PJ's Top Ten Ice Dance Teams

[jcoates]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/opinion/2011/11/pjs-all-time-top-10-ice-dance.html

Let the dissection begin.

 

[CassAgain]

Not terrible, but Grishuk and Platov above Klimova and Ponomarenko and in third is a stretch, IMO.

 

[jcoates]

I can't really disagree with the members of the list except perhaps that some of the pre-Olympic greats were not included, particularly Schwomeyer and Sladky, Towler and Ford, and Courtney Jones & partners. However, I would have the teams she did list in a different order. I'd have K/P 2nd, G/P 3rd or 4th, D/W 8th, W/M 9th and the Duchesnay's 10th or replaced by one of the pre-Olympic greats. All other teams' placements are fine with me.

 

[pangtongfan]

Not bad. However I would have Klimova & Ponomarenko higher, over Gritschuk & Platov for sure. I would not have Wilson & McCall in the top 10. I would replace them with a team like Krylova & Ovsiannikov.

 

[dorispulaski]

I would have dropped Wilson & McCall and added Usova & Zhulin I also would have K&P over G&P. And I would have ditched B&B and put on Courtney Jones & partners. But it's a pretty good list. I tend to prefer putting retired teams on and letting existing teams wait to retire to be on this type of list, but I like V&M and D&W so much, I'm just glad to see them there.

 

[Olympia]

Here's where I'm at a disadvantage because I don't know any of the pre-Olympic skaters. On the other hand, many of us are on an equal footing (pun not intended) if we agree that the list should just include Olympians, because this is the only discipline for which the Olympic era began so recently--1976. It's certainly likelier that some of us would be direct witnesses to the early days of it, and for the rest of us, the video footage is a lot more available. (I actually got to see the whole span of it firsthand, because I came into fandom in 1973.)

I agree that T & D should top the list, and I'm cool with Pakhomova/Gorshkov in second place. Their gold medal, the first ice dance OGM, was pretty much a coronation. Like most of you I'd put Klimova/Ponomarenko next. I just adored them for every possible reason, including the emotional link they were able to convey. I loved them as amateurs and possibly even more as pros. (Their dance to the slow movement of Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony...immortal.)

I was never really fond of G/P, so I can't say much about their placement or their inclusion on the list. I know they're very good and that Platov is especially well thought of as a partner. So they probably belong, but not above Klimova and Ponomarenko.

Look, Kwong is Canadian. She gets at least one wild card choice, and I wouldn't begrudge her Wilson/McCall on this list. They were the first Canadians and only the second North Americans (after O'Connor/Millns) to get an Olympic medal, and by golly, they belong on a Top Ten list. But I do regret that Usova/Zhulin isn't on here. They had a unique fluidity and a "match" of styles and aesthetics. Zhulin was a particularly graceful and supportive partner, with a personality that balanced out Usova to exactly the right amount of intensity. They were a great physical match as well--closer in size than G/P, but he very masculine and she very feminine so they didn't look like a brother and sister skating together. I'd also give Zhulin points for being one of the great ice dance coaches and choreographers later on. So for me, they replace Grishchuk/Platov, two OGMs or no two OGMs.

I'm glad to see both Anissina/Piezerat and the Duchesnays on here. Both brought wonderful drama and artistic expansion to ice dancing, and if there was ever a skating discipline where that should count for something, this is the one.

And this (as well as the men's list ) is definitely the place to raise the maple leaf flag without being unduly partisan. Canada has contributed mightily to ice dancing, especially if we count the couple-in-exile, the Duchesnays. I vote yes for just about everything on the list except the lack of Usova/Zhulin.

Of course no contest for Virtue/Moir! I'm glad to see Davis/White on here too. They're only getting better.

 

[dorispulaski]

Okay, if you're going to keep W&M for PJ's Canadian sensibilities and Canadian audiences, then I'd drop B&B rather than G&P, mostly because G&P were better dancers, and they won 2 Olympics, which is difficult to do in dance particularly because dancers tend to be older when they medal, and ready to retire. B&B didn't originate the Russian style of ice dancing; P&G did, and they're already in 2nd place for it. In fact, if I were to include another Russian team eliminating W&M and B&B and G&P from the lineup, it would be Moiseeva and Minenkov, who IMO were far more innovative than B&B, and who inspired T&D.

 

[KKonas]

Okay, if you're going to keep W&M for PJ's Canadian sensibilities and Canadian audiences, then I'd drop B&B rather than G&P, mostly because G&P were better dancers, and they won 2 Olympics, which is difficult to do in dance particularly because dancers tend to be older when they medal, and ready to retire. B&B didn't originate the Russian style of ice dancing; P&G did, and they're already in 2nd place for it. In fact, if I were to include another Russian team eliminating W&M and B&B and G&P from the lineup, it would be Moiseeva and Minenkov, who IMO were far more innovative than B&B, and who inspired T&D.

