Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[KatGrace1925]

This. I am from the US. You will be able to walk down the street and find persons, not many, but a relative few, who know Yuzu.
You will find *no one* who can name Alena, Anna or Sasha;( here I am talking not about dedicated skating fans but the general public. )

Maybe, just maybe, you’ll be able to find somebody who knows Alina because she was in the Olympics, but just as many people know Zhenya because she was also in the Olympics. It will be less than those who know Yuzu.

And of course middle aged ladies rock. I am proud that the members of Goldenskate would not be so sexist or ageist so as to dismiss anyone’s fans because they were supposedly middle-aged ladies. And of course anyone who thinks that Yuzu’s are *limited* to middle-age ladies in Japan, I think must not be paying attention.

Multiple Olympic cycles for all skaters!

Ever noticed women are always shamed for existing as fans? Things that teenage and early 20s girls like are bad, things that middle aged ladies like are bad? When can women being fans be valid? When?

 

[Mathman]

What would you say about those who seem to be only interested in "mature bodies" then...

? I would not say anything about them.

I think you are trying to start an argument where none exists. Some people like this, some like that. Some like youthful athleticism, some like artistic growth over a long career.

 

[el henry]

Ever noticed women are always shamed for existing as fans? Things that teenage and early 20s girls like are bad, things that middle aged ladies like are bad? When can women being fans be valid? When?

And, to go off topic somewhat, but not completely, when will women stop being lectured about what is and is not a sport?

I know darn well figure skating is a sport and I know what aspects about it I prize *as a sport*.

Why don’t we talk about whether Boston Scott is the next Darren Sproles, whether Miles Sanders should be OROTY, and how the heck does Carson Wentz do it. Oh, wait a minute, wrong forum and wrong sport? Well that’s OK, but then don’t tell me what is and is not a sport. Of course, anyone can and should disagree with me about what aspects of figure skating are important or not, but to act as though I don’t know what sport is?

And #FlyEaglesFly

 

[eaglehelang]

Well, to be fair, general public outside of Japan has no clue who Yuzuru Hanyu is, and that’s saying something.


I mean we can argue about who brought more interest to the sport, an athlete who competed longer but haven’t won any major titles, or the one who competed less but won a lot of titles?

Imo, it’s not about longevity, and not even about wins, although they do matter. It’s about personalities and their stories. Some younger ones can bring a lot more people to the sport due to their inspiring stories compared to some older athletes.

For Yuzuru, he is known all right, at the very least as the Japanese guy who won it 2X. It's reported in the mainstream news. And if according to google, one of the most searched athletes worldwide. Cos he was the 1st Asian male to win mens singles OG Gold.
As was Shen/Zhao when they won pairs Gold in 2010.

And because of that, spark interest abt figure skating in Asia. Why did you think I started following FS when I'm from a non FS country? Cos of Shen/Zhao. And they had a long career.

For those of us who started out from other sports, longevity of an athlete creates a following of that athlete till retirement.
If not, how else we know who is Alexandria Raisman, Simone Biles, Aliya Mustafina of gymnastics. And Guo Jing Jing, Wu Min Xia, Chen Ruo Lin of diving.

 

[nussnacker]

For Yuzuru, he is known all right, at the very least as the Japanese guy who won it 2X. It's reported in the mainstream news. And if according to google, one of the most searched athletes worldwide. Cos he was the 1st Asian male to win mens singles OG Gold.
As was Shen/Zhao when they won pairs Gold in 2010.

And because of that, spark interest abt figure skating in Asia. Why did you think I started following FS when I'm from a non FS country? Cos of Shen/Zhao. And they had a long career.

For those of us who started out from other sports, longevity of an athlete creates a following of that athlete till retirement.
If not, how else we know who is Alexandria Raisman, Simone Biles, Aliya Mustafina of gymnastics. And Guo Jing Jing, Wu Min Xia, Chen Ruo Lin of diving.

