Musicality: Natural vs Learned, Simple vs Complex

[Tinymavy15]

I personally think Lambiel and Sasha are the most musical skaters of this current era in their respective fields. They both have an inate way of moving to the music, and understanding phrasing as well as the emotion behind the music. Florent is also very musical, but I actually find his style a bit "forced" and showy at times, take a look at his Amelie program from 2-3 years ago, where is skating was sometimes a bit frantic when the music was still delicate and light. It was artistically effective for me, but did not show a understanding of the music as Lambiel or Sasha would show. Dai comes up a close second to Lambiel in musicality. Johnny was also avery musical skater, and still is. Laura Lepisto is one of the most musical ladies currently skating, as is Akkiko Suzuki.

For me, neither Yu-na nor Mao are inherently musical. Yu-na is a great conveyer of choreography, Wilson gives her good programs and she knows how to sell them. Her ability to use facial expressions greatly helps here here, but that is more of an acting or performance skill than musicality. I think if left to her own divides she would could not improvise of chroegraph that well. Same goes for Michelle in many respects, considering her weak musicality as a youngster, but as she grew older her reputation, aura and confidence on the ice, as well as the excellent training she had with Ms. Lichol made her a musical and emotive skater.

 

[kwanatic]

Same goes for Michelle in many respects, considering her weak musicality as a youngster, but as she grew older her reputation, aura and confidence on the ice, as well as the excellent training she had with Ms. Lichol made her a musical and emotive skater.

I'd disagree with you here. Even prior to Michelle's emergence in 1996, she still understood the music and conveyed the music, though not as well as 1996 onward.

Just watch her 1995 worlds performances. She didn't appear to be as mature, but her delivery was wonderful.

Worlds SP

Worlds LP

 

[miki88]

I actually don't find Lepisto to be very musical, though she has a pleasant style. As for Akiko, I feel she is a natural performer but I often notice a bit of an awkwardness in her body movements.

 

[Olympia]

It's interesting that we disagree in particulars about exactly who's musical, but that we all value it. And except for a few outliers, the general consensus involves many of the same skaters: Michelle (Tinymavy's reaction being in the minority), YuNa and/or Mao (greater variability in evaluation of these two--I'd put both on the list, of course), Lambiel, Browning (not mentioned so much here because of vintage, but I think few would disagree with me), Weir, Buttle, Takahashi, Sasha, and add your faves here. I've said before that for me, a musical skater is someone who makes me value the music more and who in the best case brings me into the music. A musical skater can make me feel as if the music was just composed, and moreover that it was composed expressly for this skating program.

 

[burntBREAD]

I think skaters also benefit from having a musical background, like if they played an instrument or something like that. But of course, does their musical training make their musicality learned?

 

[cosmos]

For me, musicality in FS is how to visualize music in terms of skating, movement, flow and other elements. YuNa showed HUGE musicality in her masterpieces such as Danse macabre, Sheherazade, Piano Concerto, Tango de Roxanne, and others. YuNa expresses music by her body so well. Everything in her performance from the start to end was in phase with music including jumps. Even a small element wasn't off. She was truly special in this department.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Tinymavy, it's interesting you mention Wier, because in the discussion Buttercup and I had, she mentioned a couple programs for me to watch, and what startled me about Wier wasn't his musicality - I thought it was okay at best - but his grace. I don't think he's particularly great at expressing music at all.

Before an Asada vs Kim debate breaks out, I do hope people recognize that I don't actually view one category as inherently more worthy than the other. What we tend to view as natural musicality tends to be "good within a limited range" as opposed to learend musicality - I do think that cosmos post indicates Kim's range, which is quite strong. Hell, I classified one of my absolute faves (Chan) in the latter category. I also tend to think musicality requires expressiveness (though the opposite isn't true, imo).

 

[callalily]

Assuming one considers Maia Shibutani a top lady in ice dance - and two GP medals, a 4CC medal and a Worlds medal say she is - Tessa is not the youngest.

