Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

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I've been very conflicted on this topic for a while now and have stayed away from this thread because of that...i see both sides of the argument, but it seems to me the root of the issue are the jumps and not age. there wouldn't be an issue if juniors and below weren't doing quads. this may have been discussed somewhere in here before, but would the issue be solved or at least lessened if quads were only allowed for seniors? if people still have a problem with 15 year olds doing quads, then up the age a year to 16. i think anything higher than that will detract from the sport and lessen participation...no one is going to want to wait until 17 or 18 to compete in seniors. this way regardless of whether or not the age limit stays the same, very young skaters won't be drilling quads at 11-14 years old and putting them out in competition so young.

My opinion is that those who have problems are heavily biased people who are in minority. Ladies' figure skating is on the rise at least in Russia, Japan, and Korea. When some prodigies follow Alysa Liu the same will happen in the U.S.A. When was the last time before Alina that Japanese PM had an audience with a Russian skater? Has it ever happenned before? There has been a lot of statistics on popularity even in this thread. But the minority will keep insisting that the sport is dying and they are not interested.

The most strange thing though is that some of the quads of those youngsters are simply beautiful like Sasha's 4T. How can one have problems with it?

 

[el henry]

Being a non regular poster doesn't make someone a non regular figure skating follower.
People can enjoy more real life than posting here all day. For example I joined this community last july and I don't post often but I have been following this sport for almost 15 years now and I go to see live competitions whenever I can and I guess there are lot of people like me; so I find disrespectful to judge the value of a poster based on the number of his posts. We can all have differents views and also say that we lost interest in ladies, men, pairs or whatever we want and nobody has the right to laugh at the reasons behind. This is a forum and if we're not able to accept others and accept the fact that they may have different views maybe this is not the right place for us.

Oh and I do not agree with you when you say that "men fall all the time", for me first it's not true and second it's not a good reason to not follow men but it's ok, this is your opinion and I don't make fun of you here in front of thousands viewers by writing something like this is the funniest thing or this is nonsense or by assuming a provoking tone.

Well said! Please post long and often and become a “regular”poster.

I don’t see the point of characterizing posters *themselves*. What’s the point? Because of course if someone says it, I will agree I am the moral police, so dreadfully biased as to beggar belief, I don’t know one thing about sports and certainly not about figure skating, and I am standing in the way of progress, progress, progress.

OK, sure, now that I’ve been told who I am, I believe every word

Happy New Year to all!

 

[macy]

My opinion is that those who have problems are heavily biased people who are in minority. Ladies' figure skating is on the rise at least in Russia, Japan, and Korea. When some prodigies follow Alysa Liu the same will happen in the U.S.A. When was the last time before Alina that Japanese PM had an audience with a Russian skater? Has it ever happenned before? There has been a lot of statistics on popularity even in this thread. But the minority will keep insisting that the sport is dying and they are not interested.

The most strange thing though is that some of the quads of those youngsters are simply beautiful like Sasha's 4T. How can one have problems with it?

they do have beautiful quads, but it seems those who want to raise the age limit argue for one of 2 reasons- to protect young girls health and growing bodies (which i do agree with), or they don't want the sport turning into a jumping contest. as much as i like watching quads, personally i don't think it's healthy for growing bodies that havent even hit puberty yet to be drilling them, this is why i wonder if limiting them to seniors would help. it could sort of be a catch all solution i guess. a 15 year old still has some growing to do, but usually one is well into puberty by then...but if they are really concerned about having the majority of senior ladies be at least mostly done with puberty, they could do 16.

 

[flanker]

they do have beautiful quads, but it seems those who want to raise the age limit argue for one of 2 reasons- to protect young girls health and growing bodies (which i do agree with), or they don't want the sport turning into a jumping contest. as much as i like watching quads, personally i don't think it's healthy for growing bodies that havent even hit puberty yet to be drilling them, this is why i wonder if limiting them to seniors would help. it could sort of be a catch all solution i guess. a 15 year old still has some growing to do, but usually one is well into puberty by then...but if they are really concerned about having the majority of senior ladies be at least mostly done with puberty, they could do 16.

And we are at the beginning again. If there is health concern, then, if that's backed by serious data (which is not so far) that it is significantly more dangerous than other content, the question is whether ban quads completely, not whether to raise the age limit. Because just moving quads from senior to junior category is not solving the health problem. And I really don't want to make senior category to be lower level of difficulty than the junior one, at least temporarily.

