Ladies Free Skate

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm personally among the crowd where the Biellman position is not my favorite. BUT...it seems apparent that it is a difficult position relative to others, hence Irina's TES base values on non-jump elements.
Yikes. I guess that means we might be in for a lot more Biellman's in the coming years......DG

Yikes! I thought I was the only one who was not impressed with that double jointed Bielman Spin. My question: anyone: How many bielman's are permitted in the CoP? If unlimited, then let's keep on dancing. :scratch:

Herios: The original gang of our were Irina, Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle - one was not going to make the podium.
Then it seemed like Joannie just might make the podium, so it became a gang of five.
Then complaints came in to add Miki and it became a gang of six.
But with Susanna, it may become the gang of seven in which case one of them will not make the 'last six to skate'. Horrors! They are all so good to watch.

Mathman If Irina is burnt out, will she decline to do the GPs next year and make Speedy's head more painful?

Joe

 

[JonnyCoop]

Mathman If Irina is burnt out, will she decline to do the GPs next year and make Speedy's head more painful?

Joe

Hmmmm.... Intriguing proposition. If it actually makes Speedy's head EXPLODE, it'll be worth it not to see Irina until Euros.

(Not that I'd be able to see her before Torino next season, anyway, unless I come up with some way to budget in a cable bill..... )

 

[mzheng]

I'm personally among the crowd where the Biellman position is not my favorite. BUT...it seems apparent that it is a difficult position relative to others, hence Irina's TES base values on non-jump elements.

Yikes. I guess that means we might be in for a lot more Biellman's in the coming years......

DG

But the Biellman position last year was not considered a difficult position for a level 3 spiral position. It was added only this season.

Yes. It is a difficult position. Thus you got high level of difficulty and higher tech points. But the repeated use of the positions 6 or 7 times in one program? Then you got get some points of at least in two eareas, the choreo and interpretation (dose all those Bielmans go with the music requirement?).

 

[mzheng]

Just goes to show you that Irina is vulnerable. I wouldn't be hanging that World gold medal around her neck just yet.

On the oposit. In a way, the judging panel at European might reflect what the judging panel like at Mosco.

 

[Eeyora]

Congrats to Irina for winning her sixth title as well as Susanna and to Elena as well.

 

[Kathy]

Mzheng, even though the judges scored Irina they way they did, the argument that she is THAT much better in all other elements than her competitors won't hold up with Michelle and Arakawa in the mix. If it was Michelle or Arawaka that had the jump content that either Poykio or Laishenko had at Europeans, Irina would not have won. It seems that all of the top ladies have their own personal demons to overcome for Worlds, But now I don't see any of them as a shoe in. It will be a very interesting Worlds.

 

[RealtorGal]

On the oposit. In a way, the judging panel at European might reflect what the judging panel like at Moscow.

What I meant was that she won by a fairly narrow margin, so there is room to pass her scores at Worlds. Once you mix in Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka, Miki, Joannie even, Irina won't have the luxury of skating a sub-par performance and hoping it's good enough for gold. It won't be.

 

[Kuchana]

Well it's not really that surprising to me that Irina won Europeans (congratulations Irina! ) even with a lackluster program and a fall no less and with less caliber skaters as well. I think like Michelle, Irina gave a subpar performance, knowing she didn't really have any competition. So in the case of both skaters, they were able to win because while they didn't skate their best, they skated better than everyone else. But the evidence of this skate is definitely giving an interesting twist to Worlds. I doubt now we can definitely say Irina is a shoo in so the competition looks much more interesting.

 

[Kuchana]

But the Biellman position last year was not considered a difficult position for a level 3 spiral position. It was added only this season.

Yes. It is a difficult position. Thus you got high level of difficulty and higher tech points. But the repeated use of the positions 6 or 7 times in one program? Then you got get some points of at least in two eareas, the choreo and interpretation (dose all those Bielmans go with the music requirement?).

I hope the ISU is going to put a rule about over using the Bielman or any other element. Doing it 6 or 7 times in one program is just over the top and lacks originality when you could do other interesting variations.

 

[Matt]

I hope the ISU is going to put a rule about over using the Bielman or any other element. Doing it 6 or 7 times in one program is just over the top and lacks originality when you could do other interesting variations.

I agree. I, personally, like a good Biellmann thrown in every once in a while, but 6 or 7 is too repetitive (*cough*, Slutskaya, Sebestyen, Timoshenko, *cough*). Anyone up for a Zayak rule on Biellmanns?

