Is the Spiral Overrated?

[mskater93]

But getting back to basic skating, would be the edge for a Spiral and the complicated edge for the Bauer. It's more than the turnout. JMO.

How about this - a three turn is a basic move on an edge on one foot and is first seen on the Pre-Preliminary MIF test as the waltz 8. Then the skater sees them on the Preliminary test as the forward alternating threes on a line. Then, a skater then sees them at Prejuv as the threes in the field, the Juv as the backward power threes and forward double threes, and then the Intermediate as the back double threes, the slide chasses and the perimeter stroking with back power threes. A skater still isn't done because on the Novice test there is the perimeter stroking with inside-inside threes and the bracket-three-brackets. The Junior test, the skater gets a small break from demonstrating three turn proficiency and then on the Senior test, the skater has both power pulls with double threes/quick rockers (inner and outer), the spiral pattern which incorporates 3 turns, the sustained edge step, and the quick step with the triple threes. The expectation level is different for each of these tests as to what a passing three turn will be and just because a skater can do it at a Prejuv passing standard, doesn't mean they should be skating Senior...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The expectation level is different for each of these tests as to what a passing three turn will be and just because a skater can do it at a Prejuv passing standard, doesn't mean they should be skating Senior...

and so it is with any of the basic moves or elements. A clearer question in this regard would be Just what is a Senior Skater expected to do?

The skater can certainly leave out an element or basic move in the LP if the skater is unable to make such a move for whatever reasons. As for a required element or move as was pointed out by a previous poster, one might have a choice, in this case, Spiral or Bauer? Not everyone is limber enough to do either of these. Getting a free leg high in the spiral and opening up at the hips in the Bauer would be the choice a skater makes between the two.

Choices in the SP could be 2.5 axel or 3.0 axel; 2 Lutz, or 3 Lutz; and Spiral or Bauer. I believe the Bauer should be rated higher. JMO.

 

[gkelly]

The skater can certainly leave out an element or basic move in the LP if the skater is unable to make such a move for whatever reasons. As for a required element or move as was pointed out by a previous poster, one might have a choice, in this case, Spiral or Bauer? Not everyone is limber enough to do either of these. Getting a free leg high in the spiral and opening up at the hips in the Bauer would be the choice a skater makes between the two.

As others have already mentioned, it's expected that all skaters, from pre-preliminary on up, can get their free leg to hip height. They have to do it for camel spins anyway.

Higher than that is extra and will be rewarded if it looks nice.

It's not expected that all skaters can do Ina Bauers or spread eagles because that relies a lot more on the anatomical construction of each person's hip joints than on skating technique or stretching.

Choices in the SP could be 2.5 axel or 3.0 axel; 2 Lutz, or 3 Lutz; and Spiral or Bauer. I believe the Bauer should be rated higher. JMO.

Don't you mean either 2 axel and 3 axel (the offical names of the jumps) or 2.5 axel and 3.5 axel (the number of revolutions in the air they require, respectively)?

As it stands now, men are never required to do spiral sequences, and junior ladies no longer get credit for them in long programs. However, they are all expected to do connecting moves. So they are free to do as many spirals that do or do not include features for spiral sequences, Bauers, or any other glides as they want and will be rewarded in the PCS, and possibly in GOEs for other elements if these moves lead directly into or out of the moves.

If it were up to me, I'd make a new kind of element called Field Moves Sequence that would have to include spread eagles, Ina Bauers, and/or shoot-the-ducks and could also include spirals, and give both men and women a choice to do that instead of a step sequence or spiral sequence in the long program. (I'd also give them the option to leave out a jump instead and do both.)

But in any case, all skaters always have the option of using whichever individual glides they personally do best as transitions.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good post and good suggestion to make Field Moves Sequences.

They are not the normal tricks (elements) like jumps and spins, but when done correctly and with a bit of razzle dazzle can make a Ladies' program more interesting. Can you picture a nice standard spiral connecting to a single axel? A Bauer already has a layback in it but could swoosh around into a pretty mazurka jump.

btw. Much has been discussed about the US Tests. Do other countries do Tests also? and if so, do all international skaters do the same tests?

 

[gkelly]

Each country's federation sets its own requirements for testing.

 

[skatergirl45]

I love the field moves idea.
I have a spread eagle in my program and it goes perfectly with the music. About the field moves, it should be optional. I know some skaters who are not talented in spirals, ina bauers, shoot the ducks, or any of that stuff. They should be allowed to do a footwork sequence instead.
As one of those spread eagle people, I say that this is perfect!

