Sasha"s Qualifyer v. Shizuka"s LP

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm really interested in the views of others who were in Dortmund or those who saw both programs on TV.

Both skaters blew my mind. I tried to pick one performance over the other and I can not. I have no tape of Sasha"s Qualifyer so I can't have another look but what I saw in Dortmund was nothing less than superlative and then came Shizuka's LP!!!\

So if you have an unbiased opinion, let me and others who are interested to hear it as to whether one was better than the other.

Joe

 

[tharrtell]

Joe, interesting that both blew you away.

I was blown away by Shizuka's LP. I've enjoyed her skating for the last few years, but always thought her skating needed to be cleaned up a bit - just a little more refinement to take her from being an enjoyable skater to a wow skater. I was impressed with what I saw (with what Tarasova did in a month?). All her movements clean and pure which allowed her program to flow in a way that I've never noticed.

I didn't see Sasha's QR, but based on seeing the same program skated in the LP, I can't imagine that it'd come close to Shizuka's. There was no content. It is so hard for me to imagine that Sasha's gorgeous line would be enough to fill the blanks in that program no matter how on fire she was. I guess that's the power of emotion while skating?

 

[gezando]

I wan't there, but Sasha didn't even attempt the triple loop at QR, she completed six triples. I know it is not required that skaters attempt and complete all the different triples.

Probably a more interesting comparison will be Sasha's GP series swan lake, i.e. TT's choreography to Shizuka's world LP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Gezando and Thartell - I understand what you are saying but it is important to have seen Sasha"s QR. She was impeccable. I agree that the LP was sub par but the QR wa, imo so special and those around me that we though this is finally her year. Shizuka"s QR was excellent but no where near her LP. They were two very special performances but, unfortunately they were in separate competitions.

Sasha"s revised Swan was a 6.0 in the GP and much less in the LP.

Shizuka"s Nessum was 5.9 in the GP and 6.0 in the LP

If one compares the two 6.0 performances, I contend that there is a tie. As to the competition results, it was Shizuka's year definitely.


Joe

 

[gezando]

I thought you want to compare Sasha's QR free skate to Shizuka's free skate in the final lp round.

I believe you that Sasha skated to the fullest potential in the QR, but she failed to put in a triple loop, and Robin changed a lot of TT's music cuts and choreography. It is hard for me to imagine a full potential stroke jump, stroke spin version of Swan Lake can beat a skated to full potential Turandot. Arakawa had 3/3/2, a 3/3 (slightly underotated 3t), brilliant MITF, powerful strokes, and strong basic skating skills.

In the GP series they competed against each other three times. I had to learn to see why the judges placed Sasha's SC lp over Arakawa's lp at SC. I accepted it because even though Arakawa landed 3z/3t a real lutz to boot, TT's choreography was not front loaded, and there were interesting in betweens. So I figure if they both skated clean programs with the same # of triple jumps, Sasha may have a 3/3 advantage over Arakawa, meaning Sasha did not need a 3/3 to beat Arakawa. But Sasha probably does not have two 3/3 or a 3/3/2 and a 3/3 advantage over Shizuka evenif Sasha has a program that is loaded with inbetweens. And with a program that is stripped of interesting inbetweens, Sasha probably does not even have a one 3/3 advantage over Shizuka.

 

[hockeyfan228]

The thing that I found most impressive about Cohen's quali skate was that Wagner had removed some of Tarasova's choregraphy, but added more interesting stroking than just straight cross-overs. Cohen also showed more patience and pacing, building up to her highs, instead of hitting one highlight after another. Her ice coverage also changed, taking more curves, going deeper into the corners, and filling up the rink more. There was an undercurrent to her footwork that reflected the brooding of the music, and she was more shaded and much less back and forth across the ice in a straight line. It was so much more nuanced than I had seen before, yet there was something left to add in the LP.

When I saw her come out for the LP -- she was directly in front of us -- it was after a massive ovation for Arakawa. When her name was announced, she was playing with her laces, and then she paced around, without making much contact with Wagner. While she took her time to get to her start place, to me she looked scared. She also looked deflated after she didn't land the first 3L properly, and couldn't complete the combination. For the rest of the program, she took up less space in the rink, was fairly withdrawn (for her), and I suspect that she was thinking about doing the combination later, which she did, deeper in her program -- past the 2.5 minute mark -- the hardest combination performed by any woman after the first three or so elements and the first minute. Her tentativeness into the 3S was obvious, just as it was clear during the qualis as Kwan came to the entrance of her 3Lo that she wasn't going to land the jump.

It was so hard to watch, because looking at Cohen's face, I think she had it lost before she even hit her first pose. The judges had all of their 6.0's ready to give her, and they couldn't.

