Sasha discouraged by judges not giving her major title due to jump errors?
- Thread starter temperboy28
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Sasha was "firey and captivating"? Um, nope, not here. She was tentative, and then pissed off with herself. Nothing I would find firey or captivating. And why do Dick and Peggy never bring up the problems with Sasha below the ankle? Because they are nationalistic morons. They never bring up her flutz either, and she is the most egregious and consistant transgressor of said "jump" (although Mao is close).
Sasha was handed a couple of gifts based on shakey performances. That just shows that the judges WANTED to give her the titles, if she could just keep off her butt. Sasha did herself in, sorry, not the judges. Period.
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
My boyfriend is a big Sasha fanboy. I think she is actually a quite propped up skater, and has never been ripped off of something she earned. I believe not winning more big titles is since she never does clean long programs. I remember when we watched the Olympics together we were arguing over Sasha's scores in both the short and long, I thought she was propped up in both, only a bit in the short, by alot in the long, and he thought she was put too low in both, especialy the short.
Since Michelle won the 1998 post-Olympics Worlds, a Worlds where both the gold and bronze medalists from the Olympics Lipinski and Chen were missing in action, and at at time Kwan-Lipinski were considered head and shoulders above the other contenders, and where the next 2 favorites present Butyrskaya and Slutskaya each had a major fall in both the short and long programs, no women has won the Worlds or Olympics with an long program not totally clean. At the 1999 Worlds Butyrskaya won with a clean long program, and a clean short. At the 2000 Worlds Kwan also did so, with a triple-triple in the long as well. At the 2001 Worlds Kwan did so again, again with a triple-triple in the long. At the 2002 Olympics Hughes short was shaky but without substantial error and her long was clean with 2 triple-triples. At the 2002 Worlds Slutskaya won with a clean short and clean long. At the 2003 Worlds Kwan did the same. At the 2004 Worlds Arakawa won with a clean short with a triple-triple, and clean long with a triple-triple double and second triple-triple. At the 2005 Worlds Slutskaya had a flawed and held up short, but a spectacular long with a triple lutz-triple loop to open. At the 2006 Olympics Arakawa's long may be considered not clean since she doubled a jump, but it was by far the cleanest of the night. At the 2006 Worlds Meissner won with a clean short, and an excellent and clean long with 2 triple-triples. Sasha was at the 2002 Olympics, 2002 Worlds, 2003 Worlds, 2004 Worlds, 2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 Worlds and did no clean long programs at any event, and no women since the 1998 Worlds won gold without a clean long program.
At U.S Nationals 2002 Cohen was not as much a threat to Kwan as later since her edges and speed were not good enough yet, but as it was she missed a jump late anyway in the long. Kwan won with a clean short and long. At the 2003 Nationals Kwan took 1st with a clean short and long, Hughes had a shaky but clean short and a clean long to take 2nd. Cohen had a mistake in the short, and a fall and a couple other shaky jumps in the long to take 2nd in the short, and 3rd in the long. At the 2004 Nationals Cohen won the short pretty easily then missed her last 2 jumps in the long and Kwan stole the show with a spectacular performance. At the 2005 Nationals I believe Sasha's combination jump in the short was not clean, and in the long she had atleast 2 mistakes, Kwan had a clean short, and only 1 mistake in the long. At the 2006 Nationals Sasha won with a semi-clean skate, closer to that then any of the last 3 years where she lost to Kwan.
Since Michelle won the 1998 post-Olympics Worlds, a Worlds where both the gold and bronze medalists from the Olympics Lipinski and Chen were missing in action, and at at time Kwan-Lipinski were considered head and shoulders above the other contenders, and where the next 2 favorites present Butyrskaya and Slutskaya each had a major fall in both the short and long programs, no women has won the Worlds or Olympics with an long program not totally clean. At the 1999 Worlds Butyrskaya won with a clean long program, and a clean short. At the 2000 Worlds Kwan also did so, with a triple-triple in the long as well. At the 2001 Worlds Kwan did so again, again with a triple-triple in the long. At the 2002 Olympics Hughes short was shaky but without substantial error and her long was clean with 2 triple-triples. At the 2002 Worlds Slutskaya won with a clean short and clean long. At the 2003 Worlds Kwan did the same. At the 2004 Worlds Arakawa won with a clean short with a triple-triple, and clean long with a triple-triple double and second triple-triple. At the 2005 Worlds Slutskaya had a flawed and held up short, but a spectacular long with a triple lutz-triple loop to open. At the 2006 Olympics Arakawa's long may be considered not clean since she doubled a jump, but it was by far the cleanest of the night. At the 2006 Worlds Meissner won with a clean short, and an excellent and clean long with 2 triple-triples. Sasha was at the 2002 Olympics, 2002 Worlds, 2003 Worlds, 2004 Worlds, 2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 Worlds and did no clean long programs at any event, and no women since the 1998 Worlds won gold without a clean long program.
