Ladies LP

[evangeline]

It is quite interesting that your thought on Yu-Na's uber fans are almost opposite to mine. If they are talking about PCS or other subjective issues, they would not be like what they are. Maybe like Kwan fans according to your standard. Grading subjective stuffs need the authority of experts.

As you clearly wrote, however, measuring the angle of edge does not need any special knowledge or experience because it is a mathematical thing. So, "if" somebody believes that he/she measured it accurately, then he/she has all the reason to claim that his/her result is correct. This is like science or mathematics where 1+1 cannot be 3 no matter how a great mathematician claims so. I think that's why Yu-Na's uber fan say Yu-Na's flip is perfect. Don't get me worng. I am not saying that they are correct. What I am saying is they have their own reason why they are so sure.

Well, you may argue that Yu-Na's flip is obviously outside edge and they are simply lying. No, I don't think they are lying. I think they simply say what they see. Or at least it is not obvious at all. Even at golden, many people say that it is inside or not obvious.

Personally I feel technical panels sometimes fail to be consistent. I know that they have known skating all their lives but it does not mean that they are always consistent. I think the number of technical panels should be increased from 3 to at least 5 or 7. They have too much power.

I think that Yu-Na uber-fans (like many other fans of other skaters) in this case see what they want to see. I agree with you when you say they're not intentionally lying, but they may just get caught up in their excitement to defend their skater. For example, I once commented on one of Yu-Na's videos on Youtube, complimenting on her program and beautiful jumps. However, I also wrote a short sentence on how I wished she'd improve on her spiral positions by pointing her toes or something like that--very soon after, people attacked what I wrote and said I was lying, Japanese, insulting Yu-Na. If they are convinced I am insulting Yu-Na, they would ignore everything else I wrote and zoom onto the comment about her spirals. If they are convinced that Yu-Na's flip is perfect, they would disregard opinions to the contrary and focus on the opinions/camera angles/whatever that agree with them. People see what they want to see.

And anyways, if the people on the technical panels (who have known skating their whole lives) are inconsistent, what are the chances that the fans will be consistent?

 

[ManyCairns]

Yu-na
She had the presense of a champion even from the 6-minute warm-up. Her high jumps with speed in and out, ability to "hit" (not every, but the important) rythm and making effective crescendo stood out. Oh her tears! Congrats!



I agree with Blades of Passion 100% on the double downgrading penality issue and think she should've been 2nd in SP, making her the silvermedalist.

The important thing is that Miki herself doesn't seem to be arsed about it and she's so happy with her come back!

Picture of Miki & Rochette talking after the medal ceremony (Link welcome):
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=0qmhmznlk1t&thumb=5

Mao
My heart went out for her... I screamed so much after her 2nd 3axel. Sentimentalism aside, I do think her speed, attack, telegraphing, use of music, etc. was not as good as the top 3 so I agree with her placement. It's a shame as her line is the most beautiful. I know Tarasova is trying to pull off a Kulik, but I'm worried.

Thank you so much for your comments. I love these "live" reports as I've always felt skaters can present very differently live from how they look on TV, and I love the little stories and anecdotes about simply being there!

Also found your comments on the skaters very informative. It sounds like you, Michelle Kwan, and probably many others really felt that YuNa most certainly had that "it" factor and really stood out this competition. MK kept saying in her commentary how YuNa just DOMINATED, and the more I hear it, the more I'm convinced! (not that it took much convincing, I love YuNa's skating).

Miki: Wow, loved that photo of her beaming at Joannie. They looked they were just SO HAPPY and I love to see that. What a difference for Miki from a year ago! Good for her, and for Jo, too! (Oh, and I'm in the camp who thinks URs are being penalized too harshly. Yes, they should be penalized, but this in effect "double" penalty is crazy.)

Mao: Not sure what to think. I'm quite willing to believe her contingent that the years prior to the Olys are ones in which they are trying different things, but definitely it's time to decide what worked, what didn't, and settle down into a realistic plan for the Oly season. Agree she could improve her telegraphing and musicality (although the latter may be from the odd LP this year -- it was one of those that seemed to elicit a strong reaction, love it or hate it).

