Qualification for Beijing 2022

[gsk8]

ISU Press Release - Apr 1, 2021

The entries for the Beijing 2022 were assigned according to the result of the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 and the designated Qualifying Event Nebelhorn Trophy which will take place on September 22-25, 2021 in Oberstdorf (GER). The full list of entries is available in ISU Communication 2388.

Up to twenty-four entries for Ladies and Men, 16 for Pairs and 19 for Ice Dance were determined according to the results from the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 following the rules for ISU Championships.

In order to have three spots, two entered Skaters need to achieve a maximum of 13 points. In order to get two entries, the maximum number of points is 28. If there is only one entry, the maximum number of points for two spots is 10 and the maximum number for three spots is 2.

Skaters who are in the Free Skating/Free Dance and are placed 16th and lower count with 16 points. Skaters who did not reach the Free Skating/Free Dance, get 18 points.

However, if an ISU Member has earned the necessary points for three spots or for two spots but did not have three or two Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance, the third/second entry is not automatically attributed nor is it reserved for the respective ISU Member. They have the possibly to secure that third/second spot at the Nebelhorn Trophy. All Skaters competing in the Olympic Qualification will have an equal opportunity to earn one of the remaining spots.

If the maximum number of spots available at the World Championships are not filled up by the ISU Members competing in the Free Skating/Free Dance in Stockholm, these remaining places will be added to the ones that are available at the additional Qualifying Event.

Detailed information and the Entries/quota places earned by ISU Members/NOCs according to Rule 400 A., paragraphs 2 and 3 are now available in ISU Communication 2388.

 

[Andrea82]

The determination of the Olympic spots assigned through 2020 World Championships have an effect on the draw of judges for the 2021 Olympics.

For each discipline, the draw of the 13 ISU members entitled of a judge is first done among ISU members which have obtained a spot at the World Championships

Ice Dance

As the 19 spots have been taken by 13 countries, the panel is already composed:

Russia, USA, Canada, Italy, Great Britain, Spain, Poland, China, Lithuania, France, Germany, Japan, Ukraine.

Pair

We have 16 spots from 10 countries:
Russia, China, Canada, USA, Italy, Japan, Austria, Germany, Hungary and Czech Republic will have the right to nominate a judge.
The remaining 3 judges will come from the countries that will qualify at Nebelhorn.
If China (or Austria#2) will be among the top 3 at Nebelhorn, there will be an open draw among all other Feds to assign the last spot on the panel.

Men

13 countries will be drawn from the following 18:
USA, Japan, Russia, Canada, France, South Korea, Italy, China, Georgia, Switzerland, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia, Czech Republic, Mexico, Ukraine, Sweden, Israel.

Ladies

13 countries will be drawn from: the following 18
Russia, USA, Belgium, Japan, Austria, South Korea, Azerbajan, Canada, Estonia, Sweden, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Germany, Georgia*, China, Czech Republic, Great Britain, Sweden

* Georgia currently has only 1 ISU judge. As per rules, a judge can't serve in more than 1 event at the Olympics. So Georgia couldn't be drawn for both Men and Ladies unless their current International judge doesn't apply and get promotiton later this year.
Oh well, it looks this rule is valid for ISU Championships but not for Olympics

 

[Ella339]

So in the ladies... Finland has 1 spot, Belgium has 1 with the possibility to earn another (do they even have two female skaters that could go?), and France... has 0 following Maé-Bérénice's injury?
The rules are the rules... but it's a bit frustrating

I also don't quite understand this:

All 24 possible spots are allocated through the WC2021.
As per Rule 400 A, paragraph 3 and 4, the following qualified ISU Members/NOCs may participate at the Qualifying Competition to earn one (1) additional entry/quota place for the OWG 2022:
-USA
-BEL
-AUT

Isn't it contradictory?

 

[Colonel Green]

I also don't quite understand this:

Isn't it contradictory?

They didn’t earn a spot, they earned the right to compete for an additional spot at Nebelhorn.

