Medalists in major events for Women- you be the judge

[chloepoco]

Ito handled the pressure in both 1989 and 1990, when she was in contention. She won more Grand Prix events than anyone else during her competitive time period as well.

Saying she failed because of pressure in 1991 is nonsense. Laetitia Hubert SLAMMED into Ito right before the SP, likely cracking a rib or two and cutting her foot. She was clearly injured and yet she went out and delivered a great program...with the exception of running out of room on her combination jump and literally falling out of the rink. LOL. It's hardly a surprise that after incurring all these injuries she wouldn't be capable of delivering in the LP.

As for everyone else, *shrug*. There is always pressure.

I agree. I thought it was amazing that she was able to hop right back up and continue on as if nothing happened! What an athlete!!!

 

[janetfan]

Midori skated extremely well at the Calgary Olympics. Had she not taken herself out of contention during the figures phase of the competition she would have been hard to keep off the podium. Perhaps her poor figures and politics kept her off.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl3PelmX05M

Interesting - the Rippon styled jump with two arms over the head and the entry to her 2A. When was the last we saw anybody do that? It's a monster 2A on top of the difficult entry.

 

[dorispulaski]

That's one of the greatest ever SP's by a lady, IMO! love: Midori!!)

The HEIGHT of that 3Lp as the 2nd jump in the combination!

The changes in position in the camel spin, in character & Time to the music!

The speed in the final combo spin!

Not to mention the really nice position of her arms in that Rippon jump!
Midori!!

 

[gkelly]

Now looking back at the events, I must say Worlds 1996 is probably my favorite Ladies event, because the top skaters both skated cleanly and to wonderful programs that are considered to be signature pieces now. It was a tough decision but I agree with the judges because MK left more of an impact that night.

The top 2 skaters, yes, both great that night.

And Lipinski had an exciting long after barely making it past the short.

But everyone else was disappointing or flat-out painful to watch (Ito ).

Looking at the field as a whole, I much enjoyed the men's competition better than the ladies that year.

 

[pangtongfan]

Ito handled the pressure in both 1989 and 1990, when she was in contention. She won more Grand Prix events than anyone else during her competitive time period as well.

Saying she failed because of pressure in 1991 is nonsense. Laetitia Hubert SLAMMED into Ito right before the SP, likely cracking a rib or two and cutting her foot. She was clearly injured and yet she went out and delivered a great program...with the exception of running out of room on her combination jump and literally falling out of the rink. LOL. It's hardly a surprise that after incurring all these injuries she wouldn't be capable of delivering in the LP.

As for everyone else, *shrug*. There is always pressure.

She was 10th after the figures at the 1990 Worlds. It looked like she might be out of the medals at that point. Even after winning the short program she was still only 5th overall and needed a miracle from other skaters placings regardless of how dominant she could win the long program to win the gold. So no there wasnt much pressure on her there after figures.

Who knows how she would have skated at the 91 Worlds healthy. Her mistake in the short program which worsened her injuries was a bizarre one at best. At Skate America earlier that season she had crumbled under the pressure of facing a clean Kristi and faltered and lost. And we all remember the 92 Olympics. There is very little evidence of her being able to stand up to the pressure of being favored, maybe she could have done it some of the time, but it is foolish to presume she would have all of the time.

The only year she really had that kind of pressure before figures were gone was the 1989 Worlds.

 

[Blades of Passion]

She was 10th after the figures at the 1990 Worlds. It looked like she might be out of the medals at that point.

Her low placement in the figures meant there was EXTREME pressure on her to place 1st in both the SP and LP, in order to pull up. Especially as the reigning Champion. And she did.

I'm quite sure she was only placed that low in figures anyway because it was the last year they were in place. It was assumed she would be unbeatable the next 2 years, so they wanted to try and give someone else a chance to win the title.

 

[dlgpffps]

1996 Worlds
TIE 1. Lu Chen and Michelle Kwan (I HAVE to)
3. Irina Slutskaya

The only occasion when a tie was actually in order. If I had to choose, I would give Lu Chen a slight edge... just because her Rachmaninoff is absolutely gorgeous. She had a six triple program to Michelle's seven, but it was her 6.0 moment. I even love it more than her Butterfly Lovers performance at Nagano (although the former doesn't make me cry). Too bad two spectacular skaters skated lights out that night and one eventually had to lose.

