Prop 8

[Mathman]

Ice dance first appeared at world championships in 1952. However, people have been dancing on ice a long time.

How interesting. I see that the first nine ice dancing world championships were won by British teams. Jean Westwood and Lawrence Denny won four times (the first four), the same number that Torville and Dean won in the 1980s. Courtny Jones (male) won four times with two different partners.

By the way, do you know who owns Skatabase and why it only goes up to 2002? This is a cool resource.

hey Ant and MM - What have women originated? Even high heels were first worn by French men? n'est pas?

Well, I do know that the earliest named writer in all of human history was a lady named Enheduanna, who lived in Sumeria in the 23rd century B.C. This is what she looked like (she is the one in the middle, the one wearing clothes.)

http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/Enheduanna.gif

Here is a sample of her work:

The true woman who possesses exceeding wisdom,
She consults a tablet of lapis lazuli,
She gives advice to all lands,
She measures off the heavens,
She places the measuring-cords on the earth.

(I happen to know this because of my interest in the history of geometry and astronomy. )

For that matter, I've got a bunch of patents, some in the areas of lasers, some in molybdenum processing, some in inspection.

A sincere and humble from yours truly. :yes:

 

[dorispulaski]

MM, The whole astronomy/geometry/numerology/number system/arithmetic interactions in the ancient Tigris / Euphrates area of the Middle East is completely fascinating! I read quite a lot about it when I was taking ancient history in school-there was a great little book about comparative counting systems and how they arose and propagated that I wish I had a copy of so I could read it again.

Or that I could remember the name of the author. It was something like Seidenberg, maybe.

(The bottom line is why there are 360 degrees in a circle)

 

[Mathman]

^ Abraham Seidenberg.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Seidenberg.html

Besides being a fine commutative ring theorist and algebraic geometer, he wrote extensively on many topics in the history of mathematics.

Seidenberg believed that counting originated only once in human history, at a particular place and time, and turned out to be such a good idea that it spread all over the world. He held similar views about the origin of the two major branches of mathematics, geometry/analysis (measuring) and algebra/number theory (counting).

Personally, I think he is all wet about this. No civilization, however backward and isolated, has ever been discovered that did not have a fully developed -- even eleborate -- system of counting. The famous anthropologist Margaret Mead once reported that the people of the jungles of Borneo had only three numbers: one, two and plenty. This turned out to be totally wrong, because they had a huge variety of "plenties," which they conveyed by body language and facial expressions rather than by having separate words.

Chimpanzees can count. Some birds can count.

Surely the origins of modern geometry and number theory are of prehistoric antiquity and have to do with moving from a hunting/gathering subsistence ecnomy to agriculture and animal husbandry.

A farmer must be able to measure his field (hence geometry, measuring earth), even as a herdsman must be able to number his herd. (Throw in Music and Astronomy, and you've got everything a civilization needs!)

 

[dorispulaski]

I'm shocked that I still remembered the name!

AFAIR, his position in the little book, called something like Diffusion of Counting Principles, was not quite as you describe. He was charting the diffusion of base 20 systems (French), base 12/60/360 systems (Sumerian/Babelonian) and base 10 systems. The thing that amused me the most was that the Sumerians had both a base 10 and a base 12 system for wheat measures and deliberately picked the base 12, AFAIR possibly because of a phobia/distaste for (my word, not his) about prime numbers. The whole numerology connection with their choice of base 12 was interesting too.

AFAIR, again, he was not arguing that counting only arose once, but that it arose several times, and people travelled, bringing their system with them. In any situation, one system will eventually prevail over another, either by convenience or conquest, but remnants of the older system will remain (like the remnants of base 20 in French).

Perhaps he came around to the single origin theory later?

Like so many speculations about ancient thought, several grains of salt are needed, but it's still an interesting set of speculations.

 

[Tonichelle]

RE: Skatebase - if I'm not mistaken that was run by the now defunct Skating Inc. which also ran Skate Radio, Skate Forum (my first "home"! I miss the gang) and a host of very prominent skater official sites (like Alexei Yagudin's, Angela Nikodinov's, and Nicole Bobek's... among others)

they tried to get a magazine off the ground and it tanked.

 

[Mathman]

The thing that amused me the most was that the Sumerians had both a base 10 and a base 12 system for wheat measures and deliberately picked the base 12, AFAIR possibly because of a phobia/distaste for (my word, not his) about prime numbers. The whole numerology connection with their choice of base 12 was interesting too.

I think the main attraction to the number 12 was that there are 12 months (lunar cycles) in a year. This made it natural to divide the heavens up into 12 sections, each ruled over by a particular Zodiacal constellation. Actually, this shows quite a significant advance in sophistication over the root of the base ten system. (If you count on your figures, after you get to ten you run out of numbers and have to take off your shoes -- if your society has invented shoes yet. )

The Sumerian Priestess/Astornomer Enheduanna that I mentioned above (she was the daughter of Sargon I of Akkadia) had the responsibility of keeping precise records of lunar phases, for purposes of calendar-making, astrology, and rituals centered on the moon goddess.

I think the reason people thought prime numbers were unlicky is that, since they are not divisible by anything, you are always the odd person out if your number is prime. Thirteen is especially unlucky -- so much so that even today hotels do not have a thirteenth floor because of "triskaidekaphobia."

Suppose you are the 13th person in a group and they divide into two teams. 6 on one side and 6 on the other, and you are left out.

Suppose they divide into three teams. Four on each of the three teams and you are left out.

Suppose they divide into 4 teams. Into 6 teams. The thriteen guy is always left out.

AFAIR, again, he was not arguing that counting only arose once, but that it arose several times, and people travelled, bringing their system with them. In any situation, one system will eventually prevail over another, either by convenience or conquest, but remnants of the older system will remain (like the remnants of base 20 in French).

Very interesting. The dynastic Egyptians had a base ten counting system, which is conjectured to have been brought to Egypt with waves of Syrian conquest (the gods Isis and Osiris were possibly Syrian rulers during this period). Some people believe that this replaced an earlier base five system of the original Nilotic people, the evidence being that the words for 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are pretty clearly Semitic, while the words for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 seem more closely allied with Hamitic (purely African) forms.

I love this stuff.

 

[Tonichelle]

my head hurts...

 

[dorispulaski]

Exactly!

The other thing going on was the 'perfection' on the number 60 which got associated with the chief Sumerican god Anu, so that is it accurate to say the Sumerians actually used based 60. It also got hooked to astrology because the number 60 was attached to the star that was associated with Anu. Lesser gods got lower numbers. 6*60 or 360 was also considered extra extra good.

(You have to forgive any errors I'm making, because I read this little book 30 years ago in an elective Middle Eastern history course..)

Anyway, it was all very

 

[antmanb]

I love the way this thread has gone even touching upon skating along the way!

I have understood/followed slightly less towards the end of this thread!

Ant

 

[Tonichelle]

evolution of conversation at its best!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I love the way this thread has gone even touching upon skating along the way!

I have understood/followed slightly less towards the end of this thread!

Ant

And nothing invented by women before 1903. Men were the first competitive skaters, and they devised a system of scoring with a base of 6.0. So there.