Partner switching in Ice dance/Pairs vs. longevity & success

[Mohacz]

Some weeks ago I was updating Sequin & Bilodeau's OP and when I saw the results of the 2014/15 JGP Final, I was surprised to notice that 4 years later neither of the six pairs that qualified to the Final and skated in Barcelona exists any more (http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1415/CAT007RS.HTM). The only ones who survived the transformation to seniors and skated until last season were Julianne and Charlie but even they didn't manage to overcome the injuries or problems with consistency. This season only Chelsea Liu and Brian Johnson are still active, although both with new partners (Liu with Ian Meyh and Johnson with Jessica Calalang with whom he forms part of the US Reserve Team).

It's quite sad, but it also demonstrates how difficult pairs are from longevity perspective. There are many splits and partner changes and it's quite common for a skater to have had at least two partners even in their junior career. I went through the biographies of some of the top pair skaters and ice dancers and, without digging more deeply, I discovered that in ice dance the duos that succeed most are the ones who have skated together all their lives or most of their competitive career (Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, the Shibutanis, Davis/White) while in pairs switching partners does not seem to affect the future success so much. Surprisingly, it quite often leads to better results or at least more interesting/funny/mature programs. What’s more, in pairs big results may come even after only one or two seasons together. The most obvious examples are Volosozhar/Trankov and Savchenko/Massot, but also Zabiiako/Enbert or Peng/Jin are more successful now than some years ago with their previous partners.

Switching partners in senior ice dance is much more risky and the first results may be seen after several seasons together (the most recent example would be Sinitsina/Katsalapov) or even never (the first couple that comes to my mind is Tobias/Tkachenko, but surely there may be some better example as these two weren’t that bad together). I wonder why it is so. Do you think it’s more difficult for ice dancers to gel than for pair skaters? Or Pair skating isn't in the end so difficult as everybody claims? Or maybe it’s a question of reputation which is more difficult to gain in ice dance than in pairs?

 

[Koatterce]

I've noticed it too. Though I find that splits early on are generally not a big deal, sometimes things just aren't working out or whatnot.

I think part of it may be that pairs is more focused on the big technical elements and chemistry takes a back seat to that. Whereas chemistry is almost essential for dance due to its nature. Hence why it's more common to see a pair with little chemistry than a dance couple with little chemistry.
If the two pair skaters' techniques match well, especially for sbs jumps, a new pair can see results fast - though there might be an adjustment period for other elements such as lifts that may require minor technique changes, often due to height difference. But they can still get tons of points from those big elements.
In dance, while it's still technically focused on the dance steps, the overall look of the program is important as well, and moreso than in pairs.
(and also judging can be a bit of a mess in dance especially in terms of reputation/ being in favour with the judges)

 

[DSQ]

As strange as it seems, considering that in Pairs the girls have to trust their partners so much in those throws and twists, I think in Dance that complete faith of knowing that when you move this way he will move that way is vital. I think the audience can tell if a team has that faith yet and it adds to the fluidity of the movement.

You can see it in ballroom dancing where the most experienced couples can dance with their torsos practically glued together and yet their feet know exactly where to go.

That kind of chemistry only comes with hundreds of hours of practice. I get really sad when a couple split because I think what could of been.

 

[hanca]

In ice dance it is a lot about reputation. For example, it is not unusual that 7-8 pairs out of top 10 has very similar base value, perhaps within a point from each other. So the placement is done by GOE and PCS and both are up to some extent subjective. That means that being around for a long time and building up reputation matters a lot.

In pairs, reputation is not as important. Sure, it does help with GOE and PCS, but if someone has the elements, (enough difficulty and decent quality of the elements), the technical mark will be high. If the pair is also consistent,the PCS will be gradually climbing up and within one season a pair can get easily from completely unknow to (let’s say) top 5 at worlds, and the following season they would already have the reputation and fight for the podium and possibly even the top spot, if they are good enough. In ice dance usually the PCS would not climb up so fast.

 

[Ice Dance]

I think it takes a very long time to get the instinctive perfect unison & togetherness that scores so well at the highest level of ice dance.

I suspect if you spend some time brainstorming all the pairs that did not survive after partner splits, you will find that more do not succeed than do. (Castelli & Tran, for example. Hocke & Blommart are not having too hot a season at the moment. Stolbova is where at the moment?).

 

[Lester]

I think it's because ice dance has no jumps and throws, which can result in big point differences.