 

[Blade Runner]

I think that Yu-Na uber-fans (like many other fans of other skaters) in this case see what they want to see. I agree with you when you say they're not intentionally lying, but they may just get caught up in their excitement to defend their skater. For example, I once commented on one of Yu-Na's videos on Youtube, complimenting on her program and beautiful jumps. However, I also wrote a short sentence on how I wished she'd improve on her spiral positions by pointing her toes or something like that--very soon after, people attacked what I wrote and said I was lying, Japanese, insulting Yu-Na. If they are convinced I am insulting Yu-Na, they would ignore everything else I wrote and zoom onto the comment about her spirals. If they are convinced that Yu-Na's flip is perfect, they would disregard opinions to the contrary and focus on the opinions/camera angles/whatever that agree with them. People see what they want to see.

And anyways, if the people on the technical panels (who have known skating their whole lives) are inconsistent, what are the chances that the fans will be consistent?

I've had similar experiences, but I have come to accept them merely as fringe elements of the figure skating landscape. Some of these "spilled over the banks" opinions can be understood in the context of Yuna's record breaking performances, as well as extrapolation of skating experts' glowing praise of her expressive, highly stylized brand of skating:

Peter Crick of ISU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4bx6h0kc2o&feature=related

Kwan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGRYfiWSwMA

Browning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjzZTKv1Fxc

Yamaguchi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-xkxgtqEg0

Tracy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZOGoPfavkM

Kwan/Button
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNDqBqh7Zs

I am actually shocked at the volume of Yuna's videos posted in all shapes and forms, various international broadcasts, her product commercials, home edited tributes, anything and everything to do with Yuna. What a dedicated group of fans, kudos to them..

 

[R.D.]

For example, I once commented on one of Yu-Na's videos on Youtube, complimenting on her program and beautiful jumps. However, I also wrote a short sentence on how I wished she'd improve on her spiral positions by pointing her toes or something like that--very soon after, people attacked what I wrote and said I was lying, Japanese, insulting Yu-Na.

that's uber-fandom for ya

 

[steyn]

I think that Yu-Na uber-fans (like many other fans of other skaters) in this case see what they want to see. I agree with you when you say they're not intentionally lying, but they may just get caught up in their excitement to defend their skater.

Yes, I partially (but not entirely) agree that they see what they want to see. Actually I wanted to insert "want to" inside a parenthesis like "they see what they (want to) see" but I forgot. LOL.

For example, I once commented on one of Yu-Na's videos on Youtube, complimenting on her program and beautiful jumps. However, I also wrote a short sentence on how I wished she'd improve on her spiral positions by pointing her toes or something like that--very soon after, people attacked what I wrote and said I was lying, Japanese, insulting Yu-Na. If they are convinced I am insulting Yu-Na, they would ignore everything else I wrote and zoom onto the comment about her spirals.

As for the spiral, people can have different opinions on whether Yu-Na has a good position or not. It is just a subjective matter in the sense that there is no objective standard on art. That said, if I understand Yu-Na uber fans correctly, they admit she does not point her toes (who can deny it?) but then argue that it is not important in judging the level or goe of the spiral in the current system. I think this has some (but not all) valid point. You and they are just talking about different matters.

The reason that they say you are Japanese or you are lying is primarily because they really have had many bad experiences with some Japanese guys. So even if you or other people have a perfectly good critical opinion, their first reaction is usually very defensive or even hostile. You may not believe but it is actually true that there are kind of battles constantly occurring everyday in many internet sites between Japan and Korea. So they usually think such a comment is from those Japanese. (I am not saying that Koreans are good and Japanese are bad. They belong to the same human beings.)

If they are convinced that Yu-Na's flip is perfect, they would disregard opinions to the contrary and focus on the opinions/camera angles/whatever that agree with them. People see what they want to see.

They actually do. They collect "all" videos available they can find, analyze them as completely as possible to their ability and develop plausible explanations supporting Yu-Na. I don't think that they are entirely correct and technical panels are wrong, but they have their own points as far as I understand.

The difficulty here is that, in theory, the nature of this edge issue is a kind of mathematical and it should have a definite objective answer. But ironically it is not obvious at all whether the edge is really outside or inside as I wrote in my previous post. Then again, you can easily guess that there are those Japanese guys who make their own videos and theories which try to "prove" that Yu-Na lips. So the battle continues. Sometimes such battle occurs here but they are just tiny tips of huge icebergs. This place is sort of a demilitarized zone.