 

[Ella339]

They didn’t earn a spot, they earned the right to compete for an additional spot at Nebelhorn.

I'm not following... Donovan, who finished 20th in the Men, did earn his spot, right? So I imagine Loena (BEL) and Josefin (FIN) did as well?

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm not following... Donovan, who finished 20th in the Men, did earn his spot, right? So I imagine Loena (BEL) and Josefin (FIN) did as well?

They earned one spot apiece among the 24 up for grabs at Worlds.

Those that finished with the right ordinals or combination of ordinals also earned the right to compete for an additional spot among those awarded at Nebelhorn.

 

[el henry]

Donovan!


this DonoFan is a happy camper

 

[Ella339]

Hmm okay, I thought "All 24 possible spots are allocated" meant there would only be 24 skaters ot the Olympics.

A quick google told me it isn't so:

The number of entries for the figure skating events at the Olympic Games is limited by a quota set by the International Olympic Committee. There are 30 participants in each singles events (ladies and men), 20 pairs, and 24 ice dance duos.

Skaters must represent a member nation of the International Skating Union and reach the age of fifteen before July 1 of the previous year. They are also required to be citizens of the country they are representing.[7] Competitors have until just before the Olympics to receive citizenship. Since nationality rules are less strict for the ISU Championships, sometimes skaters who have competed at World or European championships are not eligible for the Olympics.

80% of the Olympic spots (24 men/ladies, 19 dance couples, 16 pairs) are allotted to countries according to the results of the previous year's World Figure Skating Championships. A country may have a maximum of three entries per discipline. Countries earn two or three entries by earning points through their skaters' placements. The points are equal to the sum of the placements of the country's skaters (top two if they have three). If a country only has one skater/couple, that skater/couple must place in the top ten to earn two entries and in the top two to earn three entries. If a country has two skaters/teams, the combined placement of those teams must be 13 or less to qualify 3 entries, and 28 or less to qualify two entries. The remaining places are awarded to one skater/couple each from countries that failed to get multiple places, in order of their skaters' placement in the world championships.

Following the World Championships, countries that have not qualified an entry in a particular discipline receive another opportunity in an international competition held in the autumn (usually the Nebelhorn Trophy) prior to the Olympic Games. Six spots are available in men's singles, six in ladies' singles, four in pairs, and five in ice dance. At some Olympics, the host country is automatically entitled to one entry in each discipline, e.g. in 1994,[8] 2010,[9] and 2018 if minimum scores are achieved.[10] If a country receives a spot by being the host, one fewer spot is available in the autumn qualifying competition.

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_Olympic_Games#Qualifying)

Sorry about the confusion!

 

[ice coverage]

Hmm okay, I thought "All 24 possible spots are allocated" meant there would only be 24 skaters ot the Olympics.

A quick google told me it isn't so:

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_Olympic_Games#Qualifying)

Sorry about the confusion!

There was no need for Googling or Wikipedia. The same total numbers are at the top of today's ISU Communication No. 2388, which you quoted in your original post.

"... The maximum number of entries/quota places for the Olympic Winter Games is thirty (30) for Ladies and Men, nineteen (19) for Pair Skating and twenty-three (23)for Ice Dance. There are two different ways to qualify for the 2022 Olympic Winter Games ...."​

(And of course the same information has been in previous ISU documents.)

---

Glad that the ISU officially has cleared things up re allocation of OWG spots earned at Worlds. A helpful paragraph:

"However, if an ISU Member has earned the necessary points for three spots or for two spots but did not have three or two Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance, the third/second entry is not automatically attributed nor is it reserved for the respective ISU Member. They have the possibly to secure that third/second spot at the Nebelhorn Trophy. All Skaters competing in the Olympic Qualification will have an equal opportunity to earn one of the remaining spots."​

Thank you to whoever from the ISU wrote this new language, which adds clarity.

I wish that the ISU had included this helpful language in Communication No. 2388 (which for the most part also does a good job of clarifying).

