objectively speaking

[Freddy the Pig 2]

Re: Silly

Brava BronzeIsGolden and Aria!

Here's a little poem to show what I think of this thread.

Oh the anti-Kwan trolls, oh they sniffle and they whine,
And they live way down in the anti-Shelly mine,
And they gnash their teeth and they chew old bones,
And the Internet trembles at their anti-Shelly moans.

Freddy lays back in his La-Z Boy chair,
And he flips the remote with a debonair flare,
And he bids his troubles and his cares farewell
As he waits for the words, "Now, here's Michelle!"

Freddy

 

[Pookie]

Re: Silly

:lol: Another great poem, Freddy

 

[engrsktr]

Re: Silly

Aria....

yes michelle has landed way more triple/triple combos than anyone of the previous skaters I mentioned..... but that's only because she's been around for SO long! 1 triple/triple a year for 10 years will easily put her over the likes of debi and others.... that's faulty logic... but one a year doesn't show consistency.....

and I agree that clean skating is better than seeing skaters perform jumps they can't handle... my point is that michelle CAN HANDLE the technique required..... it would be absurd to think she could not....! I want to see secure skating but I also want to see people who have pushed themselves to LEARN the triple/triple consistently.... I'm not calling for skaters to go out there and attempt things they cannot do... but there are many skaters that CAN do that triple/triple successfully and consistently...... michelle could easily be one of those people.... and it would only help her... it's not like it would damage her programs or her image on the ice..!
why fight something that could make you BETTER!??

and she has had plenty of time since 98 (5 YEARS ago) to get over the toe problem and hip problem to be able to train the triple/triple.....

the jumping spurt will be VERY exciting as the difficulty of programs increases with consistent triple/triples that could replace individual elements in a program, thereby not taking away from the artistic impression at all!

by the way, michelle might not have been good at figures.... sure she has floating edges and grace, but so did janet lynn.... and she was NOT very good with them! Trixie shuba was fabuluos but wasn't the best freeskater,.... but she wasn't lacking in the fundamentals..... so figures don't necessarily make the best freeskaters but everyone who did figures has something in common - a sureness of edge and a control of the body.....

and of course there were far fewer injuries before - most of the time we are talking about fully grown adult skaters... figures made it possible to push back the age of the competitive skater to where by the time they needed to train the tough jumps their bodies could handle it.... now you have skaters going out trying things at an age where it is clearly inappropriate..... michelle is beyond and had been beyond that age for some time..... so it's not about the injury thing like so many would like to say.... most of the injuries you hear about are with skaters younger than the age of 17..... Tara.... cristina...naomi.... it is well within the realm of ladies figure skating to produce triple/triples without massive injuries... as far as the men are concerned.... the quad is a huge step forward as well as the quad /triple combo... where people get into trouble is when they either simply push the body too hard (which means the pure talent for the jump and the technique are lacking in some way), or they try to tack on too many jumps in a row or repeat these combos TOO many times a season..... if it is done the smart way, injuries could be reduced and tecnical difficulty could be augmented...

 

[Piel]

Re: Silly

<span style="color:blue;font-family:helvetica;font-size:medium;">Bravo Freddy!</span>

 

[engrsktr]

Re: Silly

Wow.. I didn't think I'd face so many personal attacks... like I said on the other thread I started.... I didn't mean to make this so personal for some of you fans.... I wasn't at all trying to "dash" her image.. I was simply trying to discuss things as a skating fan... not as a particular skater's fan or enemy. So sorry to get your feathers in a bunch (freddy)....
I just thought I'd be able to find someone here at the edge who wouldn't mind looking objectively at ALL The skaters.. not just michelle although that's where it went... (my original thread covers the last decade for goodness sake)....


But this is the last comment I will make on the subject (as some of you say "thank God")...