ITA with this assessment for the most part. Although not to everyone's taste, Grishuk & Platov were very good dancers and definitely should be on this list. I may be a little biased here to keep them as high as Kwong does because Platov did let me wear his 1998 Olympic gold medal for a few minutes, which was very thrilling for me.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

What doris said. I'm actually surprised she chose B/B for her list. I think the biggest surprise is that she didn't choose Bourne/Kraatz, actually, regardless of their actual ability

 

[jcoates]

As with her other lists, PJ seems to have wavering criteria for inclusion. I get the impression from her post that she gave B/B the nod more for their accomplishments than their style. While they were often over the top, they did have an impact on the sport and it's direction. I definitely preferred other teams to them. Still, I am always surprised when I here their contemporaries comment on them. Judy Blumberg, whom you might expect to be irritated by their heavy drama considering they were her major competition to challenge T/D, was always very complimentary, especially of Natalia. Same for Tracy Wilson. Jayne Torvill appears to be quite friendly with her based on Dancing on Ice clips I've seen. So it makes me wonder if their apparent personal popularity plays a part in how some choose to remember them.

 

[Olympia]

As with her other lists, PJ seems to have wavering criteria for inclusion. I get the impression from her post that she gave B/B the nod more for their accomplishments than their style. While they were often over the top, they did have an impact on the sport and it's direction. I definitely preferred other teams to them. Still, I am always surprised when I here their contemporaries comment on them. Judy Blumberg, whom you might expect to be irritated by their heavy drama considering they were her major competition to challenge T/D, was always very complimentary, especially of Natalia. Same for Tracy Wilson. Jayne Torvill appears to be quite friendly with her based on Dancing on Ice clips I've seen. So it makes me wonder if their apparent personal popularity plays a part in how some choose to remember them.

With my lack of technical expertise, I often go on overall impressions or appreciation of artistry, and in those areas, B/B holds a special place. They were over the top indeed (though I hear from others that they backed it up with technical precision), but they did stretch the possibilities. Interestingly, Bestemianova is married to singles innovator Igor Bobrin, who played around with the possibilities of movement also. B and B also did some interesting things as pros, including the use of drama in a way that was theirs alone. Natalia was not a conventionally pretty lady, but she had an amazingly expressive face and body and could inhabit both music and a character. They once presented a riveting "Rasputin" dramatic program, in which he played the malevolent priest and she played the young hemophiliac crown prince. I still remember her expressiveness in that program: she so hauntingly conveyed the spirit of a young child (a boy at that) who was deathly ill and completely in the power of a diabolical man. Okay, so maybe comparing how these couples each did the Ravensburger waltz would be more sensible, but I don't always come to skating for sensible. The truth is that there are more than ten all-time greats, and there are a few ways to narrow down the final list.

It's nice to hear about Platov letting you try on his medal, Kkonas. I hear that his partner Pasha Grischchuk would sometimes travel with her medal when she became a solo professional skater, to give people an opportunity to see it. That says something nice about how they valued their fans. And the Olympics aren't a vote-in competition!

 

[Tonichelle]

What doris said. I'm actually surprised she chose B/B for her list. I think the biggest surprise is that she didn't choose Bourne/Kraatz, actually, regardless of their actual ability

ya beat me to it. I was actually very surprised to see them off the list (thought she'd have them there over Meryl and Charlie)

can't say I disagree with this list over all, might move a few around, but over all it's a decent list.

it'd be interesting to see two more lists (or four) with the top 10 partners and see how each would match up or who would be on there when their partner isnt

 

[skateluvr]

I can't argue with number 1. i can only say what I like because between T&D and Voir and Marlie, I did not wtch a lot of ice dance teams because it was too crazy/busy to me. That style has passed, and while I don't remember much about the greats of ice dance, I would put Voir and Marlie way up because they are greats now and don't need retirement. Why are Bourne and Kraatz not on this list? It is bad enough thire 1998 Riverdance was not given the gold medal. I hated hated hated Pasha Grishuk with any partner and those gold medals were corruption. Usova/ Zhulin were more my taste and much better skating, less diva-drama. I also think skating, figure skating/ice dance doesn't get much better than the Shibs. Brand new and young but divine. Sadly ice dance was about waiting-your-turn more than beautiful skating reaching the podium. And what of Belgosto? These top ten lists are silly as one needs Top Ten lists for each major market. USA, Canada, Europe/Russia and Asia. !00 years of skating and people look at 30 years maybe.