Yes, certainly Maia is younger. I was comparing Tessa's age to the ages of the other female dancers who have been her closest competitors over the last several seasons; she's the youngest of that group.

 

[cosmos]

Tinymavy, it's interesting you mention Wier, because in the discussion Buttercup and I had, she mentioned a couple programs for me to watch, and what startled me about Wier wasn't his musicality - I thought it was okay at best - but his grace. I don't think he's particularly great at expressing music at all.

Before an Asada vs Kim debate breaks out, I do hope people recognize that I don't actually view one category as inherently more worthy than the other. What we tend to view as natural musicality tends to be "good within a limited range" as opposed to learend musicality - I do think that cosmos post indicates Kim's range, which is quite strong. Hell, I classified one of my absolute faves (Chan) in the latter category. I also tend to think musicality requires expressiveness (though the opposite isn't true, imo).

I am not saying one is more worthy than the other either. I am saying that one of YuNa's naturally born talents is her musicality, which is also demonstrated by her singing and dancing. She is a terrific dancer. How can a person with excellent singing and dancing ability not naturally musical?

IMO, FS presentation=musicality+(Non-musical)expressiveness.

 

[Buttercup]

I personally think Lambiel and Sasha are the most musical skaters of this current era in their respective fields. They both have an inate way of moving to the music, and understanding phrasing as well as the emotion behind the music. Florent is also very musical, but I actually find his style a bit "forced" and showy at times, take a look at his Amelie program from 2-3 years ago, where is skating was sometimes a bit frantic when the music was still delicate and light. It was artistically effective for me, but did not show a understanding of the music as Lambiel or Sasha would show. Dai comes up a close second to Lambiel in musicality. Johnny was also avery musical skater, and still is. Laura Lepisto is one of the most musical ladies currently skating, as is Akkiko Suzuki.

That's interesting, because I'd actually flip Stephane and Florent in that evaluation. Stephane has a wonderful feel for music but at times it has seemed to me like he's overdoing it a bit - by choice, I suspect, not unknowingly. I adored Florent's Olympic season programs, which I believe were choreographed by Stanick Jeannette (now there is a very expressive and original skater, for sure!).

I also tend to think musicality requires expressiveness (though the opposite isn't true, imo).

I can think of some relatively introverted skaters who are nonetheless very musical. Though I suppose one can say it's less overt expressiveness.

A musical skater can make me feel as if the music was just composed, and moreover that it was composed expressly for this skating program.

I think a lot of the more iconic programs in skating are ones in which the skater(s) found a way to relate to and express the music in ways that we haven't seen and might not have expected (though I do realize some of the credit goes to the choreographer, in that case).

 

[Jaana]

I don´t see e.g. Kwan and Weir as musical skaters at all, more as elegant looking skaters. And of course a good choreography helps a lot. Lambiel and Takahashi both have a great feeling towards music.

 

[OS]

Fascinating thread... a couple of points I'd like to make to throw in the works.
To scrutinize whether someone is musical it is important to bear these in mind.

- Even the most naturally musically sensitives/gifted can take a while(thought take shorter than most) to make the transition to express them outwardly physically especially in sport as technically demanding as figure skating. It is like you know instinctively what it is suppose to be, but are unable to express them fully and can be frustrating.

- There are many musically gifted people who can't play music.

- There are many technically brilliant pianists/skaters, but not many of them are naturally musically gifted.

- Talented skaters can learn a routine from practice, watch themselves in the mirror, and just established routine through advice, trial and error as well. But the real test tomusicality is what they do when they are not doing their 'routine' such as how they perform in group performances, with other skaters, and perform to music outside their usual comfort zone.

- A test can be see how the skaters react if they make a mistake early in the program, were they able to tune it back instinctively to the music without missing a beat. And similarly how quickly they were able to tune it back according to the music.

- It seems to be common to think those who can do it to the beat is musical, but these are just done practice and has nothing to do with being musical.