 

[gezando]

I suspect that she was thinking about doing the combination later, which she did, deeper in her program -- past the 2.5 minute mark -- the hardest combination performed by any woman after the first three or so elements and the first minute

Miki Ando did her 3t/3t just after the 2.5 minutes mark. Prior to the 2.5 mark Ando had done more than 3 - 4 element, 3z/3l, attempted 4s turned to 2s, cam spin, spiral sequence, and double axel. How is a 3t/3t easier than Sasha's triple flutz/ double toe. Actually I thought she did a 3f/2t, hard to tell because her flip and flutz approaches are practically the same.

Ando paced her program with jumps throughout start to minute 1, minute 1 -2, minute 2 -3 and minute 3 -4.

Cohen had to skate after Arakawa's massive ovation. Kirk had to skate after Cohen's ovation at Skate America and got one for her own.

Ando and Kostner had to skate after that freaky streaker incident with > 4 minute delay. I wonder if the streaker stunt didn't happen whether Miki and Kostner will do better. I was so rooting for Ando to land the first quad sal in senior worlds, but I guess she landed the first triple lutz/triple loop at ladies senior worlds?

Did Arakawa land the first 3z/3t/2l and Kostner landed the first 3f/3t/2l in ladies senior world?

 

[Rgirl]

Hockeyfan,
THANK YOU! You're the first person to really articulate the difference between Sasha's QR and her LP. When I saw Sasha's LP, I thought, "How did she get the marks she did in the QR, much less win it?" Your description of why Sasha's QR worked and her LP didn't makes a lot of sense. It's amazing how skaters can *shrink* during a performance compared to the *largeness* they had with the very same program.

Also, now that you mention it, variation in types of stroking was a hallmark of Sarah's skating. Having only seen the LP, I was so shocked at what was cut out of TAT's "Swan Lake" that I couldn't see beyond that. Also, the three dimensional aspect of the QR that, as you say, was mostly absent in the LP is interesting because ice coverage in a nonlinear fashion is one of the big things that don't show up on TV but that have a very big impact when you see skating live.

Anyway, for those of us who couldn't go to Dortmund, you answered a lot of questions--that is, at least you did for me.

And thanks JOE for starting this thread. I think a lot of people were probably scratching their heads over the same things I was and your and Hockeyfans posts will probably result in a lot less dandruff.
Rgirl

 

[hockeyfan228]

Miki Ando did her 3t/3t just after the 2.5 minutes mark. Prior to the 2.5 mark Ando had done more than 3 - 4 element, 3z/3l, attempted 4s turned to 2s, cam spin, spiral sequence, and double axel. How is a 3t/3t easier than Sasha's triple flutz/ double toe.

From where I was sitting, Ando's 2nd 3T looked like a slightly overrotated 2T. But I could be wrong about that. Unfortunately, I didn't set up the TiVo properly to get the Ladies' LP.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Did Arakawa land the first 3z/3t/2l and Kostner landed the first 3f/3t/2l in ladies senior world?

I believe Arakawa landed the 3Z/3T/2L in either qualis or free skate in DC. I don't of any other woman who landed the 3F/3T/2L.

I can't remember what Slutskaya's three-jump combo was a couple of years ago, maybe in GPF '01 (?). Does anyone else?

Cohen had to skate after Arakawa's massive ovation. Kirk had to skate after Cohen's ovation at Skate America and got one for her own.

I don't think these are comparable, as Arakawa was Cohen's chief rival, with more technical content, while there was little chance that Kirk was going to beat Cohen at Nationals.

I wrote this as a description of what was happening in the arena, not to offer an explanation of anything.

 

[Jaana]

When I saw her come out for the LP -- she was directly in front of us -- it was after a massive ovation for Arakawa.

Yes, Sasha skated later than Arakawa, but there was Sebestyen´s freeskate performance before Sasha.

Oh my, I´m always getting a scare as I see a skater fumbling with the skates just as she is exprected to go and start her programme. Robin looked very concerned as she was watching Sasha correcting her skates.

Marjaana

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jaana, the order of skate for the LP I believe was Ando; Kwan, Arakawa; Sokolova; Cohen, Sebastyen. Elena did not skate well at all and there was little 'roar' from the crowd - nothing to make Sasha nervous. I don't believe she saw Arakawa's LP.

It looked to me that Sasha was fiddling with her shoe laces.

For ABC Viewers: the order of skate on ABC, is not the way it actually happend.