 

[DSQ]

The determination of the Olympic spots assigned through 2020 World Championships have an effect on the draw of judges for the 2021 Olympics.

For each discipline, the draw of the 13 ISU members entitled of a judge is first done among ISU members which have obtained a spot at the World Championships

Ice Dance

As the 19 spots have been taken by 13 countries, the panel is already composed:

Russia, USA, Canada, Italy, Great Britain, Spain, Poland, China, Lithuania, France, Germany, Japan, Ukraine.

Pair

We have 16 spots from 10 countries:
Russia, China, Canada, USA, Italy, Japan, Austria, Germany, Hungary and Czech Republic will have the right to nominate a judge.
The remaining 3 judges will come from the countries that will qualify at Nebelhorn.
If China (or Austria#2) will be among the top 3 at Nebelhorn, there will be an open draw among all other Feds to assign the last spot on the panel.

Men

13 countries will be drawn from the following 18:
USA, Japan, Russia, Canada, France, South Korea, Italy, China, Georgia*, Switzerland, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia, Czech Republic, Mexico, Ukraine, Sweden, Israel.

Ladies

13 countries will be drawn from: the following 18
Russia, USA, Belgium, Japan, Austria, South Korea, Azerbajan, Canada, Estonia, Sweden, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Germany, Georgia*, China, Czech Republic, Great Britain, Sweden

* Georgia currently has only 1 ISU judge. As per rules, a judge can't serve in more than 1 event at the Olympics. So Georgia couldn't be drawn for both Men and Ladies unless their current International judge doesn't apply and get promotiton later this year.

Thanks for this. It’s always interesting to see how judges are picked.

In the past it was my understanding that the front running competitors influenced who the judges would be. For example as Japan and the USA are the top countries in Men’s they would then definitely both have judges picked.

 

[ladyjane]

Nebelhorn Trophy before the Olympics is always exciting, and now it will be even more so. There'll also be skaters from big Feds trying to get one of those spots. In other years there could also be skaters from those Feds but they weren't part of the qualification process. I'm just hoping there won't be too big a difference in quality between the skaters trying to get a second or third spot for their country and the other skaters who are aiming for their first because they haven't managed to qualify through Worlds. I recall that in 2017 Alexander Johnson from the US was second, but the US had already qualified 3 spots, so though he got a silver medal that didn't get the US more spots as they already had reached their maximum. This time the US entry for the men will fight for a spot! For the fans of Paniot (now skating for the US): he got his qualification for the 2018 OG at Nebelhorn 2017.

I am very happy though that Donovan Carillo can be assured he will be able to fulfill his dream of skating at the Olympics. Of course, anything can happen, but he qualified for Mexico. He won't need to go to Nebelhorn, and I don't think there's another skater in his country who can surpass him. Last time he did go and didn't qualify. Hurrah for him! The same applies to Natasha McKay from the UK who wasn't successful at the last Nebelhorn Qualification round either, but now has already clinched the spot beforehand (unless of course another skater turns up but the spot for the UK is in place). Regrettably, Alexia Paganini (or another Swiss skater) will have to go through that process again. She succeeded in 2017, I hope she'll succeed again. Last time Australia only had a spot for men, and returned from Nebelhorn with additional spots for ladies and pairs. I hope they'll manage to pick up some spots again because for the moment they have none.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I may be totally misreading this. And am thrilled for Donovan... but

does this mean that only one of Korea, France, Russia USA & Canada can pick up the provisional spot? I.e. Russia or USA can have three spots but not both?

 

[ice coverage]

I may be totally misreading this. And am thrilled for Donovan... but

does this mean that only one of Korea, France, Russia USA & Canada can pick up the provisional spot? I.e. Russia or USA can have three spots but not both?

You are totally misreading today's documentation from the ISU.

First of all, there are *no such things* as "the provisional spot" or "a provisional spot" or "provisional spots."
No matter how many times this unhelpful non-official non-ISU wording is used elsewhere, there are no such things.