Here it is:

Number one... I REALLY DON'T have a favorite skater... I REALLY DON'T have a least favorite skater... contrary to popular opinion... I don't want to be known as "anti-michelle" or "pro-michelle" because I am neither.... but when people talk of her like they do, I like to see if ALL the praise is truly warranted. No one has talked about any other skater that way recently. I just believe in giving SUCH high praise to those that deserve it. To most of you kwan fans she does. But I do question whether it is simply because you ARE fans.... I just would like people to keep their minds open and not always believe the hype if it is TRULY not warranted to the DEGREE it is given.
There is no doubt that 5 world championships don't come easy - she has to be doing SOMETHING right. And I am NOT saying otherwise. But hearing the praise that she is getting and then watching the skating I feel the praise takes her legend a little too far. Don't take this too literally but simply because you win so many world championships doesn't mean you are the best there ever was. There can be other circumstances - timing is a big factor... I mean who would say trixie shuba was so spectacular but she was a world champion........I'm just trying to get past the "titles" and look at the skater. And again I am not saying Michelle doesn't have a lot on the ball.....
If we are talking about her technically I think there is quite a bit of room for improvement.... that's all I am saying. I am saying she could easily have trained the triple/triple earler.... and I question why not because it doesn't seem to me smart that she didn't... even if she CAN win without them.... that to me doesn't make a legendary skater.....
I'm not even saying she has to do a DIFFERENT triple/triple... ANY triple/triple would be fine really on a truly consistent basis.....
Even if you area diehard fan of michelle you MUST admit that technically she is lacking..... no she's not always lacking compared to who she competes against... but to her own frame of reference she is....
actually for all you kwan fans I am saying something GOOD about michelle... I am saying she has the potential to be technically GREAT.... not just with the things she can do now but what she is capable of..... and all of you seem to be saying no she doesn't need it, no she was always injured, why should she do those jumps.... that's almost like holding her back if you ask me..... I should hope that all kwan fans would REALLY WANT to see her do some more varied technical things..... no skating isn't all about jumps, but she can do them! she has the skills and the package is complete... why not add to your "greatness"...???
She certainly wouldn't be taking away from her current status...
not all observations are negative.... not all criticisms are negative..... it depends on how you look at them. so for all of you who really wanted to pound me..... well do what you will... I am trying to be objective and fair..... I don't think I've "bashed" michelle in any way... I think I've just questioned an aspect of her skating... if that's such a crime shame on me I guess... in any case..... if anyone out there who viewed it but didn't reply and took the time to think about it (whether you agree or not) then thank you... To those who have been so close-minded and took my comments personally I'm sorry that you feel that way.
thanks.

 

[eltamina]

Show us the gushing!!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but when people talk of her like they do, I like to see if ALL the praise is truly warranted. No one has talked about any other skater that way recently. I just believe in giving SUCH high praise to those that deserve it. [/quote]

Since we are posting at GS, show me where in Golden Skate have people been gushing excessively (in a serious way) about Michelle? Do we even have a congratulations MK for the 5th title thread here at GS? Where is the HIGH praise that you see here at GS?

<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;">Congrats Fumie, eltamina totally mesmerized by Fumies edges</span>

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Silly

engrsktr. - You really don't have to leave the forum. there is a corps of posters here who have different favorites but are much more interested in the entire scope of figure skating - not just praising or debasing a particular skater.

Some of your posts remind others of another poster who 'had no favorites' yet when the Olys was over, was unable to accept the fact of the winner, and actually paused in her ciiticism of MK.

I really think you enjoy skating. I think you are interested in good skating whether Ladies, Mens, Pairs or Dance. Maybe, I'm wrong. What is apparent to me is that you feel that after a certain amount of time in the sport one must move on. I presume that includes Viktoria and Irina who have been around soooo many years and both of which have garnered many medals.

For me and many others, we would like to keep Viktoria and Irina around for as long as they want to compete. MK, too.

Joe

 

[Icestar]

my thoughts

I guess this topics started by wondering how good Michelle is. She is the world Champion so she was the best alround skater that day.
As far as her technical ability compared to other skaters, I think there are other skaters that have better jumping skills than her. This is what the original post was getting at I think. Some skaters that have better technique than Michelle are Sash, Elena, Viktoria, to name a few. These skaters in my view, I've been in the sport for many years, have nicer individual jumps. Now this has nothing to do this consistency, nerves, stamina, or competition readiness which all play a role in landing jumps successfully during an actual performance.
I'll let you in on a little fact about skating. In practice skaters can land much more difficult things than anyone ever sees on tv. For the women to just start adding Triple/triples into their program is a very difficult thing, when wanting to maintain a clean program. I am sure Michelle does sal/loop, loop/loop, and lutz/toe in her practices. She doesn't use them in the program because she doesn't want to risk have any imperfection in her performs. Why do you think Sasha stopped trying quads in competition, she wants to win. At this stage the other competitors can't deliever the whole package the way Michelle can, so she doesn't do the triple/triple.
The best technical skater does not always win. Look at how long Elvis was doing clean programs, with the quad before anyone else, and when he finally won the world championship.
Michelle's strongest attributes, and what makes her a winner, is her focus and her ability to capture the audience. Her jumps are good and they are there for her in competition. Not the highest or most beautiful, but there for her.

