Scott Moir says its a piss off

[Mrs. P]

The biggest strides I see from D/W have been largely technical, but I can't get over how much more naturally they seem to move then before (it's particularly true when you compare it to the Tango, which never reached that level, imo). I actually think they have the better SD between the two (it's more cohesive) and they really have worked on their performance/projection. What I want to see more is connection to each other. I thnk I could watch one or the other and see no difference then when I watch both (this is true in both dances, but here it's more noticeable). Artisticallly.... okay - I've actually seen Die Fledermaus more times than I've seen Funny Face (mainly because I wanted to watch that first rotational lift over and over again), but when I imagine the dance, I can't place it with the music. Now, I'm not as familiar musically with the former as I am with the latter, but there's no difference in D/W's waltz with or without music.

YMMV here, but I feel the opposite. That dance totally matches up for me to Die Fiedermaus. I can't see that same waltz being done with another waltz, say Carousel or even the pieces they skate to last year. I'm not a waltz expert so I can't articulate it well, but that dance equals Die Fiedermaus -- namely because of Charlie and Meryl's personality.

I think another poster said it better to me -- it's a classic waltz, but with a bit of personification in it. That's why I think it works so well.

 

[Olympia]

I agree that the waltz matches the music brilliantly. It's Old Vienna to me, and both Meryl and Charlie contribute to the mood and personality of it.


This is not to say I think Funny Face is inferior. I don't have the expertise to analyze and compare the two dances the way so many of you do. I have watched FF several times and also love it. As far as I can tell, both dances are extraordinary. But there's something about the Fledermaus waltz for me that makes it an iota more appealing. (Maybe it's my love of waltzes.) I'm just thrilled that we have two such stupendous couples doing their best work right now. Today one couple will win, tomorrow the other. As long as they keep skating, that's cool with me.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Wow ! I've been watching this thread evolve , not really wanting to get into the middle of another controversy over a questionable choice of words that gets blown out of all proportion.. Now that the dust has settled a bit , I find there are still some things that I take a bit of exception to.

To begin with , to say something is a piss-off...yeah , it's kind of jock talk , and I don't know about anywhere else , but in Canada it's a very , very common colloquialism. It's certainly not the most genteel way of expressing oneself , but it can barely even be considered a vulgarity anymore , at worst, it's a pretty mild one . Taken in context , the interview was in no way trash talk against D/W.

Was Scott right to express his views in some form or other ? Yes. Especially since his coach is also the coach of D/W , and if there was a bit of inflation ( or depression ) in the marks , she couldn't really say so . She would then not be doing her best for D/W. Yet to not call attention to the discrepancy being in PCS marks was not doing the best for V/M...so the job fell to Scott. That's better than if no -one raised the question out loud.

Last night ,I noticed it's come around to..D/W have grown ,and V/M have not ( even taking Tessa's injury into account ). ...Pardon me , but that strikes me as a bit of a false claim. I think many of the arguments presented don't take Tessa's injury into account , but use V/M's struggles in one area to proclaim advancement in another area for D/W.

Tessa's had to adopt a whole new way of training right down to something as basic as changing her stroke . They still have challenges to face.( e.g. lifts which doris has astutely pointed out elsewhere ) They're still adjusting..Yes. But to say " they haven't grown " implies complacency, which ( competitors that they are ) I think is the last thing they can be accused of.

Meryl and Charlie have certainly grown. I can see the strides they've made over the last year or so . Thanks to the tango ?...Maybe... but thanks to their work ethic for sure. But to me , this has been technical growth , not artistic. Their expression , connection to each other , nuance , emotion is pretty much what it has been .

Now , some people don't like the expression of Romantic love in programs , or maybe they don't like that V/M express this kind of theme so well. They accuse V/M of same old , same old endlessly ... and we read the same old lovey- dovey ..ooey- gooey charges over and over....they rely on Triste, UoC , and Mahler to make their point. Short programs ? Ignore them , or admit they were good, but point out they still preferred someone else's. Personal preferences are perfectly valid, but that's not what their argument is supposed to be about.

Look , out of the last 4 years V/M have done exactly one "romantic " FD program. Mahler. Before that , it was Great Gig . Last year Latin , this year FF. The thing is, when they do a romantic love program , they do it so well, it stays with you. It's beautiful. But it's certainly not the only kind of thing they've done well , or that they're capable of doing. They do do it better than anyone else, right now.

What do D/W do well ? They really excel at playful short programs , and for FD , programs to big, sweeping, Romantic era music , or ( as with Phantom ) music written to evoke that era. We've seen this type of program from them 3 out of the last 4 years. Last year's tango , they absolutely slaved at until they had it very, very polished technically , but there was no real tango soul there.You couldn't feel they were truly living that dance They fully deserved their win, nonetheless.

I love their skating. I love to see them take on something swooping and grand. It's what they do best ..of course I want to see it. It's just a perfect thing.

