Papadakis/Cizeron Inside Skating interview

[olayolay]

Anyone read it? It's causing quite a stir on Twitter and other forums, especially for what they said in regards to the Latin rhythm for next year.

Link

Gabriella: I’m not a big fan of Latin for skating. I love Latin dances, I love watching Latin dances, on the floor. But on the ice… I think it’s such a different dynamic in the body that cannot really be translated on the ice, so it’s always gonna look kind of… cheap…

Guillaume: Cliché…

Gabriella: Cheap and cliché, Latin dances on the ice. Plus, there are no much possible different choices for themes and musics. Latin music always kind of sounds the same for me, with the same kind of instruments, and rhythms and… Not like this season – you could’ve had the 20ties, the 30ties, the 40ties, the 60ties, rock ’n’ roll, hip-hop, there was so many difference choices you could have! Latin music? Iiiih, not so many! [she makes a squeaking sound, and then starts laughing]. So it’s hard to be original on these things.

Guillaume: The thing about the free dance is that you get to really ice dance, and not dance on the ice. You know what I mean? And the short dance is more about dancing on the ice. All those ballroom positions don’t really fit to the ice, to the material that we have. I think it’s always gonna be a struggle, because we are ice dancers, we’re not ballroom dancers.

And for me the short dance kind of feels like Dancing with the stars. You pick skaters, and you try to make them ballroom dancers, but it’s never gonna… Like if you wanna see Latin dance, go watch a ballroom… ball, you know? [laughing] So I think it always kind of looks cheap.

 

[MelDee]

The reason it's "causing a stir" is because some people are taking their comments too far, being illogical and misinterpreting what P/C said. Nothing wrong with what P/C said, because they do have a point, Latin is not the most suitable rhythm for the ice. Of course that not everyone is going to agree with them, but let's not create unnecessary drama.

 

[Marius]

Anyone read it? It's causing quite a stir on Twitter and other forums, especially for what they said in regards to the Latin rhythm for next year.

Link

Gabriella: I’m not a big fan of Latin for skating. I love Latin dances, I love watching Latin dances, on the floor. But on the ice… I think it’s such a different dynamic in the body that cannot really be translated on the ice, so it’s always gonna look kind of… cheap…

Guillaume: Cliché…

Gabriella: Cheap and cliché, Latin dances on the ice. Plus, there are no much possible different choices for themes and musics. Latin music always kind of sounds the same for me, with the same kind of instruments, and rhythms and… Not like this season – you could’ve had the 20ties, the 30ties, the 40ties, the 60ties, rock ’n’ roll, hip-hop, there was so many difference choices you could have! Latin music? Iiiih, not so many! [she makes a squeaking sound, and then starts laughing]. So it’s hard to be original on these things.

Guillaume: The thing about the free dance is that you get to really ice dance, and not dance on the ice. You know what I mean? And the short dance is more about dancing on the ice. All those ballroom positions don’t really fit to the ice, to the material that we have. I think it’s always gonna be a struggle, because we are ice dancers, we’re not ballroom dancers.

And for me the short dance kind of feels like Dancing with the stars. You pick skaters, and you try to make them ballroom dancers, but it’s never gonna… Like if you wanna see Latin dance, go watch a ballroom… ball, you know? [laughing] So I think it always kind of looks cheap.

I just can't agree with this point. Ice Dance means that yes, you have to dance on the ice, and this leads to the SD, where the essence of the ballroom dance take form on the ice. The FD is more artistic, because the skaters can perform to music and themes they can express at their best, but the SD is the "real" technical half of Ice Dance.

 

[uhh]

The reason it's "causing a stir" is because some people are taking their comments too far, being illogical and misinterpreting what P/C said. Nothing wrong with what P/C said, because they do have a point, Latin is not the most suitable rhythm for the ice. Of course that not everyone is going to agree with them, but let's not create unnecessary drama.

It's not just about Latin on ice though, Gabriella says she finds Latin music boring and with no depth or variety, which is at best wildly ignorant, and at worst quite offensive to a whole mix of cultures.