 

[thvudragon]

Re: my thoughts

engrsktr, it's hard for me to believe you are trying to be objective when you are ignoring some of the comments posted here.

MK has had pain practicing the harder 3/3's! She had hip pain practicing 3/3loop combos. She's even been praised by Christine Brennan, of all people, for treating her body right. (To add to Brennan's hypocrisy, she praises her for taking care of her body, and criticizes her for not taking risks).

Just this past Junoir Worlds, Bebe Liang had pain in her right hip that bothered her throughout the competition. NNN has been reinjured repeatedly. When will skaters learn to say "That's enough for today"?

TV

 

[BronzeisGolden02]

Re: objectively speaking

Engrskatr,

I'll admit some people get very excited and sometimes defensive when posting about their favorite skater, yet I feel that hasn't been done to a horrible extent here. You have raised your points of view and people have cited those and either agreed or disagreed. (MOSTLY in a nice way, LOL!). So, certainly don't feel threatened, I believe you'll find the majority here are very objective. As for myself, am I pro-Kwan? Definitely. Do I think she created the skate blade and all magic on ice? No. But, I will dispute points that I don't feel jive with how I view things. This sport is fun because it brings together all kinds of view points and opinions and I urge you to stay. You seem quite knowledgable and have well thought out posts, so please don't mistake constructive arguments (okay, all haven't been constructive, but just ignore those!) for personal attacks. I may not agree with how you feel about some things but I can respect your opinions and what you bring to the forum.

 

[engrsktr]

Re: my thoughts

I must say thank you to brozneisgolden02... I simply don't want people to think I really am being anti-imchelle... believe it or not I do respect others opinions as well.... I've just noticed that some (not all) people seem to be so quick to defend their favorites (no matter who they may be) that they don't take the time to really read and understand fully what I'm saying....
Icestar: I was a skater myself and I know you can't just throw a triple triple in without some real planning.... but if you read everything I"ve said I point out that there have been years where she could have trained the triple triple combos... and I wasn't asking for the most difficult one she could find.... she could have kept the tripetoe/tripletoe.... that would have been enough for me.... and imperfection is risked each time a skater launches into the air to perform a jump.... triple or double (I think we'd all agree that the double axel of all things appears to be the trickiest sometimes for these ladies)..
and by the way I think sasha stopped trying the quads because Mr. Nicks would like to see an actual clean performance on her part for a little bit.... she chokes a little too often for comfort...
I will stick around here but I'm NEVER bringing up michelle again!:lol:

 

[rgirl181]

Re: my thoughts

Engrsktr,
I've read this and Apache Apache's threads over the past few days. I have not been a Michelle fan in the past and described myself as a "Kwan Neutral." There were things I always admired about her skating (her consistency, her edging, etc) but also things I criticized about her skating (stiffness in the knees and torso, arm usage, speed, etc). Other posters here can vouch for this, I'm sure However, I was thrilled with the improvements Michelle has made in her skating this season. In the past, I was only captured by two programs and the way Michelle did them: "Winter" and "Rush." However, seeing the way Michelle skated at Nats really impressed me. I was very happy and excited to see the way she extended everything about her movement; got down into her knees and into the ice more; skated out and beyond herself from deep in her center; and had a deeply genuine approach to her skating that, IMO, gave her performances a new and more profound authority. I could break it down more, but I've written it all in other posts in the "Worlds" folder. In the past when Michelle got slews of 6.0s for presentation at Nats, I'd be thinking "5.9s, but not 6.0s." This year, at Nats and Worlds, I would have given Michelle more 6.0s for presentation than she got.

