Ladies and the triple Axel

[yume]

Less draconian could be something like "Only two triples, or one quad and one triple, may be repeated, but to earn full credit for jumps with the same takeoff, one of the repeated jumps should be directly preceded by another jump in a combination or sequence. For repeated triples and quads, neither of which is directly preceded by another jump, the second one will be designated as +SEQ and earn 70% of base value. The same applies to any third or fourth jump from the same takeoff regardless of number of revolutions."

Unless you can jump triples in both directions that seems a bit difficult for a jump like 3lz. As the second part of a combo it's imposssible. In a seq it would be ugly as hell imo.

More generous would be to keep the current restrictions as is but to introduce bonuses for variety of jump takeoffs, and possibly for variety of second/third jumps in combos/sequences.

That's a good idea.

 

[Happy Skates]

If encouraging different (first-jump) takeoffs is a priority,

The strictest rule could be no more than two jumps with the same kind of takeoff regardless of number of revolutions (which would also prevent skaters from replacing a placeholder double axel a non-axel triple or quad they had popped earlier).

Less draconian could be something like "Only two triples, or one quad and one triple, may be repeated, but to earn full credit for jumps with the same takeoff, one of the repeated jumps should be directly preceded by another jump in a combination or sequence. For repeated triples and quads, neither of which is directly preceded by another jump, the second one will be designated as +SEQ and earn 70% of base value. The same applies to any third or fourth jump from the same takeoff regardless of number of revolutions."

More generous would be to keep the current restrictions as is but to introduce bonuses for variety of jump takeoffs, and possibly for variety of second/third jumps in combos/sequences.

Or just write something like "Variety of jump takeoffs and approaches" into Composition component for singles.

I don't understand why a different first jump should be a priority. Many skaters (like Kostornaya the season before last for example), do 3 or 4 toeloops (2 3Ts and 2 2Ts) and all are in combinations, and no one seemed to care then. People just noticed Anna because she is doing it with quads.

But the important thing to notice with Anna's routine, is that she is still doing every time of jump. That more than you can say for some of the top men. I personally think that is more important, and I wouldn't mind a rule giving some sort of bonus for having every type of jump.

What is also impressive about Anna's routine (and Sasha for that matter), is that they do every type of combination, as they have +3T, +3Lo, and +Eu+3S. Almost no other skaters do that. Why should we not emphasize having a variety of combinations? That sort of variety is more impressive imo. We all know that Anna can do every type of jump as a solo jump, but can all skaters do all three types of combinations? No one cares when Wakaba Higuchi for example does 2 of the exact same combination (3Lz+3T), but for some reason, Anna's repeating of a jump entrance is bad. Even when she does it in three different types of combination.

 

[yume]

She isn't doing 3A.
I think too that a variety of combos should be rewarded. Doing -3T / -3lo / -3S combos in the same program is impressive. When Trusova did that at 2018 jwc i found it almost more impressive than her quads.

I think that if Anna had a clear outside edge on all those lutzes people wouldn't have noticed her 4 lutzes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think a rule that says a skater can only do the same type of jump 3 times as the first part of a jump element would be very fair. That would force a little more variety in these extreme cases of repetitive jump takeoff, while still making it okay to do two 4Toe's and two 3Toe's in combination, or two 3Axel's and a 2Axel-2Axel sequence, which I don't see a problem with.

Although, Shcherbakova would still be doing nothing but Lutz/Flip/Axel takeoff in her program. She would just replace one of the 3Lutz with 3Flip. Ah well...

Thinking about it more, there could also be a rule for a program to show 4 different jump takeoffs. That means Shcherbakova would need to do a solo 3Loop, which would be nicer.

 

[Shayuki]

Thinking about it more, there could also be a rule for a program to show 4 different jump takeoffs. That means Shcherbakova would need to do a solo 3Loop, which would be nicer.

Or maybe just stop artificially limiting what skaters can do, and just judge it as -PCS if the repetitive takeoffs take away from the performance.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The zayak rule already "artificially limits" what skaters can do. Having a max of level 4 on spins already "artificially limits" what skaters can do. The SP rules already "artificially limit" what skaters can do by requiring different jump takeoffs for each element. The LP rules already "artificially limit" what skaters can do by maximum number of jumps allowed.

Those "limitations" are there in order to prevent too much bloat and repetition. It's about finding a healthy balance. Requiring 4 different takeoffs in the LP is not much of a limitation, it's just asking skaters to show a sufficient variety of technique, which is a good thing.

