese) get invited for shows? Do you think the prize money for junior competitions is high enough for a elite level athlete in a such expensive sport? It’s low even for the senior competitions.

And in most countries it is very difficult for a young athlete of an individual sport to get governmental support.

yeah but all those things you describe, the lack of ressources for small feds, a select few invited to shows, low price money are already happening. Those are not problems that would be created by a change of age rule, they are already happening. Who makes money in skating anyways? Appart from the Yunas and Hanyus and Maos? I am sure even people like Javier or Papadakis/Cizeron who have been multiple time world champs don't even make that much.
And by the way, the small fed skaters also suffer a lot from the fact they have to compete against wunderkinds with rotation advantages, since their progress trajectory is usually slower than that of big feds skaters with more support and better coaching/conditions.