Anyway, that's just where I'm coming from and here's my 2 cents for what it's worth: I think you make a number valid points in general terms, especially those concerning why 3/3s haven't become a regular part of the jumping repetoire of the top skaters, especially since skaters like Kristi and Nancy were doing them in the early '90s, even Debi Thomas in '88. I'm not trying to change your opinion, but here are the differences I see between Kristi et al. and Michelle. Debi, Kristi, and Nancy only trained a 3/3 combo or sequence for a couple of seasons then they turned pro. Michelle has been eligible for 10 years. To train 3/3s for 10 years is very different from training them for two or three. And as tvudragon said and as I read (sorry, don't have the link), Michelle tried training the 3t/3t this year and last, but it causes her to have hip pain. I think she made a very intelligent and the only wise decision, which is to stop training the 3t/3t. Sure, maybe another 3/3 combo or a 3/.5/3 sequence might not bother her hip, but I think Michelle had other priorities. I don't know her of course, but from what she's said in the press, I think her priorities were to improve her skating skills all around and discover her own style of skating and choreography, the latter of which is something I don't think she had before and IMO, getting it has improved her overall skating immensely. The tension is gone; she has improved speed and positions on her spins; her jumping is more secure and on some jumps, noticeably higher; her performance seems to come from a deeper, more authentic place than before; and as I said before, she's now skating from a strong center. To me, these are immensely impressive improvements, something that makes me admire Michelle for having the insight and self-confidence to say to herself, "People say I'm the best but I know I can be better." For me, Michelle making these improvements is as important as her getting a consistent 3/3.

Your assertion that if Michelle was truly as competitive as she says she is, she would have a 3/3 is an interesting one, but I see it differently. To me, being competitive is not about having "everything"; to me it's about strategy and intelligently analyzing your strengths and weaknesses. Training the 3t/3t caused pain in Michelle's hip. It was too late this season to try to develop another 3/3 combo, although one could argue that she could have tried for a 3/.5/3 sequence. However, I think Michelle's strategy was to focus on things that were probably prioritized and for her this year, having a 3/3 combo or sequence probably went down on the list of priorities when she started experiencing hip pain. She gambled that exceptionally strong choreography, presentation, skating skills (edging, flow, ice coverage, speed, etc.), and stronger jumps would be enough to win. It was a risk, but it paid off. Other skaters have the 3/3, but they have not been consistent, which is one of Michelle's greatest strengths. Sokolova didn't even make the GPF and she skated very poorly at the beginning of the season. Irina skated poorly all season and hasn't landed a 3/3 since I can't remember. Although your argument that if she were a true competitor she would have done a 3/3 for herself is an interesting one and of course you're entitled to it, IMO it's not that simple. I think there were other factors to be considered and that Michelle is indeed very competitive but in a creative way. She's not just going about it in terms of "Everybody is talking about 3/3s so I better have one," but rather, IMO, she analyzed the fact that it is mostly just talk and very little realization of 3/3s in competition and that for her, the 3t/3t is causing pain and would likely cause injury. Thus I think she played up her strengths to compensate for not doing a 3/3. This is why I think Michelle has become an even more intelligent competitor than she was before.

As for 3/3s in general, I watched the ladies Jr. Worlds Sunday morning and while it's true some of them landed 3/3s, one a quad, and one almost landed a 3Axel (it wasn't ratified because it was a half turn underrotated), these girls also fell a lot. It was not unusual to see a program with a great 3/3 and then falls or problems on other triples. And the presentation was nowhere near the same league as Michelle's, and as I said, in the past I have not been a big Michelle fan. True, there are skaters who can challenge Michelle when they skate their best: Sokolova, Irina, Cohen, Sarah, Fumie, Vika, Arakawa, Onda--and I love a lot of these skaters and would be happy to see them win with a great skate. But nobody pulled it off this year. Even though Sokolova won the silver, the rest of her season was so inconsistent and her presentation so weak that I've got to hold off until next season before I can assess where she really stands. Of the skaters who competed most this season, Sasha did the best in terms of medals, but her jump technique is weak and there is something in her or in the training that is not allowing her to skate a clean event and fulfill her potential. I could go down the line with all the top ladies like this. My point is, IMO seeing Michelle as lacking competitiveness because she does not have a 3/3 is like not seeing the forest for the trees. Since Nats, IMO, there is so much more in Michelle's skating on a consistent basis than any other lady has today. A year from now, this may not be true. Sokolova may improve her consistency and presentation; Fumie may put it all together; Sasha may find the key to fulfilling her potential; or some other skater may break out of the pack. After all, after five years out of Worlds, who would have expected Sokolova to show up and win a very strong silver?