Oh, I just realized another tired mistake I made. I talked about Jane the 'cape' in the pick your wishful skate thread I started. I said Bolero... when I meant Paso Doble. I was remembering seeing a bullfight in 1984. Gotta go fix it. Anyway, I hated the russian european frenetic teams and would like to see a north american top ten from the golden oldies to the present stars. Where is Prettykeys? Fee free to fix the brain farts, but not my special trade marked abbreviations (Lyrica for example, lol!)

Maybe Dorispulaski should do that? Hint, nudge, Doris? Give us some youtubers if they exist going back. PJ has lost it for me on this list. But I was never a big ice dance fan til Vancouver, so whaduiknow????

 

[gmyers]

Good to see Grishuk and Platov. Sometimes I get the feeling that they're underrated because of judging controversises and that they won when he fell.

 

[Tonichelle]

you can't just look at choreography when making these lists, you have to look at skill and contribution to skating... whether or not I like a pair is beside the point, you cannot deny what a skater brings or brought...

I said on the ladies thread that my personal list wouldn't have MK on it, but I can't deny what she did for the sport especially in the US... *sigh*

 

[skateluvr]

Good to see Grishuk and Platov. Sometimes I get the feeling that they're underrated because of judging controversises and that they won when he fell.

2 gold medals, (one not deserved) is underrated? Ice dance corruption was at its height when G&P skated. Exactly my point, they even fell and still got the gold. The skater commentators were so careful about this competition. I remember exactly Scott's carefully worded question to Tracy Wilson, and her ever so careful PC answer. The ice dance judging more than any other discipline is what finally got the 6.0 thrown out and CoP begun. By 2002, the go along, get along commentators were finally ready to fight the bloc voting that gave every Russian team the ice dance and pairs medals for forever. G&P did not deserve that gold in Nagano. Tracy said they were sloppy and beatable. Ice dance judging was the insiders joke for years. Oksana Pasha Grishuk was not the best, but she thought she was. The outrageous behavior didn't matter. The fix was in. Verne Lundquist didn't really need to tell us the backstory on her, as that mattered only to the American audience who value marriage vows and the like.

The gold was predecided.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Right, but Tracy was also rooting for Bourne/Kraatz, who had a terrible OD and mediocre CD, but she never seemed to mention that.

 

[gmyers]

I don't think they were that sloppy like Tracy said! Not even a little. Not in the Free Dance. Obviously in on CD she made a mistake but not a big one. O/K weren't that great to me compared to G/P. All the arguments over the judging when people made jokes about not even really knowing what is judged obscures the greatness of what G/P did IMO.

 

[skateluvr]

Right, but Tracy was also rooting for Bourne/Kraatz, who had a terrible OD and mediocre CD, but she never seemed to mention that.

I will re-watch those programs, and I'll be the first I don't have the judging system knowledge but G/P's mistakes were overlooked. Always overrated t me anyway.

 

[pangtongfan]

Bourne & Kraatz did not deserve the gold medal in Nagano. I loved their Riverdance Program but their Grease Lightning OD was strictly an exhibition program that should have been used as such, and is a competitive program never should have been anywhere near even 4th in that portion, probably more about 8th as it had no difficulty at all compared to the other teams. As for a top 10 all time list while I respect their achievements and what they did for the sport in North America I dont see room for them on such a list personally, but to each their own. If B&K are on it Belbin & Agosto should be too, as their career was atleast as impressive, and they were the superior team of the two IMHO.

Gritschuk & Platov had only 2 somewhat controversial wins- the 94 Olympics and 97 Worlds. However in both cases none of their competitors were a clear winner either. Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean both had issues with their FD programs as well (legality or otherwise) in 94. At the 97 Worlds many felt Krylova & Ovsiannikov's stunning Masquerade Waltz should have won after some minor mistakes by G&P in the FD, but Krylova & Ovsiannikov tripped in their 1st CD and should have been placed 3rd behind Bourne & Kraatz which would have cost them any chance at the gold anyhow. At the 94 Worlds they fell but both Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean missed Worlds so there was nobody close to them anyway there. At the 95 and 96 Worlds they were the clear winners. The technically lacking and overdone Carmen of Krylova & Ovsiannikov was not good enough to have defeated them for the 98 Olympic Gold, where apart from a stumble in the 1st CD they skated very well otherwise. I would not have Gritschuk & Platov over Klimova & Ponomarenko in a million years but there is no way they can be excluded from a top 10 list rationally speaking.