And anyways, if the people on the technical panels (who have known skating their whole lives) are inconsistent, what are the chances that the fans will be consistent?

I can agree that in general the fans will be more inconsistent than technical panels. However, it does not mean that technical panels' conclusion is always better than that of the fans. This is particularly so when it is about this kind of issue which does not need any authority or whole lifetime experience of sombody to find the answer, just like no one need to wait for the answer of a mathematician to calculate 1+1 correctly.

I emphasize that I am not saying Yu-Na uber fans are right but just want to point out that they have their own reason which is understandable to some degree.

Finally, I just want to briefly add my own opinion on the issue of (f)lip and (f)lutz, which may be rather different from many people including Yu-Na uber fans. From the point of view of physics, it is not a good criterion at all to differentiate the two jumps by the edge at the last moment. I don't want to go details here but the keypoint should be whether there is so-called the "counterrotation" acting in the whole jump process. Even if the take-off edge of a jump is outside, it should not be considered as a valid lutz unless it has little to do with counterrotation. The same goes for the flip. In this sense, the current method using inside/outside edge is not satisfactory at all.

 

[evangeline]

entire post

Thank goodness for more reasonable Yu-Na fans like you that help balance out some of the more...extreme uber-fans. I love Yu-Na's skating, but some of the more extreme fans have been affecting my enjoyment of watching her (extremely petty, I know). Right now, I just avoid reading Youtube comments and try to enjoy Yu-Na's skating in peace

Anyways, your point about counterrotation in flip/flutz is quite interesting, though I'm not sure if I entirely understand--isn't having the correct inside/outside edge a prime requisite for the two jumps? Can you expand on it a little more?

 

[hikki]

Thank you so much for your comments. I love these "live" reports as I've always felt skaters can present very differently live from how they look on TV, and I love the little stories and anecdotes about simply being there!

Why thank you rallycairn. I really enjoyed attending the event and wanted to share my experience. Btw I loved watching Rachael Flatt, too!


Yu-na was wonderful and she won, with such pride and dignity.

Moderators, please feel free to move this to a more relevant place. I apologise.

Moderator Note: hikki, I moved the political part of your thoughtful comment to a new thread in Politics.

 

[shine]

Finally, I just want to briefly add my own opinion on the issue of (f)lip and (f)lutz, which may be rather different from many people including Yu-Na uber fans. From the point of view of physics, it is not a good criterion at all to differentiate the two jumps by the edge at the last moment. I don't want to go details here but the keypoint should be whether there is so-called the "counterrotation" acting in the whole jump process. Even if the take-off edge of a jump is outside, it should not be considered as a valid lutz unless it has little to do with counterrotation. The same goes for the flip. In this sense, the current method using inside/outside edge is not satisfactory at all.

I agree with you about the counter rotation. But I also believe MANY fans and callers who have been watching skating for YEARS and DECADES have the keen eye to recognize what a true flip should look like in REAL TIME. Many don't have to rely on the slowest of slo-mo to come to a conclusion about whether a flip truly looks like a flip or whether a lutz truly look like a lutz. The degree of accurary on a take off edge may vary from skater to skater, but my point is, when people NOTICE something is wrong, there is a REASON they notice is. When you have developed familiarity with watching a correct element for years, you are just bound to notice something when it appears aberrant. I'm all for being precise, but I have to laugh at the way that these fans go through such painstakingly fastidious effort to prove that Yuna is doing something right. Yuna just can't do no wrong in their eyes.

 

[steyn]

Thank goodness for more reasonable Yu-Na fans like you that help balance out some of the more...extreme uber-fans. I love Yu-Na's skating, but some of the more extreme fans have been affecting my enjoyment of watching her (extremely petty, I know). Right now, I just avoid reading Youtube comments and try to enjoy Yu-Na's skating in peace

Right. I recommend you to just ignore those Youtube comments.

Anyways, your point about counterrotation in flip/flutz is quite interesting, though I'm not sure if I entirely understand--isn't having the correct inside/outside edge a prime requisite for the two jumps? Can you expand on it a little more?