P/C need to get over themselves. They've pushed aspects of the sport forward, but their interviews over the past couple of seasons have shown zero respect to those who came before them and no understanding of the origins of the sport that has given them so much success. The entire foundation of the sport was to translate ballroom dance to ice, and it has been done very successfully in many styles by a variety of teams. These kind of comments feel like more excuses after they showed again that they can't master the Short Dance requirements to the same level that many of their competitors have.

 

[maya1985]

It's not just about Latin on ice though, Gabriella says she finds Latin music boring and with no depth or variety, which is at best wildly ignorant, and at worst quite offensive to a whole mix of cultures.

P/C need to get over themselves. They've pushed aspects of the sport forward, but their interviews over the past couple of seasons have shown zero respect to those who came before them and no understanding of the origins of the sport that has given them so much success. The entire foundation of the sport was to translate ballroom dance to ice, and it has been done very successfully in many styles by a variety of teams. These kind of comments feel like more excuses after they showed again that they can't master the Short Dance requirements to the same level that man of their competitors have.

I think we do not read the same interviews ... (Speaking of respect, your comment is very respectful)

So, they can not have an opinion, they still have the right to have preferences! I do not understand the problem unless it's just to hurt them and say there's much better than them.
Long live hypocrisy, a dancer must be silent, not having an opinion

(This interview (in full) is very interesting, full of maturity and freshness)

 

[MelDee]

It's not just about Latin on ice though, Gabriella says she finds Latin music boring and with no depth or variety, which is at best wildly ignorant, and at worst quite offensive to a whole mix of cultures.

P/C need to get over themselves. They've pushed aspects of the sport forward, but their interviews over the past couple of seasons have shown zero respect to those who came before them and no understanding of the origins of the sport that has given them so much success. The entire foundation of the sport was to translate ballroom dance to ice, and it has been done very successfully in many styles by a variety of teams. These kind of comments feel like more excuses after they showed again that they can't master the Short Dance requirements to the same level that many of their competitors have.

First of all, where exactly did she say it's boring? You just assumed that's what she implies, but that might not be what she meant at all. Nowhere in her comment was she offensive to the Latin culture, she only expressed that it's not necessarily her taste. I think what she's saying is that even if the rhythms are different, the Latin music and therefore the SDs are likely to have a more samey feel to them than this past season's. Also, the language barrier might have been an issue here for them to express their opinions more eloquently, they surely wouldn't have worded it this way had the interview been in French.

Not sure which interviews you've read, but they always come across as very humble young people. I'm sure they do have respect for the history of the sport, its origins and the other athletes (past and present), the point is that the past is no more, the sport has to move forward, and bowing down to what came before them is not gonna do it. I do think they have the right attitude about it, they're outspoken and ambitious, but they also have the talent and skill to back it up.

Also, I suppose that if some of the other dance teams had the guts to share their honest opinions regarding the sport, we would all be VERY surprised, trust me.

 

[GF2445]

I have no desire to get into this discussion, just want to share thoughts of the value of having a rhythm restricted program and a free program.

Well Ice Dance did come from a tradition when skaters wanted to emulate ballroom to the ice. That is where the pattern dances (compulsory dances) comes from. We can't forget the roots of the sport, because without those pattern dances, Ice dance would not exist.

In saying that, and for balance, the thematic Original dances we use to have were really enjoyable and innovative. Something the ISU might want to consider in future years.

Short Dance and Free Dance have two very different briefs, and I think its good that the short program focuses on these dance styles. This is because a World champion team should be able to adapt and thrive in any situation and challenge. Albeit to the comments, but Gabby and Guillaume do show this ability (despite expressing their discomfort in the SD)- it just needs further cultivation.

My opinion about Latin on ice is like anything, it can sink or swim. Gotta make it swim.