Per ISU, referring to Nebelhorn:

"All Skaters competing in the Olympic Qualification will have an equal opportunity to earn one of the remaining spots."​

In the men's discipline, 7 remaining OWG spots will be at stake at Nebelhorn.
Any of the following "will have an equal opportunity to earn one of the remaining spots":

- Any federation that so far has not earned any OWG men's spot​

- USA, FSR, CAN, KOR, FRA (because of their men's placements at 2021 Worlds)​

 

[ladyjane]

Whoa! Korea, France, Russia, USA and Canada can each pick up one spot. It's not that they have provisional spots, it's that they can contend for an additional spot - adding to the ones already earned at Worlds. They have to send skaters who have not skated the Final at Worlds (or - perhaps - weren't even present at Worlds which ultimately is the same thing). But so can skaters from countries who have not qualified through the World Championships. But they have to earn that spot through qualifying - get so high in the standings that they really earn that spot. There's 7 spots to be earned at Nebelhorn and each country taking part in the competition with skaters that are eligible can qualify spots for their country. Only one spot. But, in the case of Korea, France, Russia, USA and Canada, they have already secured spots through worlds. For them it will be an additional spot. For others, it will be the last chance to qualify one.

 

[StitchMonkey]

so put another way... as few as 2 new countries can earn spots and Nebelhorn if everyone one who.... shall we say as affected by the rule change (we need a term since provisional seems unpopular) does well?

 

[ladyjane]

But it all depends on whether those really do. Granted, I think Russia, Canada and the US will manage to get a high enough placement to get 'their' spot. But who says France and Korea will do so? For that matter, all of these can magnificently bomb (we saw Vincent 'bomb' at Worlds) and then other 'new countries' can get those spots. It's not unimaginable that one, two or even more of these don't get the spots. Obviously I hope nobody bombs, but I do think it is a somewhat fairer system that a country has to compete for their additional spot. And, indeed, otherwise countries as Mexico and Israel would have to go through this Nebelhorn process which they now do not. They have qualified already.

It's never going to be totally fair, but I quite like it that the gaining of additional spots isn't awarded automatically because skaters present at Worlds skate well. It might make it more difficult for new countries at Nebelhorn (as you say), on the other hand there are now less new countries who have to go through this process because they have already qualified.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am mostly trying to get a feel for the process.

I think the USA deserves a chance to get that third spot, but i also love love love seeing skaters from less known figure skating countries qualify.

I am thrilled that Donovan gets to go, but not sure how i feel about someone like Brendan Kerry (who i think was injured and could not go to worlds - i don't believe his non-attendance was by choice or any fault of his) now having to fight Korea, France, Russia USA & Canada to go to the Olympics. That is some steep competition, especially when he likely would have qualified at worlds.

I think in the end i wish the rules had been made much more clearly much earlier so that countries could have perhaps made a more informed decision.

​

 

[Colonel Green]

I think the USA deserves a chance to get that third spot, but i also love love love seeing skaters from less known figure skating countries qualify.

And a bunch did under these rules; they're in fact designed to benefit smaller federations whose skaters make the free at Worlds.

 

[el henry]

so put another way... as few as 2 new countries can earn spots and Nebelhorn if everyone one who.... shall we say as affected by the rule change (we need a term since provisional seems unpopular) does well?

Personally I like the term provisional spot. It is a helpful word to me, as no words are universally helpful or unhelpful. So I am going to stick with it while describing as best I can.

Some countries have a provisional second or third spot, such as the US or Canada. Based on their performance at Worlds, they are eligible for another skater at Worlds. They need to send a skater to Nebelhorn to actually secure that spot. That is why the spot is provisional. If they don't secure it, they don't get it.

Some countries have no spot at all. I don't consider that "provisional". They can send a skater to Nebelhorn to try to earn "a" spot. It's not provisional, because anyone can do it, whereas the chance to earn the provisional second or third spots were earned by a country's skaters at Worlds. So yes, Brendan and Julian and others need to compete with whoever the US, Canada, Russia send to get their provisional second or third spots. ETA: But Brendan, Julian et al will only be competing for the one spot.

