Moving from Matrix Legacy to Gold Seal or P99?

[1111bm]

The rockers of Gold Seal and Pattern 99 blades are very, very similar. I wouldn't expect a big difference in spinning between them. I didn't favor one over the other for spinning after skating in each of them for a couple weeks.

Here is a graphic that I made by tracing the two blades and overlaying them in Photoshop. This makes detecting rocker differences easy, but as you can see, there isn't much difference.
https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_gold_seal_tracing_comp.gif

Wow, there's barely any difference in the profile, I didn't know they were this similar.

I might have the chance to get a P99 for a lower price (I'm just so curious and intrigued by how those differences in the blade profile impact the feel on the ice), but after seeing this, I'm not sure it's even worth it.

But I'm also confused. The lowest pick also looks identical on both blades, I thought P99 was supposed to have a more prominent one?

*My own GS blades had a side hone that didn't extend to the cutting edge, so contrary to some claims, it could add NO benefit in edge grip.

How did you assess that, just by visual inspection or did you measure it with a calliper?

Because when I switched to GSs, I could definitely feel a sudden increase in the grip on edge jumps, at that moment where you deepen the edge right before take-off. It was a lot stronger than what I was used to from my old blades (and despite having a shallower ROH on my GSs!) and it totally threw me off and took me a long time to adjust to that sudden 'grippy' sensation.
They also 'behave' differently f.i on forward crossovers when I sort of ride out each edge.
The difference in grip between a neutral or almost flat position compared to a more angled blade feels a lot bigger to me on GS blades.

I then just figured that this must be due to the side-honing, because it makes sense when I imagine what the cross section of a side-honed blade looks like.
(Or it's just me being hyper sensitive and it's all just in my head it's quite possible too)

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Wow, there's barely any difference in the profile, I didn't know they were this similar.

I might have the chance to get a P99 for a lower price (I'm just so curious and intrigued by how those differences in the blade profile impact the feel on the ice), but after seeing this, I'm not sure it's even worth it.

But I'm also confused. The lowest pick also looks identical on both blades, I thought P99 was supposed to have a more prominent one?




How did you assess that, just by visual inspection or did you measure it with a calliper?

Because when I switched to GSs, I could definitely feel a sudden increase in the grip on edge jumps, at that moment where you deepen the edge right before take-off. It was a lot stronger than what I was used to from my old blades (and despite having a shallower ROH on my GSs!) and it totally threw me off and took me a long time to adjust to that sudden 'grippy' sensation.
They also 'behave' differently f.i on forward crossovers when I sort of ride out each edge.
The difference in grip between a neutral or almost flat position compared to a more angled blade feels a lot bigger to me on GS blades.

I then just figured that this must be due to the side-honing, because it makes sense when I imagine what the cross section of a side-honed blade looks like.
(Or it's just me being hyper sensitive and it's all just in my head it's quite possible too)

IDK what that person is looking at or really comparing there because they are indeed different. I’ve worn each to compete and P99 is quite different than GS and the predominant larger top pick and bottom picks is some of the main features of why I love it.

I have photos of both which show it as well.

You also need to note that GS Has crosscut picks compared to P99s straight cut ones which contributes to different feel and especially grip.

 

[Bill S]

In case anyone is curious about the picks on Gold Seals vs. Pattern 99, here's a photo of the two blades together. Both were 10-1/4" blades that I purchased for my autumn 2019 experiments.

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-6-800px.jpg

 

[1111bm]

IDK what that person is looking at or really comparing there because they are indeed different. I’ve worn each to compete and P99 is quite different than GS and the predominant larger top pick and bottom picks is some of the main features of why I love it.

:think: So did the P99 also feel different on footwork or even more basic, just simple edges and stroking?

I remember being quite surprised at the GS's rather smallish toe-picks, because even my old blade had bigger (and sharper!) ones (also cross-cut), even though it was just a lower level blade. Although I didn't feel any difference at all on toe jumps or toe steps, so it didn't matter in the end.

.......................

To the OP: I can't comment on P99 vs. GS, but I switched from an Ultima blade to GSs.

In direct comparison the GSs have felt much more 'alive' on the ice, more agile but also less stable.

It's true that they're no gonna help you with mastering footwork that you don't already know how to do i.e. you will still need to know the mechanics of how to f.i. make a 3 turn or rocker happen, or how to position your shoulders and upper body to execute a choctaw. But I definitely had to work more on my old blades to get them to do my bidding, whereas on the GSs footwork feels smoother and not as rough.

They're also definitely less scratchy because the spin rocker to drag pick geometry of the GSs is so much different compared to Ultima models.

Although my crossovers were never noticeably scratchy, I always had to pay some attention so it wouldn't happen on a few strokes here and there. With the GS I don't have to do that anymore.

Also my Sal and Loop take-offs used to be pretty scratchy, there were always drag pick lines on the ice. That has instantly changed with the GS, and now it's just a clean curve with one nice, little hole from the drag pick where I have left the ice, even though I did not work on or change my technique (although one could make the argument, that maybe I had to readjust my position on the blades because of the GS's different spin rocker, and that has led to me unconsciously shifting my weight further back ).

ETA: I just remembered, a friend of mine (skated competitively as a kid) went from one of the higher level Ultima blades to an MK Pro I believe, and observed the same thing on his jumps.

Also my back inside loops 9/10 (at least!) used to have scratchings from the drag pick on the ice (although admittedly I had stopped practicing and trying to improve them a long time ago, because uh, I've got no discipline and outside loops are easier and a 100 times more fun ).
But with the GS they instantly went to only 1/10 having those marks and are mostly clean (if I do them at all ).

