Navka & Kostomorov angry at "random draw"

[Mathman]

In this article Navka and Kostomorov sound off about the perils of the random draw in the judging procedures of the NJS.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\01\21\story_21-1-2006_pg2_18

"Two-time world and European ice dancing champions Tatiana Navka and Roman Kostomarov were left fuming with the new system of voting after getting the wrong end of the random draw at the European figure skating championships here.

Following the 2002 Winter Olympics judging scandal a new anonymous computer-based accumulative points system has been implemented whereby votes of nine of 12 judges are chosen at random with the highest and lowest scores eliminated and seven votes taken into account. And the draw didn’t go in the favour of the two-time defending champions who trailed in third after the compulsory dance before regaining the lead in Thursday’s Original dance section. “When we saw the marks of the Compulsory Dance we saw that most of the judges put us first but for some reason the random draw wasn’t in our favour,” said Navka. “It was difficult to pull ourselves together after this."

Could it happen at the Olympics?

MM

 

[CDMM1991]

Interesting. I guess it could happen at the Olympics, but I'm not sure it could affect the standings to a great enough extent that if someone won both the original dance and the free dance (as Navka and Kostomarov did at Europeans) that they would lose the gold. If it did, I don't think that's unfair. That's how the system works; sometimes it will be in your favor, and sometimes it will work against you.

 

[Mathman]

That's how the system works; sometimes it will be in your favor, and sometimes it will work against you.

That's quite true. Still, I doubt that the average figure skating fan or once-every-four-years Olympic observer will be so understanding.

What if Irina wins the Olympic gold medal over Michelle just because the random draw selected the scores of the Russian judge instead of the American judge. Hoo boy!

MM

 

[attyfan]

That's quite true. Still, I doubt that the average figure skating fan or once-every-four-years Olympic observer will be so understanding.

What if Irina wins the Olympic gold medal over Michelle just because the random draw selected the scores of the Russian judge instead of the American judge. Hoo boy!

MM

With the Olys in Italy, will it matter a lot? (If something like that gave the gold to Irina instead of Sarah (or Michelle) SLC, there would have been a riot)

 

[soogar]

With the Olys in Italy, will it matter a lot? (If something like that gave the gold to Irina instead of Sarah (or Michelle) SLC, there would have been a riot)

It would probably matter if Irina won gold over Carolina...

 

[Mathman]

I was thinking more of the reaction by U.S television viewers. They already think the sport is phony. This would add fuel to the fire and hurt the long-term prospects of marketability for everyone.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Veeeeeeeery interesting. If I go to ISU can I see who he original 15 were? Particularly the nationalities.

Joe

 

[Zanzibar]

The random draw is a travesty. Hate it, hate it, hate it. A joke.

 

[Ptichka]

I recall many discussions about it 2 seasons ago. MathMan made a very good point then (repeatedly, until he was finally understood), that random draw is really irrelevant, since it's just like those judges weren't there. However, I think we all agreed that it does nothing for the confidence in the new system. If I recall, the random draw was responsible for putting Volchkova ahead of Cohen in a GP event in 2003 (someone correct me if I am wrong).

 

[childfreegirl]

'Dems de breaks!:indiff:

 

[hockeyfan228]

Did they actually analyze this properly, i.e., removing high-low scores from the mix? Or did they just look at the columns.

Also, how many combinations of the original judges would have given N/K the victory in the phase? Was it a majority (once high/low were trimmed)?

 

[Mathman]

Veeeeeeeery interesting. If I go to ISU can I see who he original 15 were? Particularly the nationalities.

Joe, there were only 12 judges altogether on the panel. Yes, you can see their names on the ISU site,

http://www.isufs.org/results/ec2006/SEG007OF.HTM

The nationalities are not given, but you can Google each name individually and find out.

Often you can figure out which three scores were eliminated in the random draw. What you can't do is match scores on the protocol sheets with the names of individual judges.