- See how the skaters react when someone else's music during the practice/warm up time. A musically gifted skater would naturally be able to instinctively change the tempo of their 'routine' to suite what ever music is playing, their body would naturally tells them to do improvise their routine to fit the music regardless of what goes on in practice or how the beat suppose to be in their original music.

- Range is a wonderful test to see the musical versatility of the skater, it is not just about music vocabulary, but how their movement changes and adapt to what ever is playing. The masters would always take a familiar piece of music and tweak it to their purpose to suite the audience or whatever mood they are in. The mood of a musical sensitive artist will be reflected in the tiniest bit of subtle changes in their performance, it would not be routine.

- How quickly they can learn a new musical routine outside their comfort zone. Basically whenever they are challenged and how they adapt.

- How easily they perform without music (because they have it in their head) without the music playing in the background without missing a beat.

All count towards some indication of whether someone is musically gifted.

One last thing to bear in mind, musical sensitivity can erode with age without the right nurturing environment including some routine exercise and ways expressing them outside the routine/skating. May be some instruments playing, singing, other ways of expressing them etc.


PS. Joubert is not musical, Florent is (but not as musically gifted as people think, i need to see more range). Johnny is more lyrical than musical, he has great expressions.Patrick Chan is not musical, but getting there and improving all the time, I am excited for him. Dai is very musical, he is like jazz in the sense it doesn't have to go exactly to the routine, but it was deliberately so because he take ownership of every strokes and gesture he does and I love him for it. Lambiel is musical now, but not seen enough of his past routines to see how much he was back then. Among the new generation, Hanyu is the most musically sensitive I have seen and I'd certainly rank him in my top 3 most musical men's skater around.

 

[Olympia]

That's such a helpful evaluation, os168. Amazing to think there are such systematic ways to analyze musicality. i'm glad Daisuke makes the grade even with this demanding measuring method.

A thought occurs to me: maybe the people we should be evaluating for musicality are the choreographers.

 

[shine]

Stephane Lambiel is undeniably very musical now and is praised to the skies as innately musical, but in his earlier immature days, I really don't see it much (e.g. here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_Y3uOIh8). However, as Lambiel developed his technique and matured, we eventually see his musicality in full bloom (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1_0xd9A4k&hd=1).

Had to chime in where Lambiel's mentioned I agree that his artistry really blossomed in the last years of his compeittive skating (and is continuing to blossom into something quite transcendental, as shown in his latest exhibition numbers). But his musicality was apparent from the very start of his career despite being rather coltish in expression. The thing that made me a big fan of his WAS his musicality, which was seen in spades in the Chocolat LP. Not a whole lot of skater could skate to something like that, be so in tune with it, and kept my interest up the whole time. I also enjoyed immensely his 2002 programs (esp. the SP).

Another skater whom I am extremely fond of and whose departure I still deeply regret is Yukina Ota. To me, she was the epitome of musicality and elegance combined. And she used her arms like no one else.

But I do think musicality is quite subjective. For me, I would consider a skater musical if they express music and the emotions within it in a way that is attuned to how *I* respond to the music, be it the rhythem, melody, phrasing or general mood of the music. They need to make something in me "click". And the skaters I love usually can do that in spades. But I do believe that everybody responds to music differently. We focus on different aspects of msuic and appreciate music on different levels of depth. Some are more visual than others and might find moving well translate conveniently into musicality, some might not think so. Some might be more cerebral and appreciates music on a more intellectual level than emotional. And then there's also the part on expression. A skater can be less expressive than they are musical, which lessens the effect of musicality inevitably (Joannie Rochette comes to mind). This is all very subjective and IMO really comes down to how we ourselves respond to music.

 

[miki88]

That's such a helpful evaluation, os168. Amazing to think there are such systematic ways to analyze musicality. i'm glad Daisuke makes the grade even with this demanding measuring method.

A thought occurs to me: maybe the people we should be evaluating for musicality are the choreographers.

This is very true. It's similar to how actors need good material to make them shine. It's interesting when you look back on great artistic skaters like Michelle, Kurt, Lu Chen, you'll notice that they usually had a great choreographer that knew how to emphasize their strengths. A skater can possess a great deal of musical talent but it will only remain as untapped potential if there isn't a good choreographer to bring out that potential.