At U.S Nationals 2002 Cohen was not as much a threat to Kwan as later since her edges and speed were not good enough yet, but as it was she missed a jump late anyway in the long. Kwan won with a clean short and long. At the 2003 Nationals Kwan took 1st with a clean short and long, Hughes had a shaky but clean short and a clean long to take 2nd. Cohen had a mistake in the short, and a fall and a couple other shaky jumps in the long to take 2nd in the short, and 3rd in the long. At the 2004 Nationals Cohen won the short pretty easily then missed her last 2 jumps in the long and Kwan stole the show with a spectacular performance. At the 2005 Nationals I believe Sasha's combination jump in the short was not clean, and in the long she had atleast 2 mistakes, Kwan had a clean short, and only 1 mistake in the long. At the 2006 Nationals Sasha won with a semi-clean skate, closer to that then any of the last 3 years where she lost to Kwan.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
I'm dumbfounded that the two of you get along at all. I promise I'll have BOTH histories in front of me when I re-watch Sasha's competitions.
(I've actually never watched them AS competitions, just individual skates. Now I see why they sell tapes of the events....) :chorus:
(I've actually never watched them AS competitions, just individual skates. Now I see why they sell tapes of the events....) :chorus:
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2006
Well we dont take our disagreements with each other as seriously as we do on here. Alone we joke about when we disagree we make jokes about it alot, and still enjoy watching it and arguing about scores and skaters. Online we both have an in-your-face style and we confront people who disagree with us very strongly and go after them. I have not been on a skating forum nearly as long as he has, and I dont post as much though. I still have the same type of agressive style when people disagree with me as he does I think reading his posts though.
When we watch skating together it is all fun though, even when we disagree quite a bit on some things. We also agree on alot of skaters, competitions, and performances though, it is not entirely disagreeing, it a pretty even split I would say.
When we watch skating together it is all fun though, even when we disagree quite a bit on some things. We also agree on alot of skaters, competitions, and performances though, it is not entirely disagreeing, it a pretty even split I would say.
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- Mar 14, 2006
Well, partners influence each other so who knows? Maybe in 10 years he'll be the Sashafan and you'll be insisting that Irina, Michelle, and Shizuka were far better. 
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Ahem...there is the small matter that her Lutzes were severely flutzed. So in the short under 6.0 that warranted a 0.1-0.3 deduction. Given the severity of the edge change on Sasha's Lutz i would say it would warrant at least a 0.2 or even the full 0.3 deduction. So i think 3rd was just right for her.
As to your assertion that she had all her triples clean...she still had two flutzed Lutzes meaning, depending on your view that she didn't land a clean Lutz (the hardest triple (of which Kwan landed two) or she plane can't even do a Lutz.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
And adding to me previous post (having continued reading Temperboy's post) that Of the whole bunch at SLC Olympics that you discussed Sasha was the slowest skater with least refined edge technque. Slutskaya skated much faster than Cohen and both Kwan and Hughes were faster than Cohen too.
While her SP at the SLC Olympics was beautiful, her LP was skate, skate jump...skate, skate jump. There was nothign in there choregoraphically of any interest. 2002 Sasha was still wobbly edged Sasha who hadn't worked much on the edge control of her spirals, just the positions. The only place she had her competitors pipped was probably spins but in everything else the others were (at that time) skating better. Better stronger, purer jump technique. Better edge quality on basic skating sprials and footwork. As empty as you might think Kwan's and Slutskaya's programs were they weren't as empty as Sasha's.
Ant
In your opinion is the important part you missed out there. In mine, Arakawa by Torino had better spirals that Cohen - her edge quality and speed (not to mention the fiendishly difficult unsupported Y spiral even with the slight error in the SP). Both Arakawa and Slutskaya jump technique is better than Cohens - even though the landed the same jumps the quality of them was not the same. Cohen's jumps are the smaller of the three, Cohen flutzes badly, arakawa 'lips quite badly. Arakawa has it all over both Cohen and Slutskaya in terms on flow and pseed on the landing of the jumps....conclusion? They wre all pretty evenly matched in the SP i think they were rightly placed very close to each other int eh SP.