MM

 

[Linny]

Explain it again please

Does the same judge's score get eliminated for all the phases? Or is it a new random draw in each phase?
Linny

 

[euterpe]

Referee Robert J. HOREN   USA
Tech Controller Halina GORDON POLTORAK   POL
Tech Spec Marie BOWNESS   CAN
Asst Tech Spec Katerina MRAZOVA   CZE?
1 Hilary SELBY   GBR
2 Katalin ALPERN   ISR
3 Elizabeth RYAN   AUS
4 John GREENWOOD   CAN
5 Yury KLIUSHNIKOV   UKR
6 Rolf PIPOH   GER
7 Irina NECHKINA   AZE
8 Christine HURTH   FRA
9 Erica SONDEREGGER   SUI
10 Olga ZAKOVA   CZE
11 Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA   RUS
12 Laimute KRAUZIENE   LTU

Four of the judges were from former SSRs (RUS, UKR, AZE, LTU) Unfortunately, two of those (UKR, LTU) would likely grade G/G and D/V higher than N/K. ISR would have gone for C/S.

 

[Doggygirl]

Hmmm....could it be that N/K are missing the good old days of ice dancing under 6.0 where for the most part it seemed that the "favorites" were pre-determined, and there was little to no room to move skaters between placements in different phases, or HORRORS not award the faves the gold medal? I just suspect that in the old days, the Oly gold might have been more "in the bag" for N/K than it is today.

I know I'm being a skeptic....and I do try to have a bit more faith in the judging. But occassionally I suffer a relapse.

DG

 

[JonnyCoop]

I'm going to ask what may seem to be a rather stupid question here, but bear with me since many of the subtleties (and even the not-so-subtleties) of CoP are completely lost on me.

How do they know all those judges had them in 1st? They got rid of the whole placement thing, so are they basing that on the individual scores given them by each judge, or....????

 

[Mathman]

I recall many discussions about it 2 seasons ago. MathMan made a very good point then (repeatedly, until he was finally understood), that random draw is really irrelevant, since it's just like those judges weren't there. However, I think we all agreed that it does nothing for the confidence in the new system.

I am sorry now that I pushed so hard for the first point (the statistical features of the random draw). I now think that the second point (public confidence in the NJS) utterly trumps such mathematical arcana.

Figure skating already suffers -- whether rightly or wrongly -- from the public perception of being a sport where gold medals are won or lost or traded not on the ice but in the equivalent of the congressional cloak room.

Similarly, this is what I think is so unforunate about the Michelle bye situation. Even though the USFS Interntional Committee had only one reasonable choice under the circumstances, still, it ends up with a bad smell in the air.

In Michelle's case it couldn't be helped -- Michelle didn't ask to be injured -- but in the case of the random draw and secret judging, the ISU is stinking up the place needlessly.

If I recall, the random draw was responsible for putting Volchkova ahead of Cohen in a GP event in 2003 (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Yes, I think that's right. I have forgotten now how the analysis came out. Of the 242 possible ways in which the draw might have been made, IIRC Sasha won about 70% of the time and Viktoria won about 30% of the time.

In response to Hockeyfan's question, I doubt if N&K did anything more than glance down the list of numbers. I don't know this for sure, though.

"Dem's the breaks," as Childfreegirl says, LOL. But why would the sport of figure skating want to keep on giving itself these PR black eyes.

MM

 

[JonnyCoop]

Yeah, it does rather sound to me like a certain someone seems to be having some sort of sense of entitlement....... Then again, the judges have been in love with Navka for over 10 years now, so I guess one can't blame her for being a bit startled.

 

[anything_for_skating]

Personaly I think the new judging system is very good, and there are no chances for unjustice.

 

[Piel]

Personaly I think the new judging system is very good, and there are no chances for unjustice.

Can you please tell me what it is about the new judging system that makes it impossible to be unfair?