Back to the original question, the spiral is a bit over ratted. I know someone who was never a spiral person but after about a month of hard work, she was able to do a level 4 spiral. There is something wrong with that.

 

[AwesomeIce]

I love the field moves idea.
I have a spread eagle in my program and it goes perfectly with the music. About the field moves, it should be optional. I know some skaters who are not talented in spirals, ina bauers, shoot the ducks, or any of that stuff. They should be allowed to do a footwork sequence instead.
As one of those spread eagle people, I say that this is perfect!

Back to the original question, the spiral is a bit over ratted. I know someone who was never a spiral person but after about a month of hard work, she was able to do a level 4 spiral. There is something wrong with that.

I don't get what is wrong about someone who had a poor spiral but works hard and gets it to a level 4. Is it any different from someone who had a bad flutz but worked hard and got a true lutz? Or someone who is not by nature a good spinner, but who worked hard and got their layback to a level 3 or 4.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think that skatergirl's point was that a level 4 spiral should be very difficult. If a skater who does not have good positions was able to get a level 4 in a month, then those points are not being earned.

 

[skatergirl45]

I think that skatergirl's point was that a level 4 spiral should be very difficult. If a skater who does not have good positions was able to get a level 4 in a month, then those points are not being earned.

That was my point. This girl can barely do an above hip height spiral but can pull her leg up enough....................

 

[gkelly]

Most of the level features have nothing to do with how high the free leg is.

Certain difficult positions contribute to the level.

The quality of the positions as well as the edges contributes to the grade of execution.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I really don't know the levels of the spiral, but surely the lean and the edge mean something special. There is music for the spiral but not always where the CoP would like it. And three spirals in a row do not get to me esthetically No need for music for that.

 

[Mathman]

I really don't know the levels of the spiral, but surely the lean and the edge mean something special. There is music for the spiral but not always where the CoP would like it. And three spirals in a row do not get to me esthetically No need for music for that.

Here are the official requirements for levels, according to the ISU rules.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

* Three spiral positions with change of foot, forward and backward, inside and outside.

* One difficult variation of position.

* A second difficult variation on a different foot from the first one.

* Change of edge in a spiral (three second hold before and after the change).

* Unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (three second hold before and after the change).

* Free leg in total split position, one or both arms hold permissible.

You must do two of these six things for a level 2, three for a level three, and four for a level four.

That's it. What about music, aesthetically pleasing position, gracefulness of achieving the position or of execution of the element, quality and security of edge, flow, or pretty smile? Nope, the ISU is not interested. hwell:

At least, not for the base value of the level. As for GOEs, the guidelines are pretty vague, IMHO, as are guidelines for impact on PCSs. The only specific mistakes that you can get penalized for in the GOEs are:

SP No change of foot, -3 GOE
SP Only one spiral position (minimum, 3-secod hold) -2 to –3 GOE
SP Only two spiral positions (minimum, 3-second hold), -2 GOE
FS Only one spiral position (minimum, 3-second hold), -1 GOE

So I think it is no surprise to see a lot of skaters doing bad level three and level four spiral sequences. There is a specific reward for the level and not much in the way of reward or punishment for quality.

This aspect of the New Judging System may be a winner with skaters, coaches and ISU officials. With spectators and fans, IMHO, not so much.

 

[AwesomeIce]

That was my point. This girl can barely do an above hip height spiral but can pull her leg up enough....................

And if the rules say that that is what is required to get the higer levels, then I see nothing wrong with her getting level 4s. I mean, Level 4 shouldn't be reserved for the very few people who are capable of getting Cohen-like amplitude. You say nothing of this girls ability to hold a deep edge, or her speed, or anything else, so it is hard for me to agree with you that her being awarded level 4s on her spiral is wrong.

 

[gkelly]

Here are the official requirements for levels, according to the ISU rules.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

You must do two of these six things for a level 2, three for a level three, and four for a level four.

For the record, those are 2007-2008 rules. There has been further tinkering.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-S-levels.pdf

As of 2008-2009, the first feature (both feet, forward and backward, inside and outside edges) is mandatory for levels 3 and 4 but it doesn't count as a feature in itself; change of foot has long been a requirement in the short program anyway.

There's now a new feature: Holding spiral position (without any interruption) for 6 or more seconds.