 

[sarama]

I like them and that neoclassical meets contemporary style they do. I liked their FD this year even before the changes, when it was indeed edgier and more innovative.
What I don't like is the narrative that is being created around them. It's not true that they changed how fast you can rise in ice dance: Virtue/Moir were 6th at their first worlds and won the FD the following year, Elena and Nikita despite being a hot mess 90% of the time won a medal at their first Olympics in a very competitive field, The Shibs got bronze at their first Worlds. P/C continued a trend of junior success translating very quickly into a senior success, which doesn't happen often, but had happened before.
Also I find it hard to buy this all "they are such artists that the SD is limiting them...". First of all I don't think their style is SO groundbreaking, and if you are good (and they are) you should be able to excel in what is the basics of your discipline, and not consider it beneath you. You MIGHT be advancing the sport, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to disrespect everything that has come before you, nor that the rules should change just because of you.
Finally I kind of don't get the complaint about Latin: ice dance is translating dance to the ice. It shouldn't make a difference if the dance is ballet, hip-hop, contemporary or ballroom. Of course some styles can be more challenging to bring on the ice, but that's where the creativity and brilliance of a team should really come through.

I don't think they wanted to sound disrespectful, but that's often what comes through out of their interviews, and maybe it's not the best approach. Obviously they are free to say what they want, but maybe they should keep for themselves some opinions.

 

[NoNameFace]

I have no desire to get into this discussion, just want to share thoughts of the value of having a rhythm restricted program and a free program.

Well Ice Dance did come from a tradition when skaters wanted to emulate ballroom to the ice. That is where the pattern dances (compulsory dances) comes from. We can't forget the roots of the sport, because without those pattern dances, Ice dance would not exist.

In saying that, and for balance, the thematic Original dances we use to have were really enjoyable and innovative. Something the ISU might want to consider in future years.

Short Dance and Free Dance have two very different briefs, and I think its good that the short program focuses on these dance styles.

My opinion about Latin on ice is like anything, it can sink or swim. Gotta make it swim.

I agree, especially on bolded and considering Short Dance segment - you either make an imposed theme/rhythm work for you or not. Free Dance - like the name says - it's a free choice of the team, musically, choreographically, where they can express their 'philosophy' as Ice Dancers, incorporate their way of movement, sensibility the best I feel. And I always feel grateful for that chance to see teams inside of different aesthetics, music, choreography, how they interpret things, how elements are incorporated. Saying that, SD segment - although seeming more restricted and 'isolated' inside certain convention - became for me for last few seasons also a great opportunity to discover the originality, creativity and uniqueness of some teams (like Gilles/Poirier for example); or to realize the quality of certain teams, how strong/sharp their technicalities/skills are and how well they could incorporate it all inside various rhythms (Shibutanis are coming to my mind as a team who really excelled for me in SD segment since Paso Doble season).

Regarding this particular Latin SD for upcoming season, I share the thought about not maybe exactly always 'cheap' effect on ice regarding Latin style (movement), but a tendency to overact, 'overmove' and 'overinterpret' Latin music and convention; as a result, it can look cliché indeed, with artificial, forced feel in it. But saying that, I think it's a matter of a direction taken over certain rhythm, to make it comfortable for the team, matching their 'ID' yet still being inside of rules. The key is to make dance yours, not to bend yourself forcefully to the convention believing that it would make a successful dance. I think it's useful to find something of that SD that will make it 'yours': music, how it is mixed, costumes, styling, way of movement etc. and make it a focus point to build on the whole dance. If there will be to much of everything, it's an easy road to cliché. If a team is technically great, focus on it, master elements, steps to have Latin flavour, use styles of it suiting your best, use music to highlight your rhythmic sense, timing, sharpness, not to make you loud. If you're great performers - make a story out of dance, use costuming, styling, expression. Match Latin rhythms used to team's personality, way of movement, expression. Just be smart about it, because at the end of the day the team still has a choice how to make that SD work, albeit of rhythm(s) imposed, to make it neither of 'cheap' or 'cliche'. Sure - if a team will desperately want to recreate 'Latin on ice' not feeling it at all (especially in terms of figures, steps), it could turn badly for them. For me, the most important thing would be to have a balance: dance with Latin spirit, to the music you're definitely enjoying, incorporating rhythms you're comfortable in with choreography highlighting your best assets. And tasteful costumes (as shallow I am).