Joe

 

[shilan]

Actual Skate Order

The actual skate order for the final group was as follows:

19 Shizuka ARAKAWA JPN
20 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN
21 Sasha COHEN USA
22 Michelle KWAN USA
23 Miki ANDO JPN
24 Carolina KOSTNER ITA


I believe this is how ABC showed it as well. They didn't show the SP in their actual skating order, though...

 

[hockeyfan228]

Yes, Sasha skated later than Arakawa, but there was Sebestyen´s freeskate performance before Sasha.

You're right, my notes were in the wrong order. I was also remembering the feeling of standing and screaming for Sebestyen when she finished along with the Italian coaches behind us, who loved her too, and confused this with Arakawa's ovation.

Wagner couldn't get Cohen's attention during Cohen's pre-skate prep, which was a bit nerve-wracking. Our discussion in the stands was whether there was a time limit from when the skater's name was called to when s/he started the program, and, if so, how long that is. We were afraid she'd be docked for taking so long.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

I believe they have one minute from the time their name is called to reach their starting position. This is what caused all the drama in the 94 Olympics with Tonya....

Laura

 

[skatingfan5]

Two minute warning

Skaters have two minutes to begin their program from the time their name is announced. I believe the "penalty" is disqualification -- now THAT would be really harsh if it were strictly enforced, wouldn't it? However, I think that most skaters are well aware of how long two minutes is -- it's half the time for a ladies free program.

ABC showed the final flight for the ladies FS in the same order as it was skated: Arakawa, Sebestyen, Cohen, Kwan, Ando, Kostner. On the ABC broadcast, they only showed Sasha and Michelle's SP -- and in the reverse order that they were skated, for some reason. Likely fit their "storyline" better. Heaven forbid that they treat it strictly as a real sporting event.

 

[Lucy25]

I remember just before Sasha was to skate her LP in SLC, she was retying her skates. The Commentator (Sandra Bezic?) said that it was a nervous habit of Sasha's. She said she could always tell when Sasha was nervous because she would play with the laces. When I saw her do this at Worlds, I thought, "Uh oh...she's feeling the nerves!".

 

[imanta]

Thanks Joesitz and Hockeyfan! Hockeyfan that was a great explanation of the difference between Sasha's QR and LP and also just the nuances of the QR you saw as well. It does help me to understand why she may have scored so well in the QR when her LP (at least on TV) wasn't nearly as wonderful as she has the potential to be. It sounds like those 2 performances of hers were very different. So you guys, does this give you confidence that if Robin does do her choreography from here on she can have dynamic, interesting, nuanced choreography? With Hockeyfan's description it gives me more hope. I was never super-fond of Sarah's programs and some of her choreography actually even bugged me (although she herself was a very good skater---not trying to start anything---just personal preference). Any thoughts?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Imanta - From my point of view the difference between Sasha's Quali and her LP was day and night. Her quali showed her taking complete command of the ice. It was brilliant.

So when fans are blaming it on Wagner's revised Swan Lake, I just don't buy it. One could have a preference of the two versions, but the bottom line was the skate itself.

I hav't mentioned Shizuka's Quali. It was excellent but not as good as her LP.. I'm kinda getting to believe that a skater who doesn't fall during the powerful Nessum Dorma will bring the house down.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Imanta - From my point of view the difference between Sasha's Quali and her LP was day and night. Her quali showed her taking complete command of the ice. It was brilliant.

So when fans are blaming it on Wagner's revised Swan Lake, I just don't buy it. One could have a preference of the two versions, but the bottom line was the skate itself.

I hav't mentioned Shizuka's Quali. It was excellent but not as good as her LP.. I'm kinda getting to believe that a skater who doesn't fall during the powerful Nessum Dorma will bring the house down.

This is why it is so great to hear from people like you and Hockeyfan, who saw all three rounds--QR, SP, LP--live. You guys (using *guys* in a nongender way) were able to see things that weren't broadcast and as many people have said many times, there's nothing like seeing skating live.

I have no idea what to think about Robin Wagner as a choreographer for Sasha compared to Tarasova. Even Chris Dean and Lori Nichol have choreographed some clunkers, and we've only seen RW's work on Sarah. What does impress me is that RW worked on more intricate and varied stroking with Sasha. Also, at Nats and especially at Worlds, Sasha's jumps in the SP looked rock solid and with great run-out. Sasha needs better blade control and this in turn should help her jumps. OTOH, RW never got Sarah to fix her flutz. Anyway, next season should be quite interesting.

Thanks again Joe and Hockeyfan. BTW, Hockeyfan, it didn't sound to me like you were trying to explain or put your spin on what you saw. Your post was very much *just the facts, ma'am,* but facts I hadn't heard from anyone else. So just by presenting the facts, your post *explained* a lot for me, if that makes sense.
Rgirl