I love V/M's skating. I love to see them do what they do best , too. It's another perfect thing , and I won't tire of it anytime soon. They have a subtle inner connection that is unmatched by any other team. For me, this gives them the edge artistically speaking. D/W skate brilliantly together , they've improved unison , line , neatness. But they don't possess the sense of oneness that V/M do.

I adore Fledermaus. It's a stroke of genius on Marina's part that plays fabulously to D/W's strengths. But is it a leap ahead for them artistically ? No. It's just right up their alley.

I don't feel the same sense of " so right for them " with FF , but that has nothing to do with how the program is designed ,what is it's content , how they skate it , or are they expressing it well ? If I was a judge, should my personal preference for the music, the style of program, etc. colour my perception of what the skaters are achieving on the ice ? Did this happen ? I don't know , or to what degree it may have ...but perhaps getting people to be aware of the possibility isn't such a travesty.

 

[Mathman]

Semi-off-topic, but.

I don't like T/D's Bolero.

Me too. I think it was one of these things where you had to be there. It was the whole atmosphere and context that provided just the right frame for this performance. A lot of my very favorite performances by my very favorite skaters are like that. I am over the moon at the time. Then when I look back at them, I'm like, what was so great about that?

 

[Violet Bliss]

I know Bolero is one piece of music one must hear live. (Next best?) Maybe the dance too. It was mighty great on TV though.

 

[dorispulaski]

The real Ice Dance ticket in 1984 was T&D's Paso Doble OSP, which I could watch on a continuous loop and never tire of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwXTYlsynM8

IMO, there is a point where brilliant technical skill is art, and another where great art requires consummate technical skill. Both trajectories tend towards each other, and both ultimately lead to that explosion of wonder that is the perfect performance.

Both teams are headed to that point, where greatness lies IMO.

When IP tells me that he has watched D&W's FD many times just to see that amazing moment of their perfect rotational lift, he's showing you where D&W are now on that path-not yet at the end, but tending there.

 

[Olympia]

The real Ice Dance ticket in 1984 was T&D's Paso Doble OSP, which I could watch on a continuous loop and never tire of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwXTYlsynM8

IMO, there is a point where brilliant technical skill is art, and another where great art requires consummate technical skill. Both trajectories tend towards each other, and both ultimately lead to that explosion of wonder that is the perfect performance.

Both teams are headed to that point, where greatness lies IMO.

When IP tells me that he has watched D&W's FD many times just to see that amazing moment of their perfect rotational lift, he's showing you where D&W are now on that path-not yet at the end, but tending there.

I always liked the paso doble better than the Bolero, partly because I just love the Rimsky-Korsakov music, from his Capriccio Espagnol. It's got such a great rolling rhythm. And their black-and-white costumes were stunning. Bolero is magnificent too, of course! But that compulsory dance is the one that lingered in my mind. That whole event, even on TV, was a tremendous moment for me. I remember all my friends talking about them on the night after the paso doble, and all of us running home eagerly to see the final night of the competition. It was one of the high points of my skating fandom.


Since I don't want to double-post, I'll add this totally unrelated paragraph to the old post. I just went back and watched Tessa and Scott's 2010 Mahler FD and then Meryl and Charlie's current Fledermaus program. One thing that has struck me throughout their career is how skillfully Shpilband and Zoueva bring out each couple's individual flavor. It's great that evaluating the world's two greatest couples is like comparing apples and oranges, instead of like comparing two peas in a pod. Meryl and Charlie seem sharper, more buoyant, while Scott and Tessa are smoother and more delicate. It isn't just the music, of course, but the delivery. Neither of these couples seems to be overshadowed by the other in S/Z's attention. Kudos to all six of the people involved.

 

[Dodhiyel]

The real Ice Dance ticket in 1984 was T&D's Paso Doble OSP, which I could watch on a continuous loop and never tire of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwXTYlsynM8

IMO, there is a point where brilliant technical skill is art, and another where great art requires consummate technical skill. Both trajectories tend towards each other, and both ultimately lead to that explosion of wonder that is the perfect performance.

Both teams are headed to that point, where greatness lies IMO.

When IP tells me that he has watched D&W's FD many times just to see that amazing moment of their perfect rotational lift, he's showing you where D&W are now on that path-not yet at the end, but tending there.

Thanks for the link, Doris. I think T&D are the cat's whiskers, always have. This Paso Doble seems to capture the spirit of that dance even better than dancers do on Dancing with the Stars. The choreo is so appropriate, so artful.

 

[Mathman]

This Paso Doble seems to capture the spirit of that dance even better than dancers do on Dancing with the Stars.

Even better than Kristi Yamaguchi and Evan Lysacek?

 

[seniorita]

Semi-off-topic, but.

I don't like T/D's Bolero.

me neither. But I m glad someone else said it loud!

 

[Spun Silver]

Doesn't do anything for me either. I thought it was my fault.