 

[Anyasnake]

Okay so Gabriella never sugarcoated things so why are you all surprised ? Besides why is that causing so much noise ? Replace Latin with Polka or a less-appreciated type of dance (I like polka but a lot of people don't) and you might get it.

And if you want someone else saying the similar stuff : Charlie White. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFSIlQgk2fI Around the 4:00 mark.

Take Bobrova/Soloviev EX for example they are clearly mocking the ballroom latin style

It's okay to like Latin dances on the floor but not finding it as likeable on the ice. It's like Hip-Hop.

People please stop taking people's words the way you want, because some skaters like Gabriella or Scott are gonna be hanged before the end of the season just because they express their opinions Thank God they have opinions instead of agreeing with everything.
Plus it's a waste of time. Let's all move ooooooooon. :agree:

EDIT : I think since it's 2017,= and latin hasn't been around for 5/6 years that there is going to be an evolution in the dances : V/M won't do marina' style, Shibs are finding their own, Chock/Bates will have another choreographer, P/C won't have a classic latin SD, and the list goes on. I'm ready for some major changes here.

 

[Ender]

They're not suitable to Latin music, and if they keep that mindset it will be difficult for them to "kill the SD" next season.

 

[MelDee]

Thank God they have opinions instead of agreeing with everything.
Plus it's a waste of time. Let's all move ooooooooon. :agree:

THIS!!!!

 

[olayolay]

Okay so Gabriella never sugarcoated things so why are you all surprised ? Besides why is that causing so much noise ? Replace Latin with Polka or a less-appreciated type of dance (I like polka but a lot of people don't) and you might get it.

And if you want someone else saying the similar stuff : Charlie White. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFSIlQgk2fI Around the 4:00 mark.

It's okay to like Latin dances on the floor but not finding it as likeable on the ice. It's like Hip-Hop.

People please stop taking people's words the way you want, because some skaters like Gabriella or Scott are gonna be hanged before the end of the season just because they express their opinions Thank God they have opinions instead of agreeing with everything.
Plus it's a waste of time. Let's all move ooooooooon. :agree:

Well, Davis/White's Latin SD was pretty deplorable too, so no surprise Charlie feels that way.

It feels like P/C are trying to make excuses for their SD ahead of time because they know it'll be a real weakness of theirs.

 

[Anyasnake]

Well, Davis/White's Latin SD was pretty deplorable too, so no surprise Charlie feels that way.

It feels like P/C are trying to make excuses for their SD ahead of time because they know it'll be a real weakness of theirs.

But by saying D/W' SD was deplorable you're basically agreeing with P/C, no offense of course. They acknowledge it's not their style and they prefer it on the floor, but that's it and that's okay.
And guys let's face it, the first people to criticize Latin for Ice Dance are us. WE, the people on the forum. Because we don't want 2006 all over again. Bad for the sport.

I personnally thought that we were going to have tango for the Olympics :/ I wish we had.

 

[olayolay]

But by saying D/W' SD was deplorable you're basically agreeing with P/C, no offense of course. They acknowledge it's not their style and they prefer it on the floor, but that's it and that's okay.
And guys let's face it, the first people to criticize Latin for Ice Dance are us. WE, the people on the forum. Because we don't want 2006 all over again. Bad for the sport.

I personnally thought that we were going to have tango for the Olympics :/ I wish we had.

How am I agreeing with P/C just because D/W happen to be bad at Latin too? Those aren't the only two teams in ice dance. Lots of other teams have done great Latin programs.

P/C didn't just acknowledge it wasn't their style - they said all other Latin programs done by other teams were 'cheap and cliche' and Latin music was boring and sounded the same. They basically said it was the ISU's fault for making them do a Latin program - not their own fault for not being able to do Latin.

 

[MelDee]

Here we go again, taking things out of context and reading far too much into it. We shouldn't jump into conclusions of how a team is going to deal with a rhythm even before seeing their program. We don't even know their music, how can we tell already they'll be bad at Latin? This is getting absurd, and feels more like an attack on a team because they dared to express their opinion.