My understanding on the jump is that the 5 different kind of jumps have quite distinct mechanisms. That's why they are separately evaluated. In particular, the difference between the lutz and the flip is not merely a small difference of take-off edge, which is just one consequence of the whole jump process and the detailed status of the last-moment edge can vary depending on the body shape of skaters. For example some skaters may have slightly bent legs, outword or inward, which could affect the angle of the edge. Or just minor difference in the position of knee at the last moment could change the angle accordingly without affecting the whole jump process.

In the flip the force of rotation ("torque" in physics terminology) comes from the speed of the skater. By toe picking, the speed changes to rotation around the toe pick point which is better to be close to the virtual line extended from the ice mark drawn by the left foot so that two feet can be tightly combined together to form the rotational axis and to maximize the rotational speed. If this is properly executed the take-off edge would become naturally almost flat, slightly inside for many skaters. The icemark of the flip is almost straight.

In the lutz jump the source of the rotational force is different. It is from the reaction force that the left foot acts on the ice. Compared to the flip, the toe pick position is in the opposite side of the virtual line of the icemark. So the icemark in this case is not almost straight but makes a curve like S ("counter rotation"). It is like a spring bent and then released. To get a maximum reaction force, the take-off edge is better to be deep outside. If the edge is shallow, even if it is outside, it is scientifically iimpossible to generate reaction force for counter rotation and the jump becomes "flutz". It is not lutz because it is not counter rotational; it is sort of a flip but is badly excuted in the sense that it does not effectively use the flip mechanism either. It is hard to explain without help of proper pictures with my poor English but these are the mechanisms I understand from the point of view of physics.

As clear from above, the edge status is just a consequence of the whole process and the flat edge cannot be the boundary distinguishing two jumps. More fundamental is the source of the rotational force, the relative positions between two feet and the center of gravity of the skater's body. Also IMHO icemark is much better evidence than edge to distinguish two jumps.

AFAIK, ISU rule does not allow technical panels to view the slow-motion video for this matter, which is contrary to the case of under rotation. I believe the reason behind this rule is because the differece of the jumps is much more than just the edge at the last moment, as I explained.

 

[steyn]

I agree with you about the counter rotation. But I also believe MANY fans and callers who have been watching skating for YEARS and DECADES have the keen eye to recognize what a true flip should look like in REAL TIME. Many don't have to rely on the slowest of slo-mo to come to a conclusion about whether a flip truly looks like a flip or whether a lutz truly look like a lutz. The degree of accurary on a take off edge may vary from skater to skater, but my point is, when people NOTICE something is wrong, there is a REASON they notice is. When you have developed familiarity with watching a correct element for years, you are just bound to notice something when it appears aberrant.

I agree.

I'm all for being precise, but I have to laugh at the way that these fans go through such painstakingly fastidious effort to prove that Yuna is doing something right. Yuna just can't do no wrong in their eyes.

I disagree. I am not saying that Yu-Na is perfect. Frankly I really don't know whether she lips or not. But I don't think their effort is completely meaningless because most of the people including here think that the edge is the absolute criterion. Moreover, most of TV commentators in the world including Midori Ito of Japan say that Yu-Na's flip is a real flip. So I cannot blame those uber fans even if I don't completely support their viewpoint.

 

[Blade Runner]

I agree. I think that this discussion should be moved to the politicall section.

If we talk only about figures of skating here(IMHO it can be less than interesting), then I agree, but we cannot avoid the inclusion of fans and their psyche in the discussion because of the over-heated rivalries between the two of the most talented skaters today.

Some of the best rivalries in the past(Kwan/Cohen, not to mention the high-impact kind between Harding/Kerrigan) did not have this international dimension since they are all Americans. In general, we Americans tend to have a more isolated view of ourselves, and as an example, its been famously reported that only 1 out of 10 Americans could locate Iraq on the map, on the eve of the Iraq war.

I sincerely hope that figure skating fans are not so insular and provincial that we can ONLY dwell in the most extremely narrow confines of the sport itself(lip/flip, lutz/flutz, etc), and not have a more broad view of things with some connection, however remote it may be, to the sport that we all love. Besides, from a humanist point of view, I think we can all be a better world citizen by discussing these geopolitical subjects of international dimension. We will all be better for it, and better skating fans.

Moderator note: The political discussion is now in the political forum

 

[ks777]

wow, this thread is still going strong.. although nobody is talking about figure skating anymore.