Last thing: Injuries. You said that injuries from 3/3s are only a factor in young girls and that Michelle is at an age where 3/3s shouldn't be a problem. I disagree with this and don't think that the injury rates support your assertion. You cited the men doing quads and being fine, but that's not true. Last year Plush could not compete at Worlds because of a groin injury, which is one of the most common injuries for men doing the quad. Groin injuries (mostly tears of one or more of the hip adductor muscles) and other injuries have hindered Plush, Abt, Todd, Stojko, Urmanov, and many other male skaters doing the quad and groin injuries especially are very serious in terms of skating. For women in their 20s, we just don't know what the injury rate is for those who train and compete with 3/3s consistently because so far nobody has been able to do them for more than two or three years at a limited number of competitions, ie, Kristi, Nancy, Debi, Midori, and a couple of other ladies of that era, not even Irina. So I disagree that injuries are not an issue with 3/3s and female skaters if they are in their 20s. I think it depends on the indivdual's anatomy and physiology; how long they've been training 3/3s; and other factors. For me, I'd rather see Michelle skate until she's 30 and never try to land a 3/3 again than manage to do a 3/3 next year but wind up with a hip injury that limits her ability to skate. IMO, those are the possibilities she's faced with. Maybe another 3/3 besides the 3t/3t wouldn't injure her; maybe it would. Michelle has to work with these odds herself and be comfortable with them. Someday Michelle will probably be beaten again by somebody who has good enough presentation and spectacular 3/3s. But as we've seen with Onda and others this year, practicing all those jumps takes its toll. IMO, Michelle made the wisest choice by improving everything else in her skating and setting aside the 3/3. If she loses Nats and/or Worlds next season to someone with 3/3s, maybe she will try to work something in or maybe she will be content with skating at a level that she knows is at the absolute top limits of her abilities. We may never know.

Finally, I have to put in my standard plea for the hinged skate boot. My apologies to those who have seen my posts about this before. Apparently, the hinged skate boot makes multiple rotation jumps less stressful on the skaters' hips. If that boot were used, maybe then we would see Michelle doing 3/3s. But using 1940s boot technology, I think most ladies doing 3/3s today on a consistent basis will have a serious injury sooner or later, whether they are in their teens or 20s. JMO.

Anyway, Engrsktr, I thought you brought up a lot of interesting arguments. Any personal attacks probably (I'm just guessing) came out of some fans feeling so elated over Michelle's fifth World Championship that they probably weren't especially interested in hearing criticism of Michelle over not having a 3/3 when she just had such a tremendous and well-deserved triumph. In other words, I think it was probably a timing thing. [Edited to add: Although after reading the "Skating Careers" thread, I think you are pushing your agenda too hard.] I hope you stay and that you continue to state your opinions on Michelle [edited to add: but in a more way that is more conducive to constructive discussion.] If you feel someone unfairly attacks you, you can contact that person via PM to try to work things out or contact one of the moderators. It's true that there are a lot of Kwan fans here, but I think that's just because there are a lot of Kwan fans everywhere. Speaking from experience, generally speaking one can criticize Michelle's skating on GS without what I would call personal attacks against the poster. There have been some exceptions but I think most people who have been around GS for a while try to be respectful of minority opinions. Nobody called you an idiot or questioned your sanity, which is the kind of thing I've seen on other boards when a skater (any skater, not just Michelle) has been criticized. And for better or worse, a number of the posters at GS have tried to work out problems between different fan bases. We may not always be successful, but I think it's fair to say that most posters here do try to be reasonable when disagreeing with somebody in the minority. As I've seen already, several posters have noted their support for your right to express yourself. If a few said something inappropriate, again, I think it's mostly just the timing of it being just after Worlds. [Edit: I would probably word this differently had I read the "Skating Careers" thread before I posted this.]

That's it. Hope you stay and post about whatever you want [Edit: in a respectful way toward both skaters and posters]. For what it's worth, I think a discussion about what the role of 3/3s will be in ladies skating--all ladies, not just Michelle, would make for an interesting thread.
Rgirl

 

[Show 42]

Re: my thoughts

RGirl, well said. You expressed, I am sure, the opinions and thoughts of many of us who read and post here at GS....42