 

[Anyasnake]

How am I agreeing with P/C just because D/W happen to be bad at Latin too? Those aren't the only two teams in ice dance. Lots of other teams have done great Latin programs.

P/C didn't just acknowledge it wasn't their style - they said all other Latin programs done by other teams were 'cheap and cliche' and Latin music was boring and sounded the same. They basically said it was the ISU's fault for making them do a Latin program - not their own fault for not being able to do Latin.

They never said they couldn't do Latin But that it didn't translated as good as other style on the ice. And they don't blame the ISU either, a requirement is a requirement.

But the interpretation can be done in so many ways, and I personnally just read what I see, and I honestly don't find anything that is offensive and I certainly don't see them blaming any teams for being cheap and cliche, just not liking the ballroom style on the ice (since I'm French, translating english into french in my head feels 100 times more normal so I guess someone else might take it personnally). And once again it's okay, because a lot of people (including me) agree. It's a matter of taste.

Can you please give me some Latin programs that you like ? I remember watching worlds 2012 and V/M and W/P really nailed their SD for me. (costumes excepted)
I would like to see more Latin in Latin. Not ballroom.

 

[Alchamei]

It's not just about Latin on ice though, Gabriella says she finds Latin music boring and with no depth or variety, which is at best wildly ignorant, and at worst quite offensive to a whole mix of cultures.

P/C need to get over themselves. They've pushed aspects of the sport forward, but their interviews over the past couple of seasons have shown zero respect to those who came before them and no understanding of the origins of the sport that has given them so much success. The entire foundation of the sport was to translate ballroom dance to ice, and it has been done very successfully in many styles by a variety of teams. These kind of comments feel like more excuses after they showed again that they can't master the Short Dance requirements to the same level that many of their competitors have.

Oh come on, there is nothing offensive about not liking a particular music style! Of course, it's possible that her dislike comes from ignorance of prejudice, but it's her own opinion! The problem with this argument is that you apply it to any other other genre or style but then it doesn't make sence. Are people who dislike modern pop disrespecting teenagers as a whole? Are those who don't like classical music disrespecting out predecesors?

About the snipet of the interview as a whole. I find it very interesting and P/C had some valid arguments. I may not agree with their opinion as a whole, but that doesn't mean it's automatically stupid. Tbh, I prefer when skaters don't sugarcoat everything and speak their own mind, even though it might be controversial and lots of fans, myself included, might disagree. It may be because I don't do that in real life, so I look over to those who are outspoken enough. I may not always agree with some controversial opinions, but it's probably better if people are able to say them and are honest, not lying.

 

[andromache]

Nice to see skaters actually expressing opinions.

"Cheap and cliche" seems pretty harsh, but I'm betting it's because English isn't their first language. Nuances of language and the connotation of words can often be overlooked.

Is paso doble Latin? P/C's paso doble was my favorite a few years ago. It was sexy as heck, even if it wasn't the best display of technical mastery, their body movements and expressions nailed it for me, the person who knows nothing about dance.

It's okay that SD isn't their best program. I appreciate how incredible their FDs always are (and never understand the critique that they all look the same - like, are we watching the same programs?)

 

[moriel]

As brazillian, I sign under "I think it’s such a different dynamic in the body that cannot really be translated on the ice, so it’s always gonna look kind of… cheap…"

I´ll speak about samba as thats what i know well, but it applies to most latin stuff (exclude things like tango and paso from those remarks)
1. Not all movements translate well to ice. Some stuff, while its authentic, looks just hilarious and silly when done on skates.
2. I´m not sure what is the issue, maybe too much ballet training. But FS ladies are way too stiff for samba. They don´t really "shake" it, and end up looking like the nerdiest girl in the school trying to dance at prom. Just google some actual samba dancers and then compare with FS ladies to see what i mean.
3. FS ladies do not have the body type, and they are just waaaaaaaaaaay too far from ideal. Like, it cannot be helped, you need a bit more... behind.