So far the idea of raising the age eligibility is mostly (not completely, but mostly) brought up by the people who simply don't like modern skating and the coure of its development and all the arguments (incl. the one aboput the health) are only substitutive. They just have different view of the sport, that's their right, but it is not the reason why the development should be stopped. If a person from the year 1908 involved in skating would watch skating in 1988, she wouldn't belive into what it has turned. But the 1988 is not the final form of the sport. 2010 is not the final form of the sport and so is not 2020. It is just the natural development.

 

[Giu]

Well said! Please post long and often and become a “regular”poster.

I don’t see the point of characterizing posters *themselves*. What’s the point? Because of course if someone says it, I will agree I am the moral police, so dreadfully biased as to beggar belief, I don’t know one thing about sports and certainly not about figure skating, and I am standing in the way of progress, progress, progress.

OK, sure, now that I’ve been told who I am, I believe every word

Happy New Year to all!

Thank you!

We have not had direct discussions with you yet, hence, I will tell you just once. "Moral police" does not work with me. Therefore, please, spare your comments on how I should behave for someone else. If you want to discuss something personal with me, please, PM me. I am sure that "thousands of viewers" are not interested in what you think about me. Have a good day!

Uhm... No, I will not spare my comments for anyone. Since nobody is doing it I don't see any reason why I should be the first.
Anyway, thanks for your kind suggestion :sarcasm:

 

[macy]

And we are at the beginning again. If there is health concern, then, if that's backed by serious data (which is not so far) that it is significantly more dangerous than other content, the question is whether ban quads completely, not whether to raise the age limit. Because just moving quads from senior to junior category is not solving the health problem. And I really don't want to make senior category to be lower level of difficulty than the junior one, at least temporarily.

So far the idea of raising the age eligibility is mostly (not completely, but mostly) brought up by the people who simply don't like modern skating and the coure of its development and all the arguments (incl. the one aboput the health) are only substitutive. They just have different view of the sport, that's their right, but it is not the reason why the development should be stopped. If a person from the year 1908 involved in skating would watch skating in 1988, she wouldn't belive into what it has turned. But the 1988 is not the final form of the sport. 2010 is not the final form of the sport and so is not 2020. It is just the natural development.

the issue here is there may not be any evidence of this until the current gen of skaters and later retire. they may not develop issues during their skating career or they might, or maybe years after they retire or even not at all. the concern is definitely valid though.

and you may have misread my previous post- my suggestion was to ban quads at all levels besides senior, not moving them from senior to junior.

 

[flanker]

the issue here is there may not be any evidence of this until the current gen of skaters and later retire. they may not develop issues during their skating career or they might, or maybe years after they retire or even not at all. the concern is definitely valid though.

and you may have misread my previous post- my suggestion was to ban quads at all levels besides senior, not moving them from senior to junior.

It was not so much about your suggestion but about how sometimes people imagine the solving of the problem by rising the age egibility, which for the near future could lead to the state where the performances of the top juniors would be much more interesting.

I am against banning anything without a reason. Many things, that are possible in today's sport were considered impossible once. Yes, there are health issues in top sport, but they are there whether there will be quads or not. Just be too "caring" in one particular sport with one particular element seems like a nonsense to me unless there is evident reason. Would you forbit junior high jumpers to jump over some height or junior sprinter to run over a particular speed? Sounds like a nonsense to me and prohibiting quads, when there is absolutely zero evidence that quad jumpers would suffer more injuries than those who don't jump them would be in higher danger. It's much more the question of proper training technique than thew number of rotations. BTW, where would be 3A for juniors? Should that be allowed or not? Is half of the rotation such a big difference from the perspective of health? And if there should be a limit, where it should be? And why precisely here and not there? That can't be decided from the table (or because part of the spectators don't like the jumps, mostly because their favorites don't have them).

 

[[email protected]]

It was not so much about your suggestion but about how sometimes people imagine the solving of the problem by rising the age egibility, which for the near future could lead to the state where the performances of the top juniors would be much more interesting.

I am against banning anything without a reason. Many things, that are possible in today's sport were considered impossible once. Yes, there are health issues in top sport, but they are there whether there will be quads or not. Just be too "caring" in one particular sport with one particular element seems like a nonsense to me unless there is evident reason. Would you forbit junior high jumpers to jump over some height or junior sprinter to run over a particular speed? Sounds like a nonsense to me and prohibiting quads, when there is absolutely zero evidence that quad jumpers would suffer more injuries than those who don't jump them would be in higher danger. It's much more the question of proper training technique than thew number of rotations. BTW, where would be 3A for juniors? Should that be allowed or not? Is half of the rotation such a big difference from the perspective of health? And if there should be a limit, where it should be? And why precisely here and not there? That can't be decided from the table (or because part of the spectators don't like the jumps, mostly because their favorites don't have them).