The question I debated was „is he known to the general public outside of Japan“?
I agree he’s the most famous figure skater in the world, but being known to the general public is a slightly different matter.
Usain Bolt is very well known, so is Ronaldo, Messi, Michael Phelps or Roger Federer. An average person in majority of countries will know who that is.
But as big of a skating rockstar Yuzuru is, he isn’t quite at that level of *international* fame, don’t you think? Even if he wins 4 Olympic golds, that would barely change.
It’s just not that global of a sport, let’s be real.
Winter sports are only popular in certain countries, summer Olympics get way more attention globally.
Outside of Russia and Japan people have no idea who Plushenko is either, and Evgenii has medals from 4 Olympics.

I mean, people will know and be attracted to stories of skaters and their medals, but it’s not only about the time they spend in sports.

As if longevity is the sole matter of importance to popularizing the sport, we can also argue, who’s more popular Nicole Schott or Tara Lipinski?
You know, Nicole has a much longer career, and yet, Tara is realistically more famous although she retired at 15.

Saying having a long career in the sport like FS is a sole factor of making it popular, is a little silly to me.
What people actually mean is „you have to have a long career AND you have to keep winning during your career“.
Skating through several Olympic cycles while not winning is easier (than skating AND medaling during that whole time), and frankly ... it does nothing for the sport... I mean, I’m not sure Sergej Voronov is nearly as known in Russia as Yuilia Lipnitskaya.

Winning through 2 Olympic cycles is extremely rare, simply because no one can hang on to the top much longer than that, and Yuzuru is a pretty unique case in general.
Yuzuru is the most famous figure skater, because he’s the only one like that, and how he’s able to push himself is pretty amazing, but not something one can expect from other single skating athletes.

P.s. Unrelated, but I’ve met Shen/Zhao and Tong/Pang in real life pre Olympics, they are very nice.

 

[Lzbee]

As for Yuzuru, there was no doubt here about his popularity, japanese middle age women (and not just japanese) love him. Though, the discussion was about ladies and we are matching ladies with ladies, because allegedly ladies like Alina are less popular than other ladies (though no exaple given). And I'm pretty convinced that when I will go through average european country, I will much more likely meet someone who knows e.g. Alina than probably any other active lady (and the only ones that could threaten her would be probably russian ladies as well). Or your statement is somehow proving that e.g. Loena Hendrickx or Nicole Schott would be more known to the people?

And again, as for Japan, Yuzu is of course known much more than Alina, but he is known more than anybody else incl. their own ladies. But if you compare ladies with ladies, than Alina is winning.

No my statement was in relation to the comments in this thread insisting that Alina and Sasha are more popular than any skater right now, including Yuzuru.

If we're talking about active ladies then I'd say Evgenia could rival Alina, if not for her achievements as a skater then for her appeal to allow Russian athletes at the Olympics (although general public may only know her by this act and not by name). Gracie Gold is still competing too. If we include non-active ladies, there are a few more that come mind. Yuna Kim is still very popular. Michelle Kwan is a household name. Tonya Harding has had a boost in notoriety from the film, although that's not the same as popularity. For Europe, Carolina Kostner is probably the name you should be asking after.

 

[el henry]

Outside of Japan and Russia.

Outside of figure skating fandom.

Yuzuru Hanyu is more well known than any ladies skater. By a country mile. Is he as well known as Usain Bolt, of course not

But I would wager at least 1% of the general public outside Japan and Russia may recognize him. And whatever that number is, it is ten times the number of persons outside Japan and Russia in the general public who would recognize Alina, and 1000 times the number of people who would recognize Sasha. Those are the comparisons that were originally made.

 

[eaglehelang]

Actually yes, unless you are not desperately covering ears and eyes like a child. One thing is that while claiming you are not disrespectful you were terribly disrespectful not only to the skaters but to the world if "European & North American countries" are just "maybe". But still you are either not following figure skating or you are just lying.

Why Japan broadcasted russian nationals? Why Japanese are making at least one reportage from Khrustanyi per month? Why they were inviting 4A to Japan directly sfter end of the last season for shows and not just the shows on the ice?