 

[Buttercup]

A thought occurs to me: maybe the people we should be evaluating for musicality are the choreographers.

This is very true. It's similar to how actors need good material to make them shine. It's interesting when you look back on great artistic skaters like Michelle, Kurt, Lu Chen, you'll notice that they usually had a great choreographer that knew how to emphasize their strengths. A skater can possess a great deal of musical talent but it will only remain as untapped potential if there isn't a good choreographer to bring out that potential.

I agree in principle, but I think one can argue about the part I bolded. Great choreography does give the skater a vehicle to showcase his or her talent - but a truly talented skater should be able to rise above mediocre choreo by adding their own personal touches and expressing the music beyond what the choreographer envisioned. Still, a better program does give them more to work with.

Without naming names, some very successful choreographers have been putting out cookie cutter programs in recent years, but the way the skaters perform these programs varies greatly.

 

[Tinymavy15]

That's such a helpful evaluation, os168. Amazing to think there are such systematic ways to analyze musicality. i'm glad Daisuke makes the grade even with this demanding measuring method.

A thought occurs to me: maybe the people we should be evaluating for musicality are the choreographers.

Indeed. I think that is where so many fans see Yu-na as "musical" when actually is just very skilled at performing choreography well. If she never misses a beat of music, and "everything is timed to the music" this means that her choreographer, i.e. David Wilson created the program that way, and she skates the choreography as planned. There are skaters who are given equally great programs but deviate from it or lose the proper timing due to their lack of confidence, skill in the elements being performed or disregard for the music or the choreographer's work.

A skater's true musicality would be tested in something they have to improvise or choreograph themselves. Personally I can't see yu-na being a great choreographer.

 

[Olympia]

I'm not sure I could agree completely, Tinymavy, though as shine says, musicality is very subjective, so my disagreement with you is not at all a criticism but just my personal take on things.

To me, a skater is like an instrumentalist. Of course the skater is interpreting someone else's choreographic creation. But that doesn't render the skater's musicality any less, just different. After all, you wouldn't question Artur Rubinstein's musicality because he "just" played Chopin and didn't compose himself at that level. Rubinstein, after all, made Chopin come alive. It's a symbiotic effort. Interpretive artistic gifts are tremendously important.

 

[Robeye]

Musicality is a deep and complex subject. In the Western tradition, the philosophy of music, and music theory, are highly sophisticated and systematic disciplines that have stood the test of three millenia, from their Hellenic origins. Thinking about the relationship of music to (and the concept of musicality in) figure skating has really only been around a few scant decades, and mostly in an ad hoc rather than methodical way, so I think it extremely useful to build on these foundations in examining what it means for skating.

The key general concepts of musicality that are particularly applicable to skating, it seems to me, are: rhythm, articulation, fluidity, expressiveness, interpretation, and projection. In my view, Yuna is among the most musical skaters ever (which, in addition to the translucence and electrifying athleticism of her skills, is why I'm such a huge fan), so I use her as illustration.

-Rhythm. What do we mean when we say that a poem is musical? Most prominently, we are referring to its meter (if rigorous) or its sense of beat (if the structure is not so rigid), as well as ancillary techniques to create pace, such as punctuation. Its rhythm, in a word. For activities that do not express themselves in the language of notes (which includes poetry, dance, and figure skating), the foundation of musicality is rhythm.

In skating, it has to do with the consonance of movement with the time of the notes, and that seems fairly basic. But in practice, it is difficult to do well, because it is not (or at least shouldn't be) just limited to whether major elements (e.g. a step sequence or a spiral, or even a jump) are timed to the music's beat. This would be like a pianist who continuously ignored the time signature, except at points of emphasis such as a change in register or a crescendo. Just as in a musical score, a truly rhythmic skater displays a "groove" throughout, in all her movements, not just sporadically but continuously, with her body, arms, head, even her fingers. When I consider Yuna's performances, whether classical (Danse, Meditation, Gershwin, Giselle) or pop (Bond, Fever, Bulletproof) or non-Western (certain sections of Homage to Korea), and whether they are among my favorites of her performances or not, the unerring rhythm and pace never fails to amaze me.