And that's the key point.

 

[Mathman]

And that's the key point.

? I do not see any evidence at all that people are against quads for the sole reason that their favorites don't have them. Why must we impute insincere and unworthy motives to people who express opinions that are different from our own?

We are all friends here. Live and let live.

 

[[email protected]]

? I do not see any evidence at all that people are against quads for the sole reason that their favorites don't have them. Why must we impute insincere and unworthy motives to people who express opinions that are different from our own?

We are all friends here. Live and let live.

What evidence are you talking about? People are free to withhold their real thoughts and motives. That's why those who are against quads and vote for the age increase were asked more than once to bring the evidence that: a) those girls (well, the Russians and Alysa Liu) who do quads risk their health more than those who don't b) there are current senior skaters who would make figure skating more enjoyable sport if they were freed from competing with 15 year olds. As flanker noted more than once the evidence was never there. Instead we had prolonged discussions who is more famous, Hanyu or Zagitova.

Then without any evidence to support it (once again, this evidence is just impossible to obtain) I just went to seemingly logical and, therefore, likely reason. Nothing more.

And I am pacifist myself. Not only did I never go hunting, here at GS, unlike others, I never preach to people what they should or should not say, unless they themselves start these discussions with me. Live and let live is fine with me (although in Russia this is often the slogan of corrupted politicians).

 

[skateluvr]

And we are at the beginning again. If there is health concern, then, if that's backed by serious data (which is not so far) that it is significantly more dangerous than other content, the question is whether ban quads completely, not whether to raise the age limit. Because just moving quads from senior to junior category is not solving the health problem. And I really don't want to make senior category to be lower level of difficulty than the junior one, at least temporarily.

So far the idea of raising the age eligibility is mostly (not completely, but mostly) brought up by the people who simply don't like modern skating and the coure of its development and all the arguments (incl. the one aboput the health) are only substitutive. They just have different view of the sport, that's their right, but it is not the reason why the development should be stopped. If a person from the year 1908 involved in skating would watch skating in 1988, she wouldn't belive into what it has turned. But the 1988 is not the final form of the sport. 2010 is not the final form of the sport and so is not 2020. It is just the natural development.

And it has reached a natural limit I think you will see. Yes there will be more small young girls doing what Tara did and now Sambo 70 club. But it is very rare anyone can do this. And even Sasha can’t do what she lays out in competition. Not consistently. My money says we have reached the max re the jump revolution in male and female singles. It isn’t what I wish or don’t. Common sense and intelligence informs me as I have watched this experiment unfold. The quote smacks of ageism. But you can have any opinion. Good point.

You know we went to the moon and why do it again? Waste money when people in USA have no universal health care? The earth is dying. How much time is left for sports at all? Studies have said human beings are no longer evolving genetically or IQ wise and that we are devolving. Could this be the last times of the earth and all art and science is reaching a zenith? Just a though for 2020. Our sport has reached a zenith technically my gut tells me. I believe that. So enjoy what there is while there is still art and sport. Thank heavens for Russia, Japan, Korea for their last days of skating contributions. And less often my USA Canada and Europe- passing empires....Anyone agree with the big picture I see so clearly?

 

[el henry]

What evidence are you talking about? People are free to withhold their real thoughts and motives. That's why those who are against quads and vote for the age increase were asked more than once to bring the evidence that: a) those girls (well, the Russians and Alysa Liu) who do quads risk their health more than those who don't b) there are current senior skaters who would make figure skating more enjoyable sport if they were freed from competing with 15 year olds. As flanker noted more than once the evidence was never there. Instead we had prolonged discussions who is more famous, Hanyu or Zagitova.

Then without any evidence to support it (once again, this evidence is just impossible to obtain) I just went to seemingly logical and, therefore, likely reason. Nothing more.

And I am pacifist myself. Not only did I never go hunting, here at GS, unlike others, I never preach to people what they should or should not say, unless they themselves start these discussions with me. Live and let live is fine with me (although in Russia this is often the slogan of corrupted politicians).

The discussions about who was more famous was started by an OP from someone who believed that age limits should not be raised and that to support that contention, alleged that Alina and Sasha were the two most famous skaters in the *world*. Period. Not just ladies.

Not surprising that such a contention was disputed The argument about diversion would be with the OP, and not those who responded.

Making allegations in the absence of proof is indeed frustrating. Like the allegations that posters are jealous. And when I say I am not jealous, and show me one post that *I* have written... not “some people”, not “it stands to reason”, not just a conclusion without evidence .... crickets.

Imputing motives to others without evidence cannot work, and supports no one’s argument