Patrick Chan ups ante on long program

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It shouldn't bring Javi's PCS down, but it's like a footwork sequence -- one with sweeping edges and difficult turns is a lot harder to execute than one with a lot of toe movements that's flashy. I still think there's substance to Javier's skating, but I think he undermines in by picking pieces and choreography that doesn't lend itself to exhibit strong skating skills. On the other hand, he does tend to pick "character" pieces, which helps with interpretation. I'd just like to see him choose a FS where he is "forced" to show his blade ability, and show a bit more finesse and sophistication than we're used to seeing from him. And it doesn't have to be a classical piece, it could be a Sinatra (like Brezina) or something regal/powerful (like Hanyu's). This probably sounds snootish, but sometimes his skating is a bit blue collar, which is fine since that's his style, but I'd like to see him mix it up. On the same token, it would be nice to see Chan tackle a FS that is a little less classical too and shows a bit more personality... although I think their priorities are different... Chan is striving to be the artist and Fernandez is striving to be the entertainer/performer... and of course, there's room for both in figure skating.

 

[Lexiglass]

And as much as I can agree about Hanyu's PW, I can't count Mack the Knife in the "good for exhibiting edges and skating skills" because for now it's still a lot of miss for me. It's not against Chan. He's like a ballet dancer coming into a jazz club and he still has a hard time clicking with his music. So for now to me in MTK, his loooooooong edges would need more snap at the end to be up to the theme of his program. (but I think he chose a really hard music for himself with his SP. Because it is a very bouncy music. Would he have taken something more languid in the same style as PW, I think he would have struggled less).

Have you seen his Canadian national's SP? I think the step sequence is really lovely - fast and vibrant, but still showcases Patrick's beautiful edges and the gorgeous way that he uses his body to interpret music (I mean, the whole performance was lovely and there were lots of nice transitions and steps outside of the step sequence, but I particularly noted that there's a lot of "snap" in his SS).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Chan is striving to be the artist and Fernandez is striving to be the entertainer/performer

You're trying to create some kind of artificial tier here. They are just different styles. Chan isn't any more artistic and I don't see him striving to be any more artistic.

Fernandez shows more artistry in his SP this season for me than Chan does. He commits to his movements more fully and seems to care more about the character of the program.

 

[bumpybumpy]

Patrick Chan may have "upped" his technical components, but if Hanyu or Fernandez skate clean it's unlikely Chan will be world champion. While his skating skills and flow across the ice is probably still the best in the world, his programs just aren't as difficult, and it's super unlikely that he'll skate two clean programs. I love to see him glide across the ice but let's be real...he just doesn't have the technical goods to compete with the world's best.

 

[HanDomi]

Patrick Chan may have "upped" his technical components, but if Hanyu or Fernandez skate clean it's unlikely Chan will be world champion. While his skating skills and flow across the ice is probably still the best in the world, his programs just aren't as difficult, and it's super unlikely that he'll skate two clean programs. I love to see him glide across the ice but let's be real...he just doesn't have the technical goods to compete with the world's best.

I think everyone knows that. There is like 40 points gap between him and Hanyu right now , and maybe 30 at Chan's current best if judges gonna give him 300

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You're trying to create some kind of artificial tier here. They are just different styles. Chan isn't any more artistic and I don't see him striving to be any more artistic.

Fernandez shows more artistry in his SP this season for me than Chan does. He commits to his movements more fully and seems to care more about the character of the program.

How is that a "tier"? It's fine if you think Chan isn't any more artistic ... although it's particularly odd that you don't see Chan striving to be more artistic when a) he's stated that to be his intention, and b) his FS this year is incredibly artistic compared to many past programs of his, other than maybe Four Seasons -- it's certainly more "artistic" than G&D, which as I said is a program that's meant to entertain, not be some sort of artistic masterpiece... and as I've said that's legitimate for either skater -- but the FS theme and its execution by Javi do not lend itself to showcasing criteria that deserve top level PCS (there's very little extension, there's no attention to lines, not much finesse... but of course, the interpretation is there at least).

I agree that Fernandez has sold his SP better than Chan, but it also hasn't helped that Chan has bombed his SPs (except for Nationals) and so getting into the character hasn't exactly been easy when you make big mistakes.