-Articulation. In skating, this has to do with the clarity, the transparency, of each individual movement, in consonance with "movement" in the music (and I find it evocative and revealing that music feels the need to use the metaphor of movement in describing key aspects of itself). I used to get grief all the time as a young kid (took violin and piano lessons) for the lack of precision, the vagueness, of my fingering. On the other end of the scale (so to speak) is someone like a Glenn Gould, or a Jascha Heifetz, who point the way to what articulation means as a performance quality that is in reference to music.

-Fluidity. This quality refers to the physical ease and seamlessness of transition from movement to movement, and from moment to moment, again, in consonance with the "movement" in the music. It is very often the case, I think, that articulation and fluidity are often at odds in skating. The former risks creating physical and mental tension resulting from its requirements for focus and precision, while the latter requires relaxation, and thus the ability to combine these two qualities is rare.

At 2011 Worlds, I understand that Irina Slutskaya commented that on Russian TV that, while she could not fully put into words why Yuna was so special and unique in her musicality and artistry, one aspect that she could put her finger on is that every movement had a 'finished' quality that was incomparable. I surmise that Irina is specifically referring to Yuna's articulation and fluidity of movement here. And in my view, Irina should have keener eyes for this than most, which is at once ironic and understandable, having suffered for perceived shortcomings in these areas vs. her great rivals in the course of her long career. (A thanks to elegance, a Russian member of Yuna's forum).

The above qualities, rhythm, articulation and fluidity, all in consonance with the characteristics of the accompanying music, is what constitutes, in my view, the "technical" aspects of musicality in skating, or musicality proper. This is because these qualities directly refer to qualities in the music itself (specifically the "movement" in the music), and otherwise have no value referent. (In other words, rhythmic in relation to what? Articulated and fluid in comparison to what?). In this, dance and figure skating are similar. There is a reason that dance is inevitably coupled with music, aside from the occasional experimental piece, and that is to partake of these musical qualities. One could, I suppose, argue that articulation and fluidity can be achieved without music, but absent the almost mathematically abstract sub-structure that music confers, they will gravitate toward pure naturalism. The result would amount to a difference in kind (and therefore could no longer be, ipso facto, "musical" qualities, and it is in their musical incarnations that we judge them).

-Expressiveness. Where expressiveness differs as a quality from those above (i.e. rhythm, articulation, fluidity) is that it is not solely and uniquely a characteristic of music. Literature of all types can be expressive, as can speeches, paintings, sculpture, dance, etc. This is because all of these activities have something in common: they are all intentional representations of an emotional state or idea (the definition of expressiveness), and are therefore on equal footing with each other in this respect. Figure skating movement, and dance, through physical movement, can be expressive without music, exactly because all of these disciplines refer to things outside of themselves. Skating, dance and music are in this sense all vessels, that can be filled with the thematic content that they try to represent.

Practically speaking, the affect of skating and dance without music may be less precise, simply because the languages of skating and dance are less precise. But in contrast to qualities of musicality proper (as defined above), this is a difference of degree, not kind. The overlap of expressiveness with musicality most often occurs when the skater (or dancer) chooses to use the thematic representation contained in the music as the sole and strict guide for emotional representation in the skate. But despite what the PCS definitions may imply, it does not have to be so, aesthetically speaking.