Why Alina has a "friend" in japanese PM? Why they made Alina face of their top cosmetics branch or made her being famous anime character? Why they were directly flying to her after Alina's announcement to be assured that is not retiring? Why Alina's name is one of the most searched in the japanese internet? Those are representants of "general public", in fact the public that likes figure skating the most.

Like it or not, those are the skaters that bring attention of the vieweres. Not some hypothetical "hugely artistic adult ladies" who just don't exist among active athetes (nobody ever named one when was blindly attacking russian ladies like you), but Alina, Shasha, Anna, Aliona.

Not that I'm measuring sport by the amount of views but if this question was brought here, than I say that old time lovers are huge minority. I'm saying this plainly because they, including you, show absolute disrespect to those athletes who do not fit their ideal and to those who like them.

Between Yuzuru Hanyu & Alina Zagitova, Yuzuru is definitely more well known in Asia, the whole of Asia region does not only comprise of Japan.
And if according to Olympic Channel, the most popular athlete.
After Yuzuru, it's Nathan Chen, though it seems to be more fans from China.

Outside of Japan, as far as I know Zagitova is not the face of the cosmetics brand she's representing. Yuzuru is the one they're using as the face of Kose. Kose billboards featuring Yuzuru have been seen in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore. In China, he is the face of Citizen.

All the info & news you stated on Zagitova, it is not reported in non Japanese news.
Yuzuru was the headliner of 2018 Olympics figure skating news, literally. Next was Savchenko/Bruno's win in pairs.
Zagitova's name was mentioned yes, in the list of winners.

Yuzuru being more famous in Asia is logical, the affinity to the fact he's Asian, in fact the only Asian country OG Gold Medalist for 2018. Figure skating has been long regarded as a western sport, for an Asian to win it its wow.

Similarly for Asian dominated sports. When Carolina Martin from Spain won 2016 OG Gold in badminton women's singles it's wow. If a China player had won, it's expected, we might not remember her name next OG cycle.

 

[gkelly]

Outside of Japan and Russia.

Outside of figure skating fandom.

Yuzuru Hanyu is more well known than any ladies skater. By a country mile.

Than any current ladies' skater. There are probably some skaters from earlier eras who are still better known among the general public. Especially among older demographics. And especially in their own home countries. I'd guess Sonja Henie and Katarina Witt might have the widest name recognition worldwide. (And Tonya Harding for other reasons.)

Within the US, which is my immediate frame of reference, I could probably name at least 5 retired American ladies who would have wider name recognition than any current competitor from Russia, Japan, or the US.

And for that matter, more members of the American general public would be aware of past American men's skaters, and probably Nathan Chen, than Hanyu or, e.g., Plushenko. Most Americans probably have a hard time remembering Japanese and Russian names. Which is why they might not remember

Active skating fans who frequent online discussions about skating at Golden Skate and elsewhere would have very different preferences from casual fans or Olympics-only fans.

As you say, for those outside skating fandom, the most well-known skaters will be those who made an impact at the Olympics, usually by medaling, and managed to keep their names in the public discourse afterward, such that anyone who enters "skating fandom" or starts paying attention to commentary will

It's hard to measure recognition anecdotally. And of course recognition is not the same thing as popularity, although it's hard to be popular if people don't know who are.

How should popularity be measured? How should it be defined? Among which demographic groups?

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well Yuzu recently made Google's most searched list for... this year, I think? Not sure... and as a result his image pops up every so often in Times Square in New York as part of a Google ad, so that's pretty huge!

As a biased fan, I also remember reading that once a Russian journalist or whatever went up to people in public with photos of Olympians and pretty much everyone recognised Plushy. I myself was shocked and pleased that my godmother knew who Plushy was, I don't think she's a huge skating fan.

But Alina Z is definitely big in Japan!

 

[flanker]

Actually no. Not in non FS countries, not in Asian countries. European & North American countries maybe. But then, these girls disappear after 2 to 3 years.

What is the message it's sending ? -> Make it by 18 or get out. That's shorter than gymnastics. In terms of promoting the sport globally as viable for young girls to participate in. Key word : global.