As for GOEs, the guidelines are pretty vague, IMHO, as are guidelines for impact on PCSs. The only specific mistakes that you can get penalized for in the GOEs are:

SP No change of foot, -3 GOE
SP Only one spiral position (minimum, 3-secod hold) -2 to –3 GOE
SP Only two spiral positions (minimum, 3-second hold), -2 GOE
FS Only one spiral position (minimum, 3-second hold), -1 GOE

That's not true; all the errors and GOE reductions listed above for "Steps/Spirals" apply to spiral sequences as well as step sequences.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU Communication 1494.pdf

Fall -3, -GOE
Pattern incorrect -1 to -3
Stumble -1 to -2
Slow or reduction of speed -1 to -3
and
Less than half the pattern in spiral positions -1 to -3

In addition, there are now explicit guidelines for positive GOEs.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU Comm 1505.pdf

For spirals, they are:

1. Good energy, flow and execution
2. Good speed during sequence
3. Good body line
4. Highlights the character of the program
5. Superior flexibility
6. Creativity and originality

See also p. 7 of this 2004 communication for earlier, more general guidelines on both negative and positive GOEs for spiral sequences:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168551-185769-65184-0-file,00.pdf

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the new information. I have added all those documents to "My Favorites" for easy reference.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Quote:
1. Good energy, flow and execution
2. Good speed during sequence
3. Good body line
4. Highlights the character of the program
5. Superior flexibility
6. Creativity and originality

The last three get to me:

4. What spiral has anyone seen that highlighted the character of the program?

5. Flexibility - Some people are born with it, some not. not unlike the Bauer?

6. Can anyone point out an original spiral - one that you've never seen before?

 

[AwesomeIce]

Joe... have you ever actually done a spiral before?

 

[vlaurend]

Quote:
1. Good energy, flow and execution
2. Good speed during sequence
3. Good body line
4. Highlights the character of the program
5. Superior flexibility
6. Creativity and originality

The last three get to me:

4. What spiral has anyone seen that highlighted the character of the program?

5. Flexibility - Some people are born with it, some not. not unlike the Bauer?

6. Can anyone point out an original spiral - one that you've never seen before?

4. A number of Sasha Cohen's, as well as Michelle Kwan's (which always accented a dramatic section of her music)

5. Not true. I finally did the splits for the first time in my 40's. It just took diligent, correct stretching. The same cannot be said for Ina Bauers and spread eagles which are limited by joint structure, not the muscles (muscles can be lengthened).

6. Caroline Zhang's sideways full split spiral with one arm holding the free leg and arms clasped behind her back. Shizuka's side split spiral that went from supported to unsupported was unusual as well (see 2006 Olympics program).

But none of this will convince you because you just don't appreciate spirals. And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[antmanb]

And if the rules say that that is what is required to get the higer levels, then I see nothing wrong with her getting level 4s. I mean, Level 4 shouldn't be reserved for the very few people who are capable of getting Cohen-like amplitude. You say nothing of this girls ability to hold a deep edge, or her speed, or anything else, so it is hard for me to agree with you that her being awarded level 4s on her spiral is wrong.

But ability to hold a deep edge, speed or anything else is not a requirement to atain a level 4. I think the point that is being made is pretty clear - getting a level 4 on a sprial sequence is pretty easy. Compared to footwork sequences which rarely if ever get a level 4 awarded. Moreover, my own personal view on the spirals is that there are limited combinations of spirals which you can perform if you want to tick all the boxes to get a level four therefore they all mor or less look the same in terms of positions and changes of position.

I see many young girls at my rink who maybe have half their doubles and most can do spiral sequences that are level 4. Compare that to their spin or footwork levels where they are nowhere near achieving a level 4. So the question it really raises, for me, is this: Is a level 4 sprial sequence really that hard to achieve, especially by senior level skaters? I haven't got the scale of values to hand but can someone tell me what the base value for a level 4 spiral sequence is, and if it is the same as for all other level 4 footwork sequences?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe... have you ever actually done a spiral before?

Not in so many years. My point is that at the Senior level, it should not have more difficulty than that of a salchow. Not easy for students, definitely! but should not be a problem for seniors. I believe Seniors should be secure in their edgings. The flexible look of a spiral would be the same as one would experience in an acrobatic setting. It needs practice on and off the ice.

Maybe, I'm wrong in my expectations of a skater, but I feel I want to see perfect technique at the senior level.