 

[hikki]

Some Americans hated Japan not because of Perl Harbor but because of Toyota in 1980s as I remember.

You made me laugh! We're gonna have to hate India for their call centre invasion now perhaps.

Anyway I tried to open a thread regarding the (irrelevant) topic in the Politics form but it says I don't have enough priviledge to open a new thread there.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but did anyone notice that the announcer guy at Staples Center, when calling Miki Ando, said "She's here representing CANADA, here is, Miki Ando!" ??? I was at the rink thinking WTF!! Obviously it didn't affect her one bit!

 

[dorispulaski]

Moderator note: I just moved the political discussion to the Politics forum, inside Le Cafe.

Here is the link to the new thread:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27490


There are still people who want to discuss the skating part of the Ladies LP, and their comments are being lost in the political discussion. OTOH the comments you have all made have been thoughtful and interesting, and we hope the political discussion continues, too.

Unfortunately, posters who have made fewer than 100 comments cannot post yet in the Politics forum. This bar is set because we were getting spammed by political operatives with no interest in skating during the last American presidential election. I'm sorry for the inconvenience this causes our newer members who may want to weigh in on the political implications of skating, but it got to the point where we could not handle the increased traffic.

In any case, we hope you will all post long and post often, both on the subjects of skating and politics.

 

[dannyascii]

Just a quick question:
Could someone please explain to me why Kim's spiral sequence got the highest GOE marks of the night? It is by no means the best spiral I don't think (lacks extension, and her free leg foot looks like a club). Maybe someone could enlighten me?

 

[Mathman]

Just a quick question:

Could someone please explain to me why Kim's spiral sequence got the highest GOE marks of the night?

I think it is because of the momentum that she carried with her after the short program.

I have notice that about the New Judging System. If you do a great short program and are way out in front, the judges will automatically give you high GOEs and high PCSs in the long, even if you don't skate as well.

 

[steyn]

Just a quick question:
Could someone please explain to me why Kim's spiral sequence got the highest GOE marks of the night? It is by no means the best spiral I don't think (lacks extension, and her free leg foot looks like a club). Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Partly because she was lucky at that night and partly because her spiral is goe friendly.

According to the protocol she got three +1's and six +2's for her spiral. In the current system two judges are randomly ignored and, among the rest, the lowest and the highest goes are also not counted. To get +2 goe, three +1's should not be counted, which is possible only when two +1's are from those randomly ignored judges. So at that night Yu-Na was really lucky to get +2 goe.

In comparison, Alissa Czisny initially got the same goes as Yu-na from the judges, i.e., three +1's and six +2's but her final goe was +1.8 because one of +2's was not counted.

Another reason that Yu-Na's spiral gets high goe is because it is goe friendly in the current judging system. There are six items for goes and, although she is not so flexible, her spiral seems to satisfy 3-4 items which corresponds to +2 goe.

 

[yunaddiction]

Just a quick question:
Could someone please explain to me why Kim's spiral sequence got the highest GOE marks of the night? It is by no means the best spiral I don't think (lacks extension, and her free leg foot looks like a club). Maybe someone could enlighten me?

ice coverage, edge control, speed and maybe the dignity.

 

[dannyascii]

I guess that makes sense...
Her spirals are still ugly though.

I think it is because of the momentum that she carried with her after the short program.

I have notice that about the New Judging System. If you do a great short program and are way out in front, the judges will automatically give you high GOEs and high PCSs in the long, even if you don't skate as well.

Yea, I've noticed that too...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Another reason that Yu-Na's spiral gets high goe is because it is goe friendly in the current judging system. There are six items for goes and, although she is not so flexible, her spiral seems to satisfy 3-4 items which corresponds to +2 goe.

Can anyone explain what is GoE friendly?

Flexibility means there is no struggle to get the leg in its proper position in a ballet-like fashion. Ballet-like fashion includes turned out knee and pointed toe.

Edging which is more about skating should be pronounced. Changes of edges should be as they occur in school figures. No wobbling or bobbling.

Catch foot spirals are a waste of time, imo, since they bring nothing to the program except points for doing so little. But it is the one position one doesn't have to worry about being ballet-like.

None of the current crop of ladies comes anywheres near Kwan's change of edge spiral.