My personal preference is for Arakawa's style, i think she has beauitful posture, strong edges with gorgesou speed and flow over the ice. NIcely pointed toes and flexibilty to match Sasha's but the main difference is that its all done while skating strongly. I think Sasha still lags behind Arakawa in terms of basic skating...plus she fell twice. I think she was lucky to cling onto silver and would not have been surprised if she had only won the Bronze...she gerlsf looked surprised to win the silver.
Ant
And we all know skating is just about the jumps?
Ant
Come on are you serious or are you just baiting?? The part i made bold answers your question. Consistency is the key...if you fall you will not win unless other people also fall. You do remeber this is a sport don't you not a beauty pageant?
Ant
That suggests to me that the judges aren't marking the individual PCS correctly...why are pluschenko's choreography and interpration amrsk the same as his skating skills? Because they're as good? No because the judges haven't quite managed to give appropraite marks yet and so keep them all in line.
Ant
While her SP at the SLC Olympics was beautiful, her LP was skate, skate jump...skate, skate jump. There was nothign in there choregoraphically of any interest. 2002 Sasha was still wobbly edged Sasha who hadn't worked much on the edge control of her spirals, just the positions. The only place she had her competitors pipped was probably spins but in everything else the others were (at that time) skating better. Better stronger, purer jump technique. Better edge quality on basic skating sprials and footwork. As empty as you might think Kwan's and Slutskaya's programs were they weren't as empty as Sasha's.
Ant
In your opinion is the important part you missed out there. In mine, Arakawa by Torino had better spirals that Cohen - her edge quality and speed (not to mention the fiendishly difficult unsupported Y spiral even with the slight error in the SP). Both Arakawa and Slutskaya jump technique is better than Cohens - even though the landed the same jumps the quality of them was not the same. Cohen's jumps are the smaller of the three, Cohen flutzes badly, arakawa 'lips quite badly. Arakawa has it all over both Cohen and Slutskaya in terms on flow and pseed on the landing of the jumps....conclusion? They wre all pretty evenly matched in the SP i think they were rightly placed very close to each other int eh SP.
My personal preference is for Arakawa's style, i think she has beauitful posture, strong edges with gorgesou speed and flow over the ice. NIcely pointed toes and flexibilty to match Sasha's but the main difference is that its all done while skating strongly. I think Sasha still lags behind Arakawa in terms of basic skating...plus she fell twice. I think she was lucky to cling onto silver and would not have been surprised if she had only won the Bronze...she gerlsf looked surprised to win the silver.
Ant
And we all know skating is just about the jumps?
Ant
Come on are you serious or are you just baiting?? The part i made bold answers your question. Consistency is the key...if you fall you will not win unless other people also fall. You do remeber this is a sport don't you not a beauty pageant?
Ant
That suggests to me that the judges aren't marking the individual PCS correctly...why are pluschenko's choreography and interpration amrsk the same as his skating skills? Because they're as good? No because the judges haven't quite managed to give appropraite marks yet and so keep them all in line.
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
Becasue they bang the Sasha drum....i've seen footage of Peggy and Dick calling a Cohen triple Lutz "perfection" on a replay where the change in edge onto a strong inside edge is so obvious yet they didn't pint out the mistake.
Ant
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Some scattered thoughts:
Cohen hasn't skated clean when it counted. I think the international judges just lurve her and would love to put her on top but she needs to cooperate and stay upright through two separate programs.
Cohen is really the textbook example of a skater that could have benefitted from figures (even if she wouldn't be another Poetzsch or Schuba just learning to do them to the level needed to pass some tests would have helped her immensely I think).
I recently read that one of the most important things figures do/did for skaters is teach them how to control an edge from the ankle down and not by upper body position. MITF don't seem to do that for too many skaters whose idea of holding an edge is to force their upper bodies into a particular position and can't hold it once the upper body is in a different position (the flutz problem especially, and lips to a lesser extent).
Button and Fleming for all their accomplishments have a dated pre-internet view of skating commentary and fans. They dumb things down too much. Or maybe they're just getting old and thought Cohen was marketable enough to push, push, push despite her glaring flaws in basic technique.
Cohen hasn't skated clean when it counted. I think the international judges just lurve her and would love to put her on top but she needs to cooperate and stay upright through two separate programs.