 

[euterpe]

I am very dismayed by the way Irina was held up in the PCS scores. It seems the PCS scores she gets are based mostly on reputation, not on the actual performance. Here's a summary of her performances under CoP this season, and the PCS scores she got for each:

1. Cup of China
5 clean triples, 3 triple combos.
Doubled 2nd lutz.
PCS: 57.44; two 8.00s (P/E, SS).

2. Cup of Russia:
6 clean triples, two triple combos (3/3/2, 3/2)
double combo (2z2t)
PCS: 61.5; one 8.00 (IN).

3. GPF:
4 clean triples (-GOE on 3F), two triple combos
doubled 2nd lutz.
PCS: 61.12, one 8.00 (IN).

4. Euros
3 clean triples. One triple combo 3t/2t.
Fall on lutz, singled Salchow, doubled loop.
PCS: 57.53; two 8.00s (P/E, SS)

CoR was Irina's best skate, and her GPF was not anywhere near as good, yet her PCS scores are almost identical.

Irina got a LOWER PCS score for her great skate at Cup of China than she got at Euros for a disastrous skate, with 8.00s in the exact same categories.

There is something wrong when the PCS scores seem to have no relationship to the actual performance. I would think that Irina's poor Euros performance should have received PCS scores in the low-to-mid 50's, rather than a higher score than a much better performance earlier in the season.

What this says to me is the judges are using the PCS scores to place skaters in the order they want them. And this particular panel was one of the most diverse I have seen at a competition. With Worlds in Moscow, I would not be surprised to see Irina to pull in a PCS score of 65 or higher, even if she doesn't skate well. That could give her enough of a margin to win over far superior performances by other skaters.

And this is progress????

 

[mzheng]

What this says to me is the judges are using the PCS scores to place skaters in the order they want them. And this particular panel was one of the most diverse I have seen at a competition. With Worlds in Moscow, I would not be surprised to see Irina to pull in a PCS score of 65 or higher, even if she doesn't skate well. That could give her enough of a margin to win over far superior performances by other skaters.

Not only the PCS, the GOEs as well.

I've watched Susanna and Irina LP from the clips. The protocol sheet shown that Irina got all positive GOEs for her spin. it was obvious that at least two of her spins travels a lot when she changed to her Bielman. IIRC, the CENTERING is the BASE requirement for a spin done well under CoP. Not to mention if some of her position (only one revolution) should be counted.

IMO, judge still confuse the difficulty and quality. Subconciously they think 'Oh, Bielman position is so difficult, so let's cut her some slack for not centering well', thus the positive GOEs. So in fact she got double rewarded for doing Bielman.

IMO, it is similar to double deductions (down grade, with negative GOE applied), for an underrotated jumps, although this is written in the official rule book. In this case skater got double rewarded for a not so well done difficult element (higher level, with positive GOE applied), but this is done due to the subconsiously judging (or in some cases could be biasd judging).

 

[equestrianguy]

Don't get me wrong..I love Irina,but she has done the same spins for most of her entire career. I love a good Bielman spin just as much as the next person, but it can be overdone. I give cudos for skaters that do different variations of spins and try new things. That is when extra points should be given to skaters when they change year after year adding new elements. I'm sure judges notice these things.. Just like in any type of competition.....

 

[mzheng]

Mzheng, even though the judges scored Irina they way they did, the argument that she is THAT much better in all other elements than her competitors won't hold up with Michelle and Arakawa in the mix. If it was Michelle or Arawaka that had the jump content that either Poykio or Laishenko had at Europeans, Irina would not have won.

Kathy, I hope you are right. But I very much in doubt. Ppl using 2001 GPF as a comparison to this European. btw, where was 2001 GPF hold?

Most fans now went with Irina's edges, speed and power are so **SUPERIOU** to the other competetors at European to adjust their arguments. I agree with you on that though, with Michelle and Arakawa in mix; both of them had comparable speed and power as Irina (Michelle improved miles on this earea this season), if not better the same edge control as Irina, and IMO, both appears more polished than Irina; the arguments from the fans could be different. But the judge result, I'm not so sure.

 

[Doggygirl]

Hi There...