 

[AshWagsFan]

I don't understand why a different first jump should be a priority. Many skaters (like Kostornaya the season before last for example), do 3 or 4 toeloops (2 3Ts and 2 2Ts) and all are in combinations, and no one seemed to care then. People just noticed Anna because she is doing it with quads.

But the important thing to notice with Anna's routine, is that she is still doing every time of jump. That more than you can say for some of the top men. I personally think that is more important, and I wouldn't mind a rule giving some sort of bonus for having every type of jump.

What is also impressive about Anna's routine (and Sasha for that matter), is that they do every type of combination, as they have +3T, +3Lo, and +Eu+3S. Almost no other skaters do that. Why should we not emphasize having a variety of combinations? That sort of variety is more impressive imo. We all know that Anna can do every type of jump as a solo jump, but can all skaters do all three types of combinations? No one cares when Wakaba Higuchi for example does 2 of the exact same combination (3Lz+3T), but for some reason, Anna's repeating of a jump entrance is bad. Even when she does it in three different types of combination.

I thought it didn’t matter that Anna does 4 Lutzes in her LP? Two are quads, two are triples. She doesn’t repeat any other jump in the program. The Zayak rules says a skater can only repeat 2 jumps in a program. So, 2 quad lutzes, 2 triple lutzes should be ok unless she pops one of the quads into a triple (she didn’t this past season though).

 

[AshWagsFan]

Also, Amber Glenn’s triple axel is beautiful! I hope it boosts her confidence like it did for Mirai, and I hope she becomes more consistent next season!

 

[gkelly]

The zayak rule already "artificially limits" what skaters can do. Having a max of level 4 on spins already "artificially limits" what skaters can do. The SP rules already "artificially limit" what skaters can do by requiring different jump takeoffs for each element. The LP rules already "artificially limit" what skaters can do by maximum number of jumps allowed.

Those "limitations" are there in order to prevent too much bloat and repetition. It's about finding a healthy balance. Requiring 4 different takeoffs in the LP is not much of a limitation, it's just asking skaters to show a sufficient variety of technique, which is a good thing.

From a PCS point of view, or from the point of view of general jump layout as one criterion of many under 6.0 judging, how much should variety of jump takeoffs affect the final placement, compared to everything else that goes into evaluating a program?

Which aspects should be legislated by TES restrictions (or by deductions for rule violations under 6.0), and which should be left to each judge's discretion to balance against the other aspects of the program content and construction?

E.g., how should a pre-Zayak-era 6.0 judge have considered the jump content of a program with four 1A (with open air positions), three 2A, two 2F, one 2T, and five split jumps, four from flip takeoffs and one from a lutz takeoff -- but no rotational lutzes, or any loops or salchows at all?

Should the system reward or penalize an IJS-era skater who could achieve spectacular air variations of double axels for doing something similar with an extra revolution on each of the rotational jumps? Or leave it up to each judge to consider in PCS?

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I think your discussion belongs to a different thread.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't understand why a different first jump should be a priority.

It shoudn't be a priority, of course. But what gkelly tried to say is that many skaters are performing one type of a jump with exactly the same context around it (like with the same entry to the jump or with same placement of the jump in the ice rink), which may look monotonous for some observes, especially if you are watching it live in the arena. So, if in one programme for example the same lutzes are performed in different parts of the ice (and in different relation to the ice rink space), that could be enough to call it a variety topic:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

There are only a few times when I really noticed a lack of variety in jump entrances. One was a LP from Vincent Z in which he had one edge jump (3A) and every other quad and triple in the program was a lutz, flip, or toe. I do think variety should be rewarded somehow, because if you can do quads it's not really incentivized given the limitations on the number of jumping passes you can do.

 

[Blades of Passion]

From a PCS point of view, or from the point of view of general jump layout as one criterion of many under 6.0 judging, how much should variety of jump takeoffs affect the final placement, compared to everything else that goes into evaluating a program?

Not much, but this really wasn't an issue at all in modern 6.0, because nobody was structuring their jump layouts like this. It was expected of competitors to show each type of Triple jump and nobody was trying to do +3Toe, +3Sal, +3Loop combos all in the same program to meet that requirement. Once CoP rolled around, many of the Ladies started omitting their 3Loop for a 3Flip (or 2Axel), which I did find to be sketchy. They got to leave out their most difficult jump and even gained points for doing so, by changing the 3Loop to 3Flip. Many people at the time felt a bonus point should be rewarded to competitors who did each type of Triple jump cleanly, as a way to incentivize not only a full variety of jumps, but also clean programs. That's not much of an issue these days, but I'd still be in favor of it.