As for popularity of figure skating, as per what's reported in the news (not Golden Skate posts), it is the 2X OG champ from Japan that's generates the most interest.

That's how it is with other sports too. The top athletes are usually around at least 2 Olympic cycles(8 years)

Meanwhile whether its Yulia, Adelina, Zagitova or Aliona or Anna or Trusova, they are not around long enough for the general public to remember them. No disrespect to them but their faces are interchangeable, people cant tell which Russian girl won what.

Actually yes. One thing is that while claiming you are not disrespectful, but saying "European & North American countries" are just "maybe" isn't showing much respect. And you are just wrong.

Why Japan broadcasted russian nationals? Why Japanese are making at least one reportage from Khrustanyi per month? Why they were inviting 4A to Japan directly sfter end of the last season for shows and not just the shows on the ice?

Why Alina has a "friend" in japanese PM? Why they made Alina face of their top cosmetics branch or made her being famous anime character? Why they were directly flying to her after Alina's announcement to be assured that is not retiring? Why Alina's name is one of the most searched in the japanese internet? Those are representants of "general public", in fact the public that likes figure skating the most.

Like it or not, those are the skaters that bring attention of the vieweres. Not some hypothetical "hugely artistic adult ladies" who just don't exist among active athetes (nobody ever named one when was blindly attacking russian ladies like you), but Alina, Shasha, Anna, Aliona.

 

[flanker]

To support my point not by hypothetical people, but by the facts, just some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD6U4sdmOqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRrN5sk2YdM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKpcMLdIc4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JV4H_Elq5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7gbSVjlvJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4j_cPaJnjE

And for the rest, just three examples.

Nearly 7 million views of Sasha's gala performance from Skate Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ZSHKUSwyc

More than 1 million views of Anna's free skate from Skate America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M

And 650 views of Sasha's Skate Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejyxJfwdYrU

And those two are geoblocked videos, but still those are two most viewed videos of the whole GP series, incl. men.

Deny it as much as you want, but if numbers are what you are interrested in, than those young skaters are decesively winning in attracting attention.

 

[Mathman]

Then of course there is the all-time winner -- Starr Andrews' performance of Whip My Hair, with 55 million views on YouTube.

 

[Lzbee]

I would agree that the current youngsters are bringing a lot of attention to the sport with their trailblazing performances but I would disagree that they are the most popular skaters in history yet.

Some numbers to prove my point. The numbers of videos above 1m views:
* Yuna Kim has 29 videos
* Yuzuru Hanyu has 11 videos
* Evgeni Plushenko has 11 videos
* Evgenia Medvedeva has 5 videos
* Yulia Lipnitskaya has 5 videos
* Mirai Nagasu has 4 videos
* Mao Asada has 3 videos
* Alina Zagitova has 2 videos
* Gracie Gold has 2 videos
* Sasha Trusova has 1 video
* Anna Scherbakova has 1 video
* Alysa Liu has 1 video
* Eunsoo Lim has 1 video
* Young You has 1 video

Funnily enough, this would imply that Evgenia is the most popular active ladies skater. Her high view counts are related to her viral sailor moon exhibition though which shows that going viral produces skewed view counts (see also Plushenko's 6 sex bomb videos over 1m and Mirai Nagasu).

It also proves that quads bring attention due to going viral, eg. Alena has also been winning but while she has a few videos over 200k, she doesn't have any over 1m like Anna and Sasha. Note that Rika, Elizabet, Kamila and Liza also do not so it probably needs to be a physical feat that has not been done before.

Disclaimer:
This is only looking at videos with very high view counts, whereas over 200k is already very good for figure skating. Looking at that threshold should give a better idea of general popularity if anyone cares enough to do the data collection...

 

[jenaj]

Hanyu is definitely not known to the general public in America. Neither is Nathan Chen. I’m pretty sure the skaters with the most name recognition generally are Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill and Scott Hamilton. Oh, and Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan.

 

[lpt]

Some numbers to prove my point. The numbers of videos above 1m views:
* Alina Zagitova has 2 videos
* Sasha Trusova has 1 video

Zagitova has at least 7 videos. Trusova - 4. I don't know how you count.