 

[russell30]

I have a feeling that V/M will part from Zueva/Shpilband at the end of the year. I feel they may move to Tarasova or Linichuk?. They wont stay around if D/W win another world title.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It's possible, but they won't go to Linichuk. Retirement is more likely.

 

[Olympia]

In a way, there's nothing more for V/M to achieve. They're so innovative that maybe at this point the rules are constricting their growth. I mean, look at how we've had to dissect their every move and turn to compare their quality with Davis/White--as if one could do such a thing with two such stellar couples. That removes the whole purpose of the programs they've created, which should be taken as a whole, not with cold eyes cast on whether they have a pause in the middle or use the "wrong" kind of lift. I don't know what the possibilities in pro skating are these days, but maybe that's where they're most needed, even if they have to do a lot of that skating internationally at first, in Asia for example, until North Americans get smart enough to know what it is they're missing out on.

Davis/White are just as wonderful, but they're still shooting for their complete medal haul, so it makes sense for them to stay in. But what is meaningful to V/M about getting an additional Olympic gold? For them to have some extra line in a record book? These aren't skaters made for statistical victories. They're made for beautiful skating. Of course, if they stay in eligible skating, I'll be thrilled. But they can't expect to win every time, and if they don't win every time, it's no reflection at all on their uniqueness or excellence.

 

[mmcdermott]

Davis/White are just as wonderful, but they're still shooting for their complete medal haul, so it makes sense for them to stay in. But what is meaningful to V/M about getting an additional Olympic gold? For them to have some extra line in a record book? These aren't skaters made for statistical victories. They're made for beautiful skating. Of course, if they stay in eligible skating, I'll be thrilled. But they can't expect to win every time, and if they don't win every time, it's no reflection at all on their uniqueness or excellence.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think they would want to miss the opportunity to skate in front of their home-town crowd at worlds in 2013. That would be awesome (and meaningful), whether they win or not. Few athletes ever get a chance to do that.

I also sort of suspect that V/M are a big part of the reason why worlds are being held in London, Ontario, in the first place.

 

[blackswanphoto]

Does anyone else think that it would be a good idea for Davis and White to do a remake of Torvill and Dean's Pase Doble? I think it's an excellent idea to do a modern version! I think if V/M were to go to another coach it would definitely not be Linichuk. That woman still has a BAD reputation because of what happened with Bebin/Agosto and that terrible Aborigines program. That was complete career torture. If they go anywhere I think it's more than likely to Krylova.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think they can go to Tarasova, either. Isn't she committed to working only with Russian teams and skaters leading up to Sochi? They could go to Camerlengo / Krylova, though.

Not retiring after Vancouver did pose a risk to them, not just because of Tessa's legs, but also the possibility of losing to another team. When they chose to stay in, they had to accept those risks. Apparently Scott never thought losing was a possibility once Tessa was completely healthy.

 

[dorispulaski]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think they would want to miss the opportunity to skate in front of their home-town crowd at worlds in 2013. That would be awesome (and meaningful), whether they win or not. Few athletes ever get a chance to do that.

I also sort of suspect that V/M are a big part of the reason why worlds are being held in London, Ontario, in the first place.

Yes, and yes. ITA

I don't think they can go to Tarasova, either. Isn't she committed to working only with Russian teams and skaters leading up to Sochi? They could go to Camerlengo / Krylova, though.

Not retiring after Vancouver did pose a risk to them, not just because of Tessa's legs, but also the possibility of losing to another team. When they chose to stay in, they had to accept those risks. Apparently Scott never thought losing was a possibility once Tessa was completely healthy.

Linichuk is a great technical coach, but her current taste is apparently not the taste of those who currently judge ice dance.

I also worry about injuries in her camp.

Sometimes the skaters came to her 'pre injured' like Max Shabalin, of course, but there seem to be more of them than I would like to see, particularly men having knee and back problems. It could be inferior orthopedic doctors in the Astin area, but I doubt it.

 

[KKonas]

I don't think they can go to Tarasova, either. Isn't she committed to working only with Russian teams and skaters leading up to Sochi? They could go to Camerlengo / Krylova, though.

Not retiring after Vancouver did pose a risk to them, not just because of Tessa's legs, but also the possibility of losing to another team. When they chose to stay in, they had to accept those risks. Apparently Scott never thought losing was a possibility once Tessa was completely healthy.

I think you are correct in saying that Scott probably never thought they would lose once Tessa was healthy. He kept saying in teleconferences that they wanted "their title back." But if he thought that Charlie's good nature was to be happy with just being second, he thought wrong.

 

[dorispulaski]

I think you are correct in saying that Scott probably never thought they would lose once Tessa was healthy. He kept saying in teleconferences that they wanted "their title back." But if he thought that Charlie's good nature was to be happy with just being second, he thought wrong.

Yes, I don't think Scott ever thought he & Tessa were going to lose to Charlie & Meryl if he & Tessa were both healthy. He probably thought that was especially unlikely with the competition being in Canada, and with them having great crowd support there.