 

[tureis]

How is that a "tier"? It's fine if you think Chan isn't any more artistic ... although it's particularly odd that you don't see Chan striving to be more artistic when a) he's stated that to be his intention, and b) his FS this year is incredibly artistic compared to many past programs of his, other than maybe Four Seasons -- it's certainly more "artistic" than G&D, which as I said is a program that's meant to entertain, not be some sort of artistic masterpiece... and as I've said that's legitimate for either skater -- but the FS theme and its execution by Javi do not lend itself to showcasing criteria that deserve top level PCS (there's very little extension, there's no attention to lines, not much finesse... but of course, the interpretation is there at least).

I agree that Fernandez has sold his SP better than Chan, but it also hasn't helped that Chan has bombed his SPs (except for Nationals) and so getting into the character hasn't exactly been easy when you make big mistakes.

How so? I think Javi's FS is a pretty good display of the art of musical theater. And besides, art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive - on the ice, on stage, on screen, wherever.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

How so? I think Javi's FS is a pretty good display of the art of musical theater. And besides, art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive - on the ice, on stage, on screen, wherever.

I just wouldn't consider Guys & Dolls to be a masterpiece program of his. And I'm not saying a program has to be classical either -- e.g. I'd consider Black Betty to be a masterpiece program of his... he rocked it out, but he still showed excellent blade work and control, in spite of a "wild" theme. On the other hand, his schmaltzy free programs though make him look like he's intermittently balance checking himself to go in line with the theme, and it can look a bit zany/wacky/campy for my taste... like he's covering up mistakes with whoops expressions -- passing off wobbles as interpretation. And for me, I don't get the art of musical theatre entirely -- sure in terms of performance/character of musical theatre, but not in terms of sophistication/lines/aesthetics. That being said, I don't think Chan could give that type of level of performance that Javier gives in terms of charm and entertainment value (it's part of the reason his SP kinda falls flat for me). And of course art and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive but it's hard to characterize a campier piece as timeless or extraordinary art (e.g. Avenue Q vs. Phantom of the Opera are both art and entertainment in their own ways, but it's hard to characterize the former as an artistic masterpiece in the conventional sense).

 

[MaxSwagg]

Frankly, Javi uses the same tricks and gimmicks in his Valley of the Dolls program as he did in his Chaplin. With his SP too, the choreography and interpretation is very Han Yan-esque...as in not authentic. Even Kurt said this. Hope he (and Han) doesn't go into acting when he retires...

 

[tureis]

I just wouldn't consider Guys & Dolls to be a masterpiece program of his. And I'm not saying a program has to be classical either -- e.g. I'd consider Black Betty to be a masterpiece program of his... he rocked it out, but he still showed excellent blade work and control, in spite of a "wild" theme. On the other hand, his schmaltzy free programs though make him look like he's intermittently balance checking himself to go in line with the theme, and it can look a bit zany/wacky/campy for my taste... like he's covering up mistakes with whoops expressions -- passing off wobbles as interpretation. And for me, I don't get the art of musical theatre entirely -- sure in terms of performance/character of musical theatre, but not in terms of sophistication/lines/aesthetics. That being said, I don't think Chan could give that type of level of performance that Javier gives in terms of charm and entertainment value (it's part of the reason his SP kinda falls flat for me). And of course art and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive but it's hard to characterize a campier piece as timeless or extraordinary art (e.g. Avenue Q vs. Phantom of the Opera are both art and entertainment in their own ways, but it's hard to characterize the former as an artistic masterpiece in the conventional sense).

Haha, going totally off topic here, but I find Phantom of the Opera far more campy than Avenue Q, and in a very wrong way, meaning it's unintentionally campy.

To each their own I guess, but the reason I love Javi's FS this year is exactly that it perfectly embodies this type of theater - a big showpiece in the vein of Spamalot or Book of Mormon that is of course completely over the top, goes for the fun, but has loads of irony and sophistication, and smartly builds the story and the characters. I think this is where Javi's Barber of Seville program failed - they wanted to get an overall feel of the opera buffa and it wasn't working on that level, especially that it did evoke his Chaplin program at times. Guys and Dolls? That's perfectly pure musical theater.