 

[jenaj]

To support my point not by hypothetical people, but by the facts, just some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD6U4sdmOqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRrN5sk2YdM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKpcMLdIc4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JV4H_Elq5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7gbSVjlvJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4j_cPaJnjE

And for the rest, just three examples.

Nearly 7 million views of Sasha's gala performance from Skate Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ZSHKUSwyc

More than 1 million views of Anna's free skate from Skate America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M

And 650 views of Sasha's Skate Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejyxJfwdYrU

And those two are geoblocked videos, but still those are two most viewed videos of the whole GP series, incl. men.

Deny it as much as you want, but if numbers are what you are interrested in, than those young skaters are decesively winning in attracting attention.

If view count is the measure, this Russian skater must be the most popular of all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3c_xV78jFE&app=desktop

 

[flanker]

Another interresting data. Most popular skaters in China:
https://twitter.com/BlueFlame4YUZU/status/1212329022568292352

1. Yuzu, of course.
2. Boyang Jin. Also understandable, most succesful chinese man.
3./4. Sui/Han. Who would guess
5. Alina...

So, the pattern is pretty clear. Yuzu and local top skaters and then Alina of all the ladies. So, disrespectful suggesting how "nobody knows Alina" and that she means nothing to the sport (and similar with her team mates) is just wishful thinking of Boston Tea Party 1995.

 

[gkelly]

Question:
If I watch the same video on youtube 5 times, does that add 5 views to the view count?
If that is the case, then view count is not a very accurate measure of popularity, because the same fans will probably watch the same video many times, either just for enjoyment or to pull out details to criticize about the judging skating or about the skating (of skaters they don't prefer).

Also, it only tells you about the popularity of those skaters among fans who watch skating on youtube, or whatever other video posting service.

Geoblocking can also skew the view counts. Avid fans will find ways around that, but those are generally the same people who will watch the same video multiple times, so each new view doesn't represent a new viewer.

It tells nothing about old school fans who still watch primarily TV broadcasts (live or DVR'd etc.), or skating fans who prefer to watch whole competitions as live streams rather than rewatching and sharing individual performances.

Or attend competitions in person, although the total numbers there are much lower than video viewers.

If you wanted to come up with some kind of global Q rating for figure skaters, you'd have to find some way to combine measures such as general name (and maybe face/full body) recognition, general approval rating, view counts of individual videos, viewing numbers of full competition broadcasts, and TV ratings, relative to the availability and costs of such broadcasts/live streams in various parts of the world, corporate sponsorships in different markets and in different media platforms that attract different demographics, ticket sales for competitions and shows where individual skaters are appearing (especially if there is some way to know which skaters had the biggest effect on ticket sales), fan engagement in social media officially with the skater and indirectly about the skater, etc. etc.

No single measure will give a complete picture of worldwide popularity or which current skaters are most likely to attract new viewers from different potential viewing populations. But they can give snapshots of which skaters are most popular among a selected subset of existing fans. E.g., the fan forums on Golden Skate can give a good sense of which current skaters are most popular among current Golden Skate posters. A Japanese or Korean or Russian language forum would probably give a different picture.

 

[flanker]

If view count is the measure, this Russian skater must be the most popular of all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3c_xV78jFE&app=desktop

I didn't bring this topics here, it was the other side who claimed how insignificant young ladies are vs. "mature artistic ladies" are and how they bring attention out of the sport. I say it's complete nonsence. After all, nobody said who those alleged active mature artistic ladïes who should be the top of figure skating and who are so much more popular even are through the whole thread.

I say, the young ladies we are talking about are in the top both technically and artistically. There are some skaters who are on the same level of artistry (and if better, than definitely not significantly), but not the same level of technique. So, if an argument against them is that they are "killing" figure skating (for whatever reason), I say it's not true. You don't have to like them, but you shouldn't bash them. Maybe el henry says "I am proud that the members of Goldenskate would not be so sexist or ageist" but some users show pretty hars ageism against those young skaters if they make such claims about them killing the sport, about them being expendable and so on.