And you better be thrilled for Donovan, because you were the person way back in 2017 who told me to pay attention to him at Liberty/Philly International. I am glad you did

 

[ice coverage]

... not sure how i feel about someone like Brendan Kerry (who i think was injured and could not go to worlds - i don't believe his non-attendance was by choice or any fault of his) now having to fight Korea, France, Russia USA & Canada to go to the Olympics. That is some steep competition, especially when he likely would have qualified at worlds.

I think in the end i wish the rules had been made much more clearly much earlier so that countries could have perhaps made a more informed decision.

With 20/20 hindsight, it is easy -- but not necessarily very meaningful -- to speculate about the possibility of an injured skater making a "more informed decision."
It would have been all but impossible (IMO) to make a "more informed decision" (in advance) about some of the unexpected results of 2021 Worlds, and how things therefore played out according to the post-2018 OWG rule.

I think it is fair to say that the Worlds results of Vincent Zhou and Boyang Jin were quite unexpected.

- (1) If Vincent had advanced to the FS, then USA could not earn an OWG men's spot via Nebelhorn.

- (2) If Vincent had placed in the top ten (displacing Cha), then USA and KOR could not earn an OWG men's spot via Nebelhorn.

- (3a) If both Vincent and Boyang had placed in the top ten (displacing both Cha and Aymoz), then USA, KOR, and FRA could not earn an OWG men's spot via Nebelhorn.

At Nebelhorn, Brendan Kerry's competition for an OWG spot would have included a man from FSR, a man from CAN, and men from federations that did not earn any OWG men's spot at Worlds.
(In this hypothetical scenario, CHN would have qualified for two OWG spots, meaning that six OWG men's spots would be at stake at Nebelhorn.)​

- (3b) If either Vincent or Boyang had placed in the top eight (pushing Semenenko down to ninth) and the other (Boyang or Vincent) had placed tenth, then USA, FSR, KOR, and FRA could not earn an OWG men's spot via Nebelhorn.

With six OWG men's spots at stake at Nebelhorn, Brendan Kerry's competition for an OWG spot then would have included a man from CAN and men from federations that did not earn any OWG men's spot at Worlds.​

In any case, I wish Brendan Kerry well.

---

Personally I like the term provisional spot. It is a helpful word to me, as no words are universally helpful or unhelpful. So I am going to stick with it while describing as best I can. ...

Agree to disagree re "provisional."

For me, the notion of "provisional" is unhelpful because I believe it exacerbated the uncertainty/confusion (thankfully now resolved) over whether the not-yet-earned possible third spot for USA men (for example) "used up" one of the 24 quota spots that could be earned on the basis of Worlds results (long before Nebelhorn takes place).
The notion of "provisional" exacerbated uncertainty/confusion that left some skaters (and their fans) in limbo (until today) as to whether the exact allocation of the 24 spots would be good news or bad news for them. Unhelpful, if you ask me.
(As of today, we finally know for sure that the not-yet-earned possible third spot for USA men does not "use up" one of those 24 quota spots.)
I don't see what is so difficult about saying (for example) that USA has a chance to earn a third men's spot via Nebelhorn. IMO, no need for an open-to-misinterpretation word like "provisional."
After the ISU published its official tally today, even a smart GS member like StitchMonkey was wondering whether federations with so-called "provisional" spots (again, not ISU's own language) have a different bar to jump over at Nebelhorn (different from federations that have not yet earned any OWG spot). The reality is that all federations trying to earn one of the seven men's spots available via Nebelhorn must jump over the same bar: attaining one of the top seven placements among all such federations.

(Side note: Even today, I find Jackie Wong's representation of the ISU's official tally to be less than "helpful."
I will repeat that overall I have great respect for Jackie, but I still disagree with his handling of this topic.)