I am very dismayed by the way Irina was held up in the PCS scores. It seems the PCS scores she gets are based mostly on reputation, not on the actual performance. Here's a summary of her performances under CoP this season, and the PCS scores she got for each:

1. Cup of China
5 clean triples, 3 triple combos.
Doubled 2nd lutz.
PCS: 57.44; two 8.00s (P/E, SS).

2. Cup of Russia:
6 clean triples, two triple combos (3/3/2, 3/2)
double combo (2z2t)
PCS: 61.5; one 8.00 (IN).

3. GPF:
4 clean triples (-GOE on 3F), two triple combos
doubled 2nd lutz.
PCS: 61.12, one 8.00 (IN).

4. Euros
3 clean triples. One triple combo 3t/2t.
Fall on lutz, singled Salchow, doubled loop.
PCS: 57.53; two 8.00s (P/E, SS)

CoR was Irina's best skate, and her GPF was not anywhere near as good, yet her PCS scores are almost identical.

Irina got a LOWER PCS score for her great skate at Cup of China than she got at Euros for a disastrous skate, with 8.00s in the exact same categories.

There is something wrong when the PCS scores seem to have no relationship to the actual performance. I would think that Irina's poor Euros performance should have received PCS scores in the low-to-mid 50's, rather than a higher score than a much better performance earlier in the season.

What this says to me is the judges are using the PCS scores to place skaters in the order they want them. And this particular panel was one of the most diverse I have seen at a competition. With Worlds in Moscow, I would not be surprised to see Irina to pull in a PCS score of 65 or higher, even if she doesn't skate well. That could give her enough of a margin to win over far superior performances by other skaters.

And this is progress????

Is there supposed to be a direct correlation between the PCS scores and the number of jumps completed? That seems to be what you are suggesting, and I don't think that's "in the rules" for COP. Not arguing what the rules SHOULD be, just questioning why the component scores should have a direct correlation to the jumps.

DG

 

[Tereza]

Susanna Poykio is the queen of European figure skating!!!!! No one comes close, she was robbed of gold!

Susanna Poykio for Olympic Gold 2006.

 

[Vash01]

Kathy, I hope you are right. But I very much in doubt. Ppl using 2001 GPF as a comparison to this European. btw, where was 2001 GPF hold?

.

2001 GPF was held in Japan.

 

[diver chick]

Most fans now went with Irina's edges, speed and power are so **SUPERIOU** to the other competetors at European to adjust their arguments.

Actually having watched the FP I got the distinct impression that I was watching a program that relied too much on jumps and spins and not enough on good and eye catching choreography. I am a huge Irina fan, have been since year dot, but I am not afraid to say that she is technical rather than artistic skater, and once the jumps started to go wrong I felt there was very little else in the program. Irina won on the basis that she had such a huge margin going into the free and her closest competitor, Julia, had a meltdown equal to that of Irina, topped off by the fact that her other technical elements (spins) were all high level and as such high scoring elements. It must still be a bitter pill for Julia to know that someone else skated as badly as you and yet they are standing at the top of the podium.

This COP is not working in the way that it was intended! The judges are still giving place-holding marks with the odd bit of movement IMO and as such it was a complete and utter waste of everyones time to bother changing the system.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This COP is not working in the way that it was intended! The judges are still giving place-holding marks with the odd bit of movement IMO and as such it was a complete and utter waste of everyones time to bother changing the system.

TT said it would be easier to cheat with the CoP than with the 6.0s. I have always agreed with her. It is showing up with Irina's scores, imo. The CoP may be good for skater who places 14th who can then look at the scores and make improvements, but for the top tier skaters it is pure 6.0 system.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

The Forgotten Jump...

I'm definitely with the "raised eyebrow" crowd on the component scores. I do like COP on the tech side.

In all the hullaballoo about why Irina won with 3 triples over Poykio with 5 triples and Elena L with 6 triples (although for some reason, that isn't mentioned as much) something important got lost. A single v. double axel.

Had Susanna completed a clean double axel rather than a single, her total score for the LP would have surpassed both Elena L and Irina. The base value for a single axel is .9 v. 3.6 for a double. That 2.7 points would have made the difference. (still would not have placed Susanna above Irina in total inc. the SP)

While Elena L completed the most triples by far, 3 of them recieved pretty significant negative GOE (the commentators mentioned her struggles) and she also got negative GOE for her double axel.

I'm thrilled that Susanna got silver! What a great accomplishment for her on the international stage. And we BETTER get to see her on the US TV broadcast!

DG