 

[Lota]

This is a very interesting topic, one that I've been pondering for a while. Both pair and ice dance teams have been splitting up fairly often recently (maybe it just seems like that right now, there have always been splits, obviously). Splitting up is tougher on ice dancers, I think, because the discipline lives and breathes unity. Both partners have to share the same style, same sort of movement, they have to look very cohesive on the ice or the partnership won't work at all. The pairs couples, meanwhile, can get away with good pairs elements at least for a while, even if their styles do not match at the beginning. Obviously, in both disciplines top-tier teams have to have both great technique and unity, but the latter element has way greater importance in ice dance and is, alas, usually achieved over a long time.

There are some exceptions, however, like V/T. As soon as they came on the ice together it was like *click* ~magic~ Even if you don't like them as a team, you gotta admit that they gelled together really quickly and the team just immediately made sense. That's what everyone is looking for. That "yes, this is how it's supposed to be, this feels comfortable" partnership. Sadly, sometimes what seems like exactly THAT to us, viewers, does not work for the skaters themselves. Loved Seguin/Bilodeau together, thought they were perfect for each other, but it was not meant to be. Also loved Ilinykh/Katsalapov, though that team was much more volatile. When they would fail, it looked bad, but man were they a sight to behold when things were going well :luv17: (which is why their split after a OG bronze and almost podium at Worlds was such a huge shock).

Ultimately, whether it is fair on unfair, I think there is no ultimate right way to make a team work. Sometimes it takes a long time for the partners in either discipline to get to know one another and gel together, sometimes it works like magic right from the get-go, other times something seeming perfect to us turns out to be unacceptable to the skaters themselves and leads to a split. I don't think we'll ever really see less splits, the skaters are human and there will always be problems, either with regards to very different skating styles or personality clashes. I do at times wish that some teams would give themselves one more shot but, who knows, maybe they'd been giving themselves "one more shot" for months/years. Either way, I really admire teams that have stayed together for a long time, but also cannot deny that it can be exciting to see what magic two skaters can possibly create when newly put together :yes:

 

[Mdk0144]

Well.. maybe off the topic, but am i the only one who prefered the previous teams?
I love mukhortova&trankov than Volosozhar&trankov, Yu&Jin than Peng&Jin (i think it’s difficult to say that p&j is simply more succesful than y&j. They were only in their second season as a senior, but already had a 4cc medal so..), savchenko&szolkowy than savchenko&massot, illiynich&katsalapov than sinitsina&katsalapov.

 

[noskates]

I think there has to be chemistry in both disciplines and definitely trust. Like anything else in life, the more you do it the better you get at it. These skaters who can't seem to stay with the same partners for whatever reasons (Marissa Castelli is a perfect example) never quite seem to make the grade when they move on. It takes years to develop the kind of synchronicity required for both pairs and dance. If someone was going to throw me 15 feet up in the air I'd sure want to know those 2 hands were there when I made the descent. Time and experience are crucial but like someone upstream said, reputation also plays a huge role in ice dance and you don't get that overnight.

And then there are personality differences or different levels of motivation. When you spend hours on and off the ice with the same person there definitely has to be compatibility in all areas. I've always maintained that US pairs teams are at a disadvantage with the rest of the world because they shed partners seemingly at the drop of a hat. One can only hope that the Knierems will disprove that.

 

[Giselle]

Some weeks ago I was updating Sequin & Bilodeau's OP and when I saw the results of the 2014/15 JGP Final, I was surprised to notice that 4 years later neither of the six pairs that qualified to the Final and skated in Barcelona exists any more (http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1415/CAT007RS.HTM).

I think it's interesting that you took the results of the 2014/15 Junior Grand Prix final as your example since none of the ice dance teams that qualified for that Junior Grand Prix Final exist either .

Still active are only : Betina POPOVA, Sergey MOZGOV (who are skating internationally but are having moderate success this year...) and maybe Pavel DROZD (if his partnership with Ksenia Konkina last).

 

[Mohacz]

I think it's interesting that you took the results of the 2014/15 Junior Grand Prix final as your example since none of the ice dance teams that qualified for that Junior Grand Prix Final exist either [emoji23] .

Still active are only : Betina POPOVA, Sergey MOZGOV (who are skating internationally but are having moderate success this year...) and maybe Pavel DROZD (if his partnership with Ksenia Konkina last).

I took those results because I am responsible for keeping updated the Pairs fan fests and I came across them while making the final post-split update of Julianne and Charlie's thread. That's quite time-consuming and I look at other skater's threads only to see the latest posts and update some of "my" ice dance threads. But you also have a point with ice dance. Which makes me think that It would be interesting to know, for the statistics sake, the percentage of survivors in both disciplines.

 

[meem]

Sinitsina & Katsalapov made the podium at the GPF recently and Hubble/Donohue, who really haven't been together all that long, are US national champions and won the GPF. Plus, Katsalapov was off the ice last season due to a broken ankle (I believe).