Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A

[FlattFan]

Here is what matters:
I downloaded the 2009 WTT video that was referenced above. Deffinately a recent competition, I pulled the video into Kinovea (A free version of dartfish) Using the time line in Kinovea I can see that Mao is in the air for 0.73 sec.

I too have seen Mao jump in person at practice sessions. She did a triple axel right in front of me while my elbows were on the boards. She was at least 18 inches off the ice. She was as tight as a pencil in the air, and when she landed there was barely a sound. It was truly and amazing jump.

You're my new hero.
I'd tremble and pee on the floor if she does a triple axel right in front of me.

 

[Bennett]

You're my new hero.
I'd tremble and pee on the floor if she does a triple axel right in front of me.

Many years ago, I once saw Midori Ito doing 3A in front of me at an ice show. The rotation was so slow that I thought it 2A!

I'd love to see Mao's, too! I remember a commentator at a junior GPF? event saying that Mao's 3A was so easy that it looked like a 2A. It has a different quality from Midori's in that it was a lot lighter and tighter in the air.

I feel that her current 3A is more powerful than the ones she did as a junior. I feel that her 3A looked more effortless as a junior. But her current one somehow looks bigger and higher to me. Or her bigger, taller body makes the jump look bigger and higher? Does she also rotate faster than before despite the bigger, taller body?

 

[Mathman]

Actually the rule reads "For camel, sit and layback positions, once the position has been established a clear increasing of speed will be considered a difficult variation."

I.e., it's really hard to accelerate while staying in the same position, so that's what gets the extra feature.

I am trying to think how someone can accelerate in camel position. I hardly ever see a lady even maintain speed. But some of the men do, and that is pretty cool right there!

I guess you would have to pump your body or arms somehow, like when you want to go higher on a swing, only sideways (?)

OT -- there are two devices that seem to defy the laws of physics that I have never been able to figure how how they work. One is a gyroscope and the other is a sailboat tacking against the wind. :scratch:

 

[FlattFan]

I feel that her current 3A is more powerful than the ones she did as a junior. I feel that her 3A looked more effortless as a junior. But her current one somehow looks bigger and higher to me. Or her bigger, taller body makes the jump look bigger and higher? Does she also rotate faster than before despite the bigger, taller body?

Her current 3A looks like Dhalsim

 

[gkelly]

I am trying to think how someone can accelerate in camel position. I hardly ever see a lady even maintain speed. But some of the men do, and that is pretty cool right there!

The obvious answer is by going into a donut position or other variation that decreases the distance between the center of the body and the furthest points.

 

[Mathman]

The obvious answer is by going into a donut position or other variation that decreases the distance between the center of the body and the furthest points.

But that does not get points for increasing speed in the same position, right?

 

[gkelly]

I think it does. The "First Aid" document for tech specialists says:

Increasing speed counts only in a basic position or while going in a basic position into its variation; it is not valid as a feature if the increase if the increase of speed happens while going from one basic position to another basic position.

"Basic" positions for most contexts are camel, sit, and upright.

Layback is a subset of upright that is distinguished from simple upright or other variations for some purposes and apparently including this feature as well.

 

[gsrossano]

Yes. If you start in a basic camel position and then go into a variation that causes a clear increase in speed, you get the feature. If the variation is a difficult variation you get two features (have to hold it for two rotations, of course), and then if you hold the difficult variation for at least 8 rotations you get three features.

 

[hurrah]

I hadn't checked this thread for a day and look how long it's become!! I just luv it.

Look, do you think it's possible that the journalist who wrote this article is incredibly inaccurate? He claims : '１６３センチの浅田は中学１年時と比較して身長が約２０センチ伸びている。 (translation: The 163-centimeter Asada is 20-centimeters taller than when she was in 7th grade)'. We know that this cannot be true. She cannot have grown that much. So if this journalist can make such an obvious mistake, then it may be that when he said: '滞空時間は中学１年時の０秒５５に比べて０秒１短い ([Asada's] hang-time in the air is 0.1 second shorter now compared to 0.55 second when she was 15-years old)', quoting Ikegami, the journalist was actually misquoting Ikegami?

It seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that Ikegami said that Asada's rotation time (and not the total hang-time in the air) is now 0.45 as compared to 0.55 when she was younger. This is what I surmise as I have seen with my eyes and also heard television commentators (I think it was Nicky in Britain) talk about how Mao has a beautiful delay in the air.

Or it could be that the whole thing is totally inaccurate from beginning to end!!

 

[gfskater]

It seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that Ikegami said that Asada's rotation time (and not the total hang-time in the air) is now 0.45 as compared to 0.55 when she was younger. This is what I surmise as I have seen with my eyes and also heard television commentators (I think it was Nicky in Britain) talk about how Mao has a beautiful delay in the air.

Maybe you have something here. I looked at several other videos for 2008/2009 last night and they are all higher than 10". I did not download and disect them as I did 2009 WTT but they look similar. Look at it this way. Her skate is 10" long and she is about 2-2.5 sktates off the ice. Maybe we could have a new measurement system "She jumepd 2.5 skates"

I created four slow motion videos of different triple axels on you tube. You can see that Harding and Ito are higher but not as tight in the air. Ito even has a wrap. Without that amazing height she would never make it around. Harding is almost as high as the boards. This is the point of the article which makes sense. People interpreting Mao’s jump height as 10 inches took away from the original point. You either need fast rotation or height. It seems that most skaters today use rotation. I often here Dick Button say. “Where’s the jump in that jump!” but not for Mao. I think he even comment, this year, "now that is a jump" for Mao.