Cohen is really the textbook example of a skater that could have benefitted from figures (even if she wouldn't be another Poetzsch or Schuba just learning to do them to the level needed to pass some tests would have helped her immensely I think).
I recently read that one of the most important things figures do/did for skaters is teach them how to control an edge from the ankle down and not by upper body position. MITF don't seem to do that for too many skaters whose idea of holding an edge is to force their upper bodies into a particular position and can't hold it once the upper body is in a different position (the flutz problem especially, and lips to a lesser extent).
Button and Fleming for all their accomplishments have a dated pre-internet view of skating commentary and fans. They dumb things down too much. Or maybe they're just getting old and thought Cohen was marketable enough to push, push, push despite her glaring flaws in basic technique.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The 2002 Olys for the Ladies was ripe for cheating,imo. I believe Sasha was expected to continue with the 'little girls should win' attitude prevalent at the time (Baiul, Lipinsky, Cohen). However, the Russians knew their Irina was ready to be the first 'genuine' Russian gold medalist. Kwan was totally confusing that Olys with no coach, a last minute choreographer and war horse music., and with Dad in the K&C.
The battle was clearly between Irina and Sasha. Irina had the lackluster performance together with a few flubs, and Sasha, despite the fall, looked to me, like she got stage fright. A cool Sarah Hughes, despite a dreadful SP, skated her best ever,and you know what the results were.
The scores were obvious by nationalities with no one suspecting that Sarah, who skated first and received scores with plenty of space for the others to top.
But they didn't.
There is no reason for me to think differently about this competition.
Joe
The battle was clearly between Irina and Sasha. Irina had the lackluster performance together with a few flubs, and Sasha, despite the fall, looked to me, like she got stage fright. A cool Sarah Hughes, despite a dreadful SP, skated her best ever,and you know what the results were.
The scores were obvious by nationalities with no one suspecting that Sarah, who skated first and received scores with plenty of space for the others to top.
But they didn't.
There is no reason for me to think differently about this competition.
Joe
Just my opinion, but Arakawa wasn't neither boring nor dull! For me, her LP was far more captivating than Sasha's! But this is just subjective, you like more Sasha I like more Shizuka. It's a matter of liking.
And IMO, Shizuka is superior to Sasha in a lot of aspects of skating. Certainly in terms of jump tecnique (IMO a flutz is a worse mistake than a lip) and quality, speed, posture, spirals, spins...
If I were a judge, I would have given the gold medal to Shizuka just for her Ina Bauer and beauty.
First, inconsistency is in and of itself a major problem. There was a thread on Sashafans.com some time ago, and other than a debate over the 2000 Nats, the majority agreed that Michelle deserved her other Nat victories over Sasha (they didn't necessarily agree that Kwan's marks were deserved, mind you, but most thought that Michelle deserved to win)
Second, Dick and Peggy play favorites -- for example, they criticize foreign skaters for certain things (such as inconsistency, flailing arms, etc.), but don't criticize American skaters who have the same defects.
Finally, I think that Dick and Peggy's raptures have been very bad for Sasha. They rave on and on how Sasha is the best ever, and does this, that, or the other thing better than Michelle. The result, IMO, is that when Michelle pours it on, she looks even better by comparison, whereas Sasha's inconsistent jumps is also inconsistent with the hype -- and she looks worse by comparison.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
You know what's cool? To see Irina Slutskaya perform in person and then afterward to look at the tracings on the ice.
Big, deep, natural curves, no scuffing of the ice, no sliding or wobbling, no skating on the flat.
To me, that's why Irina is two-time world champion, despite not being a Sasha-esque ballerina/angel, wow-look-at-this! type skater.
Big, deep, natural curves, no scuffing of the ice, no sliding or wobbling, no skating on the flat.
To me, that's why Irina is two-time world champion, despite not being a Sasha-esque ballerina/angel, wow-look-at-this! type skater.
I think it's important to remember that jumps were more important under the 6.0 system, so any consistent skaters had a huge advantage. Without even getting into why I think Michelle is the better skater (many have done a fabulous job explaining), scores under the 6.0 system were merely place holders. There were times at Nationals were Sasha skated before Michelle, had mistakes and got huge marks. Then Michelle would skate and throw down a cleaner performance. Then what? Needed bigger scores to trump Sasha's. So, maybe all Michelle's 6.0's weren't truly reflecting perfect performances, like with Bolero, but if Sasha's Nutcracker, which I found slow and tentative, with a fall and a hand down, could garner 5.8's and 5.9's, surely a mostly clean (doubled a planned triple), albeit a bit reserved Bolero should score higher.