 

[janetfan]

The only occasion when a tie was actually in order. If I had to choose, I would give Lu Chen a slight edge... just because her Rachmaninoff is absolutely gorgeous. She had a six triple program to Michelle's seven, but it was her 6.0 moment. I even love it more than her Butterfly Lovers performance at Nagano (although the former doesn't make me cry). Too bad two spectacular skaters skated lights out that night and one eventually had to lose.

Very interesting and agree with you but also with blades about a tie. I can never decide who won in '96. When I watch LuLu's LP I think she deserved to win. Then if I watch Michelle I get the same feeling. Both were so good and after wondering about it all these years I think a tie is the way to go.

Thanks for that blades - one less skating dilema clogging my memories.

 

[pangtongfan]

I'm quite sure she was only placed that low in figures anyway because it was the last year they were in place. It was assumed she would be unbeatable the next 2 years, so they wanted to try and give someone else a chance to win the title.

You couldnt be more wrong on that. She might have been undermarked in figures in 88 or earlier (this I have no idea of, most say her figures werent that good). However she completely blew her last figure at the 1990 Worlds- the loop, actually hopping/stumbling well out of the figure. She was lucky and probably given a gift to even be 10th. Everyone at the time talked about how much better she performed in figures at the 1989 Worlds (where she was 6th in that phase).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT7gFv1QqLY

If anything yet another example how much harder it is to be the favorite as she was not the clear favorite to win the 89 Worlds like she was going into 1990.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You couldnt be more wrong on that. She might have been undermarked in figures in 88 or earlier (this I have no idea of, most say her figures werent that good). However she completely blew her last figure at the 1990 Worlds- the loop, actually hopping/stumbling well out of the figure. She was lucky and probably given a gift to even be 10th.

Well it would depend where she hopped out of the figure. If she had already completed most of it, shouldn't be a huge deal. The three figures are averaged together anyway so that means her other figures must have been scored low for her to end up 10th.

Either way - she delivered in the both the SP and LP. The actual skating and performance section of the competition, rather than the "trace this shape no matter how slowly you do it" part of the competition.

 

[pangtongfan]

Nobody at the time even suggested Ito could have been higher in figures at the 1990 Worlds. You are the first one who has ever suggested this (as you have been the first on quite a few other things such as Kwans undefeated 95-96 season which never happened ). Some were irate when she didnt win in the end, but her figures placing would not be debated except for being lower.

And when the part of the competition you refer to as "trace this shape no matter how slowly you do it" was eliminated suddenly Ito wasnt always this heroic free skater under pressure she had been before. In fact I dont remember even one clean long program after the 1990 Worlds including her excellent performances (eg- 91 Lalique). Spin it how you want but I doubt that is just a coincidence, and it is naive to think all her performances in free skating from 86-90 would have been exactly the same with the pressure of being one of the favorites or the favorite each time out. Especialy with the hopes of Japan and their overzelous media on her shoulders which was never actually the case from 86-88 since with the figures she never really stood a chance anyway and everyone including the Japanese knew it.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nobody at the time even suggested Ito could have been higher in figures at the 1990 Worlds.

That's nice. The judging of figures was political, just like every other aspect of the sport. They were not well documented either, so there is not enough evidence to argue either way.

And when the part of the competition you refer to as "trace this shape no matter how slowly you do it" was eliminated suddenly Ito wasnt always this heroic free skater under pressure she had been before. In fact I dont remember even one clean long program after the 1990 Worlds including her excellent performances (eg- 91 Lalique).

She was clean at NHK in 1990. And even with figures at 1989 and 1990 Worlds, she was still very much in contention and won both the SP and LP (remember the value of figures was lowered those seasons). It's very likely that pressure got to her more after that, although her physical health may have been a factor too. She had been doing WAY harder jump content than anyone else in the World for 10 years straight at that point.

Spin it how you want but I doubt that is just a coincidence, and it is naive to think all her performances in free skating from 86-90 would have been exactly the same with the pressure of being one of the favorites or the favorite each time out.

