Mid-point base value may be given to URed jumps

[Bennett]

In Japanese
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20100228-00000008-jij-spo

If your triple jump is URed, your base value would be not that of the equivalent double jump but a mid-point value between the two. The ISU has been discussing this matter and may start this rule next season, according to the article.

 

[wonbinfan86]

I think this is a good thing... especially the risk takers that want to try quads/triple axels without sacrificing the point value of the entire program

 

[☆Genie]

Question: Can you get positive GOE with the URed jumps?

 

[CdnSkateWatcher]

I prefer this, and I can see it being a benefit at the low to intermediate and pre-junior ranks (in Canada, Juvie and Pre-Novice) too where underroated doubles do happen. It will encourage the skaters to try for the doubles instead of sticking with a safe single jump. The downgrade to a single is quite noticeable at the lower levels, where points are much lower, and the resultant impact much higher. My Japanese is non-existent, is there anyone who can translate this so that we can see all of the details?

 

[bethissoawesome]

I prefer this, and I can see it being a benefit at the low to intermediate and pre-junior ranks (in Canada, Juvie and Pre-Novice) too where underroated doubles do happen. It will encourage the skaters to try for the doubles instead of sticking with a safe single jump. The downgrade to a single is quite noticeable at the lower levels, where points are much lower, and the resultant impact much higher. My Japanese is non-existent, is there anyone who can translate this so that we can see all of the details?

It really doesn't say anything noteworthy... general overall translation: the ISU has been trying to encourage skaters to do jumps with higher degrees of difficulty, and has done so in the past by boosting the score of the 3A and not necessarily getting -3 GOE's across the board for UR calls, and that a conference will be held to determine whether or not UR jumps should be given the halfway value. They use Mao Asada's 3A as an example, citing the base score of 8.2 and telling how it drops to 3.5 if deemed UR-ed. But the article concludes with the fact that even though Mao Asada had the 3A, she still lost to Yu-Na by a wide margin, and that Evan Lyasek won the Mens OGM without a quad.

 

[Blades of Passion]

This would be one step in the right direction.

 

[Bennett]

Yeah, I would hate to see if lower-level skaters stick to single jumps when they should be moving onto double jumps.

 

[bekalc]

I was against this idea at first. But looking at the Olympics I felt (except for Rachael) that the caller was rather lax. I got the feeling that they were terrified of a downgrade scandal. So seriously they would be better of giving intermediate values and then being tough about it.

 

[CassieH]

I think ISU should make a jumping competition rather than keeps changing the rules. triple and quad jumps already have high scores because of their difficulty. If they failed, they shouldn't get the score for that. I 'm totally not agree with this idea.
Asada's three 3As were not ur according to her protocols. what's the problem?

 

[bethissoawesome]

I think ISU should make a jumping competition rather than keeps changing the rules. triple and quad jumps already have high scores because of their difficulty. If they failed, they shouldn't get the score for that. I 'm totally not agree with this idea.
Asada's three 3As were not ur according to her protocols. what's the problem?

The main point is to enourage skaters to try more difficult elements. For example, if a skater is working on a combination like Yu-Na's 3Lz+3T, but only hits it 50% of the time, they won't put it in the program because the downgrade can cost so many points. The same thing goes for solo triples or quads as well. It's kind of like a safety net. It will allow skaters to put harder jumps in their programs without the fear of it costing so much... and it will also allow them to get used to performing the harder elements on the international stage so that it isn't terrifying the first time they put it in, knowing it could cost them a medal, etc.

 

[Figure88]

Oh great. Watch the quality of the jumps deterioriate and all the skaters begin to underrotate.

 

[Bennett]

Encouraging difficult jumps may be one of the reasons. To me, this is one step forward to fairer punishments assigned to other flaws. URs should be called and punished, but should not be punished as much as they are now. Falling, a hand down, hands down, and stepping out often cost less than a slight UR that is barely visible with or without slow-mo. This kind of rule turns people off. IMHO, there is something really obsessive and nerdy about the way in which the skater loses huge points for a subtle mistake that respected professional commentators fail to determine even with the aid of slow-mo. It is a matter of degree. If the jump is URed enough for such knowledgeable viewers to find wrong in live, it should be deducted accordingly. But if the jump is fine-looking in live for ppl with decent knowledge, a slight UR shouldn't affect the results far more than other visible mistakes like a fall, hand(s) down, and step-out. It's not that a slight UR shouldn't be punished, but should be punished less severely. So I like the idea very much.