I can't do any spins, but on my um, let's call them failed spin attempts, the GSs turn very fast, especially on sit spins. Compared to my old blades it's like riding a wild horse.

Now all this might sound amazing, but keep in mind that I'm comparing GSs to an Ultima blade. It is very possible that you would get the same or similar results with a much cheaper, intermediate level blade from JW or MK, i.e. Coro Ace or MK Pro. I haven't tried these, so I can't say for sure (the only reason why I went with GS was their 8 feet rocker... oh and people saying how nice they are for footwork)

I'm also not sure I'm a fan of the added grip of the side-honed edges of the GS (at least I think that's what it is).

Another thing to consider: The spin rocker is very curvy and when I first switched to GS blades, I was constantly rocking forward onto my toe-picks. It took about 2-3 weeks until I had fully adjusted and it didn't happen anymore.
A fellow skater from my group had the same experience, and I don't know for how long she tried, but she switched to another blade pretty quickly.
I've also heard of one of the more advanced kids at my rink, that tried out GS blades and gave up after an hour because she couldn't handle the rocking sensation and I guess she wasn't prepared to invest more time to see if she could make them work after a longer adjustment period. So it's not just adults and/or lower level skaters who may struggle with this.

 

[davincisoprano]

Back when I was experimenting with blades, I tried GS and I hated them. They were far too curved for my tastes. I ended up going into a P99 and those were by far my favorites in freestyle blades. But I have always felt more comfortable on a 7ft rocker in all the years I've been skating. That said, I made a switch to dance and I was in MK Dance for about two years and I LOVED them, with the exception of the trial and error period, my edges were like butter. I ultimately switched to MK Dynasty last year due to not liking the rounded toepick on the dance. Dynasty allowed me to keep the shorter blade, but a higher stanchion, and while it was a big adjustment because they feel flatter than my dance did, it's been an overall good switch for me.

If they ever come out with a short P99 dance hybrid or whatever, I would try it for sure.

 

[Arwen17]

In case anyone is curious about the picks on Gold Seals vs. Pattern 99, here's a photo of the two blades together. Both were 10-1/4" blades that I purchased for my autumn 2019 experiments.

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-6-800px.jpg

Everyone in this thread is claiming that the GS is curvier than the P99, but based on your image the P99 looks way curvier than GS to me.

 

[JSM]

In my experience, it’s more like the transition to the front of the blade was more gradual with the patterns, and more quick with the gold seal. I also felt like the spin rocker was further back on the blade in patterns, vs more forward in the GS, giving them a very “curvy feel”.

I preferred GS for spinning, patterns for jumping. I use the GS on my current boots, though I honestly am considering going back to phantoms for my next set of blades in a year or two - it’s what I skated on as a kid, and I miss the bigger toe pick.

 

[Bill S]

You can't judge the overall curve based on that picture mostly of just the front half of the blades. The GS have solid sole plates (heavier), so they rest a little further down on the rocker in this photo. This causes the perception that the GS is flatter when it's not.

Here are measurements of the rockers that show the GS vs. several other blades. Stanchion height differences affect where the rocker sits on the graph and its rotation, but if you can mentally reposition the GS curve to lie on the P99, you can see that they are very similar, especially compared to the smaller 7' rockers of the other blades shown.

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/graph_rocker_gold_seal_p99.gif

Also, the overlaid blade tracings that I linked to earlier shows the similarities between GS and P99 nicely.

 

[JSM]

As an aside, the exact profile of your blade (particularly over time) is going to depend heavily on the skill of your sharpener or skate tech.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Back when I was experimenting with blades, I tried GS and I hated them. They were far too curved for my tastes. I ended up going into a P99 and those were by far my favorites in freestyle blades. But I have always felt more comfortable on a 7ft rocker in all the years I've been skating. That said, I made a switch to dance and I was in MK Dance for about two years and I LOVED them, with the exception of the trial and error period, my edges were like butter. I ultimately switched to MK Dynasty last year due to not liking the rounded toepick on the dance. Dynasty allowed me to keep the shorter blade, but a higher stanchion, and while it was a big adjustment because they feel flatter than my dance did, it's been an overall good switch for me.

If they ever come out with a short P99 dance hybrid or whatever, I would try it for sure.

If you liked the P99 and wanted a 7ft rocker, why not go with the MK Phantom? I have a feeling you may like it.

 

[Yannis94]

Hey,

I am very late to this but here are my two cents.

I went from Ultima Legacy 8 to JW Gold Seals back in the beginning of February. To me I felt more at home in the Gold Seals than I ever did in the Legacy 8. Then again, I was sort of forced to take the Legacy blade mainly because the shop I went to didn't carry much other blades other than Ultima blades. And as many people have pointed out, those blades are flat. Like props to Aliona Kostornaia to be able to jump and spin in them the way she does honestly. I couldn't spin in them to save my life. I was used to MK blades which over all have a 7ft rocker. But since the JW Gold Seals are also a lot curvier in the front, they have a 12" radius for spinning profile much like the MK Professional blades. You can see for yourself here. I find it easier to center my spins on the smaller and thus curvier spin radius.

I didn't have much adjusting because I was used to that profile. I will say, because I came from the Ultima blades and the slightly more pronounced top pick of the MK Pro, I had to adjust to the toe pick of the Gold Seal. Heck I somehow even rolled off it and messed by knee up pretty bad. I've spoken to another skater who had gone from JW P99s to JW GS and they said the same. But that maybe us being weird. But overall toe pick size aside I'm very happy with the blade and was definitely worth the investment. Though once those blades are up for replacement I might try out the P99s old school style instead of the revolution since I'm in JW GS Revolution at the moment. Had managed to buy them for 30% off in a black friday sale and I was like I cannot let that slide.

I hope this was helpful.