Perhaps, but I would love to see how Katarina Witt and others would have stood up to pressure if they knew they had to defeat someone who was doing 7-Triple Long Programs with very difficult combinations. The best Katarina Witt ever did was a 5 Triple program -- once. Nobody else from 1984-1988 ever even did more than a 4 Triple LP.

 

[Olympia]

You bring up a good point: Ito was under a phenomenal amount of pressure from the Japanese public and probably their skating federation. I think that no recent Japanese skater endured a similar amount; probably the closest contemporary parallel is YuNa. Ito was simultaneously her country's first real hope for an international gold medal and the most formidable jumper in the world. YuNa fills the same position today, except for Korea instead of Japan. I'm sure that kind of expectation can really psych a skater out. Kim was luckier than Ito in one significant way: she wasn't training in her home country. Orser, Wilson, and the other members of Team YuNa really deserve the gratitude of the skating world for building that cocoon around YuNa.

I remember a few competitions where Midori had the most distressing deer-in-the-headlights look. Didn't she once publicly apologize to the entire country of Japan for not winning? I think that comeback she made in the long program in the 1992 Olympics, when she managed that triple axel, was one of the most amazing moments in skating. For sheer determination, I've rarely seen the like.

 

[pangtongfan]

That's nice. The judging of figures was political, just like every other aspect of the sport. They were not well documented either, so there is not enough evidence to argue either way.

But there is evidence in this case. There is video footage of her disaesterous loop figure at the 1990 Worlds which rightfully buried her in 10th. You can see even by her reaction she knows it was a fatal showing.

Perhaps, but I would love to see how Katarina Witt and others would have stood up to pressure if they knew they had to defeat someone who was doing 7-Triple Long Programs with very difficult combinations. The best Katarina Witt ever did was a 5 Triple program -- once. Nobody else from 1984-1988 ever even did more than a 4 Triple LP.

Who knows. Witt was never Itos equal in technical ability, no arguing that. In fact nobody of that time period was even close. Ito was never Witts equal in artistic ability though, and in the 86-88 period was an enormous amount behind in that area in fact (her artistry in 86 and 87 was quite amateurish really though I agree with her huge technical edge she already should have been right at the top in free skating). So Ito would have had to handle the pressure and stand up all of those very difficult jumps she was trying in 86-88 as she did with far less pressure to be able to beat Witt, even in the hypothetical of completely fair judging.

 

[gkelly]

Perhaps, but I would love to see how Katarina Witt and others would have stood up to pressure if they knew they had to defeat someone who was doing 7-Triple Long Programs with very difficult combinations. The best Katarina Witt ever did was a 5 Triple program -- once. Nobody else from 1984-1988 ever even did more than a 4 Triple LP.

None besides Ito may have gotten full credit for five triples during that time period, but here are a few who gave it a good shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dvbODMnF5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNnyindwb1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HKmZdREuZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUUDmn0lvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1awmbS2glY

 

[doubleflutz]

Ito was never Witts equal in artistic ability though

Quite right. Ito was her superior in every way.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But there is evidence in this case. There is video footage of her disaesterous loop figure at the 1990 Worlds which rightfully buried her in 10th. You can see even by her reaction she knows it was a fatal showing.

I wouldn't call the clip you showed disastrous.

Witt was never Itos equal in technical ability, no arguing that. In fact nobody of that time period was even close. Ito was never Witts equal in artistic ability though, and in the 86-88 period was an enormous amount behind in that area in fact (her artistry in 86 and 87 was quite amateurish really though I agree with her huge technical edge she already should have been right at the top in free skating).

Midori Ito was delightful. Her LP's from 86-88 may not have been as wonderful as her 1985 LP, but she still clearly felt her music. Every Short Program she had during this period was excellent, with her 1988 SP being an all-time best.

Witt's 1987 LP at Worlds vs. Midori's LP at 1988 Olympics is a tough call. The former deserves a 6.0 for presentation and the latter deserves a 6.0 for technical merit. I might give a slight edge to Witt. Artistry!

Katarina Witt

Midori Ito

Although if you score CoP style and add in the lead Midori would have in the SP...Witt can't win.

Then there is of course Midori's 1989 LP at Worlds which beats almost anything on its own.

Top That