I think Sasha has evolved tremendously as a skater over the years. She's always been an artistic skater with superior spins, but her skating basics (edges, speed, ice coverage), while better than the majority of skaters in the world, were exceeded Michelle, Irina, Fumie, Shizuka. I believe Sasha became a top skater in 2004, with TT. Before that, she had more glaring weaknesses-she'd land jumps on the wrong edge, had shallow edges, no power to her stroking, I found her entrances and exits from spins abrupt, very front loaded programs, and little choreo. Looking at 2004 on, she had glaring mistakes in every major competition and was outskated (except for 2006 Nationals.)
I realize the 2nd mark IS subjective in a lot of ways, but if the weaknesses are so glaring, and mistakes obvious, it doesn't matter how pointed the toes or pretty the skater.
But back O/T...Sasha has to know the judges have been itching to give her titles over the years, starting with Nationals 2000, but Sasha has not been able to deliver the best performance on a speific night. Before Nats. '06, the closest she came was Nats. '04, but a hard fall and a badly 2 ft'd jump landed her in 2nd with a 6.0 in the 2nd mark behind a emotionally charged, crisp and clean 6 triple performance. So, no, I don't think Sasha's discouraged by the judges, but maybe by the fact she lets herself lose focus and make mistakes on things she can do in her sleep.
I think Sasha has evolved tremendously as a skater over the years. She's always been an artistic skater with superior spins, but her skating basics (edges, speed, ice coverage), while better than the majority of skaters in the world, were exceeded Michelle, Irina, Fumie, Shizuka. I believe Sasha became a top skater in 2004, with TT. Before that, she had more glaring weaknesses-she'd land jumps on the wrong edge, had shallow edges, no power to her stroking, I found her entrances and exits from spins abrupt, very front loaded programs, and little choreo. Looking at 2004 on, she had glaring mistakes in every major competition and was outskated (except for 2006 Nationals.)
I realize the 2nd mark IS subjective in a lot of ways, but if the weaknesses are so glaring, and mistakes obvious, it doesn't matter how pointed the toes or pretty the skater.
But back O/T...Sasha has to know the judges have been itching to give her titles over the years, starting with Nationals 2000, but Sasha has not been able to deliver the best performance on a speific night. Before Nats. '06, the closest she came was Nats. '04, but a hard fall and a badly 2 ft'd jump landed her in 2nd with a 6.0 in the 2nd mark behind a emotionally charged, crisp and clean 6 triple performance. So, no, I don't think Sasha's discouraged by the judges, but maybe by the fact she lets herself lose focus and make mistakes on things she can do in her sleep.
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- Mar 30, 2006
I have to agree here. I was very disappointed by her long program that year when I went back and watched it again. I used to think she deserved the Bronze, but I'd give it to Slutskaya now (just barely, though, because her long program was not good either).
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
This thread is the reason people don't take figure skating seriously as a sport...
Sasha has failed to win multiple national titles, a world or olympic gold because she falls down in the long program and has shady technique... its unfortunate, but its true.
Maybe if she'd been born 5 years earlier or 5 years later, her fate as a figure skater might've turned out differently. But that's not the reality.
You can't change the history of this sport because you're a fan... If so, then Michelle Kwan should've won the '98 olympics over Tara because her "overall skating is far superior" than Tara's free spirited, electric skate. Michelle should've also won in '02 because she simply is better than Sarah Hughes and only had one little mistake, but her overall quality of skating was far superior. She should've also been the OGM in '06 because she did a very nice press conference. Please. This is a sport. If you can't win based on your ability to deliver, then you shouldn't win. Its very simple.
:sheesh:
Sasha has failed to win multiple national titles, a world or olympic gold because she falls down in the long program and has shady technique... its unfortunate, but its true.
Maybe if she'd been born 5 years earlier or 5 years later, her fate as a figure skater might've turned out differently. But that's not the reality.
You can't change the history of this sport because you're a fan... If so, then Michelle Kwan should've won the '98 olympics over Tara because her "overall skating is far superior" than Tara's free spirited, electric skate. Michelle should've also won in '02 because she simply is better than Sarah Hughes and only had one little mistake, but her overall quality of skating was far superior. She should've also been the OGM in '06 because she did a very nice press conference. Please. This is a sport. If you can't win based on your ability to deliver, then you shouldn't win. Its very simple.
:sheesh:
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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- Jun 27, 2003