 

[Figure88]

Encouraging difficult jumps may be one of the reasons. To me, this is one step forward to fairer punishments assigned to other flaws. URs should be called and punished, but should not be punished as much as they are now. Falling, a hand down, hands down, and stepping out often cost less than a slight UR that is barely visible with or without slow-mo. This kind of rule turns people off. IMHO, there is something obsessive and nerdy about the way in which the skater loses huge points for a subtle mistake that respected commentators fail to spot even with the aid of slow-mo. It is a matter of degree. If the jump is seriously URed to the extent that you can see it in live, it should be deducted accordingly. But the jump is fine-looking in live for ppl with decent knowledge, that shouldn't affect the results more than other visible mistakes.

Regardless of whether it doesn't affect the appearance of the program, it's still cheating because the skater is trying to get credit for a jump that they can't do properly---and it's also not fair to other skaters who can fully rotate their jumps if there's really no penalty. At the end of the day, a laxer rule will incentivize all the skaters to underrotate their jumps and consequently, the quality of skating will deteriorate.

 

[DesertRoad]

It should be the same as edge calls. The tech specialist will mark it as under-rotated, the base value remains unchanged, and the judges apply the GOE as they see fit. This already works fine in marking flutzers and lippers.

 

[tarotx]

As a viewer I don't care that much about about under-rotations that I can't see. For example many of the the triple loop combination that have been downgraded and a few of Mao's triple axle's. (Miki's combo in the short was clearly under rotated and deserved it's downgrade. Rachael's long triple's not so much). I think it should be a goe issue but there really is very little room in that goe window these days so a mid point might be a good idea. As long as it is strictly unforced and the judges don't know it's been downgraded so they can "fairly" judge it's goe. There still needs to be some baseline and not just the skater tried for 3 revolutions. If it's a downgrade to the naked eye perhaps it should still be downgraded to the lower jump? Also if there is a fall or at least a fall strictly because of the under rotation it should still be given the lower base credit.

 

[CassieH]

I went to Yahoo Japan and found another interesting article about Asada plans to do quad jump. And the article about changing the rule was came out from Japan first, isn't it? Well, what can I say?
ISU raised up score of 3A and quad jumps. They made only tech specialists can see the slow motion video, and now this?
I think they'll keep changing the rules until their favorite risk-taker wins gold.
I mean, it's just ridiculous that ISU is discussing the scoring system of 2.5 and 3.5 jumps.
I think they should encourage skaters to jump properly rather than risk-take.

 

[Bennett]

Regardless of whether it doesn't affect the appearance of the program, it's still cheating because the skater is trying to get credit for a jump that they can't do properly---and it's also not fair to other skaters who can fully rotate their jumps if there's really no penalty. At the end of the day, a laxer rule will incentivize all the skaters to underrotate their jumps and consequently, the quality of skating will deteriorate.

The suggested rule is to punish UR, but to adjust the degree of punishment. If you slightly UR a jump, you'd be punished and be behind the ones who can fully rotate their jumps. It's not unfair to those who fully rotate a jump.

 

[yangjie]

this is not enough.

we should chenge about the GOE system.

There are differences between getting a PERFECT score in a HIGH SCHOOL and getting the PASSINHG MARKS in a UNIERSITY.

 

[bethissoawesome]

I think the only way to make this midpoint system more fair is ruling say that a skater who gets a UR call cannot receive +GOEs for the jump; in other words, the maximum value they can possibly get would be the mid-point scores. Skaters have been dinged for UR calls this season but have still received +GOEs on the jump, making up for some of the lost value. If they put this motion into effect, that no longer becomes fair, because a skater with a UR call could earn nearly the same marks with +GOEs as a skater who completed the the jump clean and fully rotated, but didn't receive +GOEs because of lack of transitions, etc.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the only way to make this midpoint system more fair is ruling say that a skater who gets a UR call cannot receive +GOEs for the jump; in other words, the maximum value they can possibly get would be the mid-point scores. Skaters have been dinged for UR calls this season but have still received +GOEs on the jump, making up for some of the lost value. If they put this motion into effect, that no longer becomes fair, because a skater with a UR call could earn nearly the same marks with +GOEs as a skater who completed the the jump clean and fully rotated, but didn't receive +GOEs because of lack of transitions, etc.

Absolutely. Why should a skater get +GoEs when a jump had been severely erred? Same as with Wrong Edge Takeoffs, when a jump loses its name - a Flutz or Lip is not accredited jumps in figure skating. Half the base value would be a step in the right direction. There should be no credit for easier rotations and landings. Half the base value would suffice. That should also satisfy the attempt concept.