I was chatting online (on a different forum) some time ago about Michelle's Scheherazade program, and the first version I watched was the 2001 Goodwill Games performance. There seemed to me something missing, or odd, in its atmosphere. The awkward edit of the music didn't help. But then I saw the skate at 2002 US Nationals, and a proverbial lightbulb went off in my head:

"The edit of the music seemed to be the culprit, and I thought that its shortcomings were particularly evident in the Goodwill skate. But as I kept re-watching the Nationals skate, it suddenly occurred to me that there was a kind of interior logic here: as you said, Michelle was facing doubts and criticism, both external and internal, at this period in her career. Did she still have the goods? Was she washed up? It now seemed to me that first part of the program, with its dark, dangerous, and foreboding mood, was allusive of the public questions she was enduring and her own fears. In her Goodwill skate, I felt that she wasn't quite able to shake this mood and it clings to the skate to the the end. At the Nationals, however, I saw something different: the second "act" of the skate, where Scheherazade's character is introduced, showed me a reflective Michelle who was now accepting her predicament with peace and grace, acknowledging to herself that she cannot stop the wheel of time and age. The third and last act then becomes an almost heroic stance: she may not be what she once was, the jumps not as effortless and easy at this stage, but she will do what she loves, and do it with every fiber of her being. The older Beowulf on blades. She becomes joyful now (the hand gesture I mentioned at 3:52 acting as the spark), a spirit of fire, and from 4:00 the blazing crescendo of her final movements (which called to mind Yuna's finish in Danse Macabre) sweeping her to her Valhalla. The key to understanding this skate, it seems to me, is that Michelle wasn't telling Scheherazade's story, she was telling her own. For me, the incomprehensible became comprehensible. A program that began at the Goodwill Games with badly edited music became, to me, a triumph; Michelle remolded it to her own ends at the Nationals skate, making the program's weakness into a strength by force of will and internal purpose. The music may have been from Scheherazade, but the text could have been Sinatra's "My Way" . Her tears at the end of her program said it all."

Michelle's Scheherazade at Nationals was for me a kabbalistic lesson in miniature; there was a text within the text, an intensely private meaning that overwhelmed and subsumed the ostensible themes and emotional representations of the musical score. The music was subservient to the emotional intentions of the skater, not the other way round. I see a similar dynamic of private gnosis in certain of Yuna's performances, including her ATS Summer version of Meditation de Thais, and, in spite of flaws in execution, her Homage to Korea performance at Worlds.

-Which leads to Interpretation. Like expressiveness, this is not musicality strictly defined, but a placeholder for the choices one makes, in the emotional affect that is to be pursued (the expressive intent), in the first place, and in the details of the movements that will act as the carriers of this thematic representation, in the second. One can thrust the arms out powerfully, with a beaming laugh, to express joy. Or do it with less force, a reflective smile on ones face. Such nuances shade the viewer's perception, and in the best performances, results in a coherent emotional meaning. Interpretation is that which mediates between musicality and expressiveness, (very) metaphorically akin to the force-carrying particles of quantum theory. The interpretive nuances of Yuna's Meditation EX at ATSS, subtle, detailed, authentic and hypnotic, is an example of the importance of interpretive choices. As in viewing any artistic project, however, fullest appreciation of interpretive selection requires some knowledge of both the musical program and the performer's history.

-Projection. In my view, this is the intensity/energy level at which one captures the viewer's attention, and is powered by force of personality. However, it has no thematic content of itself. By analogy, both a car crash as well as a last-minute swerve away from danger can be so riveting that you can't take your eyes off them. At its best, projection serves as an accelerant, that can heighten the expressive effect. Although only fifth or sixth on my personal list of Yuna programs, her Bond SP is a pretty clear example of the sheer wattage that she can bring to bear.

Finally, as a general point, my own view is that, at a certain level of aesthetic achievement, both natural talents and many thousands of hours of effort are necessary. Thus, the question of whether musicality in skating is natural or learned is a distinction without a difference.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

What a post! Thanks Robeye, for your erudition. I'm not quite sure I agree with your comment that it is a distinction without a difference, but it's also more fun to disagree anyway.

And a nod to Buttercup, who was the one who suggested we bring this conversation out of the private into the public realm!

I can think of some relatively introverted skaters who are nonetheless very musical. Though I suppose one can say it's less overt expressiveness.

Agreed. Though I almost want to take back my initial comment because I think Carolina Kostner can be very musical but I'm not convinced she's that expressive.