E.g., how should a pre-Zayak-era 6.0 judge have considered the jump content of a program with four 1A (with open air positions), three 2A, two 2F, one 2T, and five split jumps, four from flip takeoffs and one from a lutz takeoff -- but no rotational lutzes, or any loops or salchows at all?

DID YOU JUST TRY TO COME FOR WENDY BURGE!?!?

Well I never!

I do wish Wendy had done 2Lutz out of her spread eagle instead of 2Flip, and a different edge jump instead of one of the open axels, but I don't think there was any real requirement back then. She had different air/leg positions on all of those open axels, which is a form of variety on its own and something nobody else was doing, but I don't think we need to be requiring people to show all different types of air positions.

 

[gkelly]

Not much, but this really wasn't an issue at all in modern 6.0, because nobody was structuring their jump layouts like this.

Not that extremely, no.

But it was certainly not unknown for a male skater to have, say three axels (triple and double) and four or five toe loops (quad, triple, and double) in a program, with only one each of the other takeoffs.

It was expected of competitors to show each type of Triple jump

If they could. Not all senior ladies could do all of the triple jumps. The medal hopefuls post-figures usually could do five different kinds, plus double axel, or sometimes they had one takeoff they omitted because they never mastered the triple or lost it temporarily due to injury. But in middle and especially lower ranks there were plenty of ladies with only two or three triples in their repertoire. So did they showcase variety by making sure to do doubles of all the different takeoffs they couldn't triple, or did they focus on playing to their strengths (especially when it was still allowed to do more than two double axels)?

Programs with five different takeoffs (two to four of them triple) were pretty common from 1990s ladies. Programs with only four kinds were rare but not unknown.

And how much difference did it make to the judges? I'd guess some judges cared more than others, but if a skater with fewer jump takeoffs had better choreography in most other ways, it wouldn't hurt them much.

Once CoP rolled around, many of the Ladies started omitting their 3Loop for a 3Flip (or 2Axel), which I did find to be sketchy. They got to leave out their most difficult jump and even gained points for doing so, by changing the 3Loop to 3Flip. Many people at the time felt a bonus point should be rewarded to competitors who did each type of Triple jump cleanly, as a way to incentivize not only a full variety of jumps, but also clean programs. That's not much of an issue these days, but I'd still be in favor of it.

I can see value for introducing such a bonus, but for many skaters applying it only for successful triples (or quads) would mean they'd have to choose between aiming for the bonus or aiming for a clean program.

So my recommendation is a small bonus for six different takeoffs successfully landed as doubles or better, and a larger bonus for six takeoffs as triples or better (double axel allowed for ladies). And then I'd also offer the large bonus for eight different takeoffs as doubles or better, after adding double walley and double inside axel to the scale of values. But that would be part of a more comprehensive rewriting of the SoV and well-balanced program rules to reward a wider variety of skills.

DID YOU JUST TRY TO COME FOR WENDY BURGE!?!?

Heh.
That jump layout stood out even by pre-Zayak standards.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Aljona Savchenko shared her first ever try of a triple axel (as a singles jump, not a throw) on her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CCvf2QAq0kx/
I know it's in harness, but wow! :eeking:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Aljona Savchenko shared her first ever try of a triple axel (as a singles jump, not a throw) on her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CCvf2QAq0kx/
I know it's in harness, but wow! :eeking:

OMG that's crazy. Even in a harness. At the age of 36.

Also awesome 3A, Amber!

 

[lzxnl]

Side by side 3A?

 

[Skatesocs]

Or just write something like "Variety of jump takeoffs and approaches" into Composition component for singles.

You've never been on Skating Twitter have you

 

[laceylou]

Way to go Amber Glenn!

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

3A jump - 13 ladies skaters for 31 years

From Wikipedia - Simple English:
"Only 13 female figure skaters have done a ratified triple Axel in competition: Midori Ito (the first one to do it), Tonya Harding, Yukari Nakano, Ludmila Nelidina, Mao Asada (the first one to land three triple Axels in one competition), Kimmie Meissner, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Rika Kihira, Mirai Nagasu, Alysa Liu, Ayaka Hosoda, Alena Kostornaia, and Young You."