I put the videos into a playlist here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoFigureSkating#grid/user/7341628836925595

Enjoy! They are all amazing!

 

[janetfan]

Maybe you have something here. I looked at several other videos for 2008/2009 last night and they are all higher than 10". I did not download and disect them as I did 2009 WTT but they look similar. Look at it this way. Her skate is 10" long and she is about 2-2.5 sktates off the ice. Maybe we could have a new measurement system "She jumepd 2.5 skates"

I created four slow motion videos of different triple axels on you tube. You can see that Harding and Ito are higher but not as tight in the air. Ito even has a wrap. Without that amazing height she would never make it around. Harding is almost as high as the boards. This is the point of the article which makes sense. People interpreting Mao’s jump height as 10 inches took away from the original point. You either need fast rotation or height. It seems that most skaters today use rotation. I often here Dick Button say. “Where’s the jump in that jump!” but not for Mao. I think he even comment, this year, "now that is a jump" for Mao.

I put the videos into a playlist here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoFigureSkating#grid/user/7341628836925595

Enjoy! They are all amazing!

Thanks, I enjoyed the clips. Harding seems to jump the highest - but I am just using my eyes to make that call.

It is also very obvious that Mao is jumping much higher than 10 inches,,,,,,,
again, not a scientific measure and just my perception with a little common sense thrown in.

But it is true the camera angle can be deceptive so my comments are a fans comments and not expert opinion.

Yukari's jump seems the least impressive. Not sure why - is it pre-rotated and also ur'ed? It is not a big looking jump like the others....again, it could be the camera angle.

 

[silverlake22]

Yukari's jump seems the least impressive. Not sure why - is it pre-rotated and also ur'ed? It is not a big looking jump like the others....again, it could be the camera angle.

Yukari is tiny, 5'1", so her jumps probably get the least height of all the lady skaters out there because she is one of the smallest. Her 3a probably rotates very quickly and that is why she can sometimes land them. Mao was the same height as Yukari when she was 14 and Mao's 3a looked different then.

Also, if Mao's 3a gets 25 inches off the ground, does this mean that Caroline Zhang's seemingly tiny tiny jumps get about 15 or 20 inches off the ground? To me they look like 5 inches

 

[Bennett]

Regarding Mao's growth, I feel that it may be possible that Mao has grown 20 cm since she was in the first grade of the junior high (12-13 yrs old) as it is said in the article. She looks so petite here.

2003-2004 season (13 yrs old: 1st grade in the junior high school)
Japanese Nationals 2003
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVxwDIW-qzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSiZfh8S2Cw&NR=1

Clips from the 2002-2003 season (12 yrs old: 6th grade in the elementary school)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEyU1Baaaeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJ9brFg4FU

 

[silverlake22]

Regarding Mao's growth, I feel that it may be possible that Mao has grown 20 cm since she was in the first grade of the junior high (12-13 yrs old) as it is said in the article. She looks so petite here.

2003-2004 season (13 yrs old: 1st grade in the junior high school)
Japanese Nationals 2003
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVxwDIW-qzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSiZfh8S2Cw&NR=1

Clips from the 2002-2003 season (12 yrs old: 6th grade in the elementary school)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEyU1Baaaeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJ9brFg4FU

That actually looks about right. 20 cm is almost 8 inches. If she's around 5'4" now that would mean she was 4'8" when she was 13. Mirai grew more than that in 3 years, she won jr. nationals when she was 13 and 4'7" and now she's 16 and 164 cm (almost 5'5") so that's more like 10 inches and Mao is three years older than Mirai and may have grown slightly since she was 16.

 

[Mathman]

Here is Ludmila Nelidina's triple Axel from 2002 Skate America (at 0.56).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsUAJLe16RM

 

[gfskater]

How about Mao's 3A just one week ago?

I downloaded and reviewed Mao's 3A from Japanese Nationals just last week. She was in the air for 0.76 sec. Once again, she performs a beautiful triple axel. What an air position! And she does it right smack in front of the judges.

I think Mao is the third type of skater that is not super high, not real low, but right in the middle 20-26 inches. A pretty good place to be. And let's not forget the rest of her skating, spins, footwork, interpretation, skating skills. She is one of the few skaters that I enjoy every minute of her program. She picks great music too.

I am sure there is a reason my daughter's jump coach at UD told her to look at videos of Moa's 3A. He wants her to take off like Mao and especially look like Mao in the air. That is why I started creating the slow motion videos. Luddy has a great eye and I am always amazed at the progress he makes at each session with my daughter.

Here is Mao at nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1rSESYzgA

 

[silverlake22]

I downloaded and reviewed Mao's 3A from Japanese Nationals just last week. She was in the air for 0.76 sec. Once again, she performs a beautiful triple axel. What an air position! And she does it right smack in front of the judges.

Yeah, her 3a is impressive. I just realized though that Oda and Takahashi are only 1 inch taller than Mao....there 3a s are HUGE, bigger than Evan's even though he's almost a foot taller than both of them :agree:

 

[gsrossano]

I downloaded and reviewed Mao's 3A from Japanese Nationals just last week. She was in the air for 0.76 sec.

Seems to me this says Mao is NOT a skater who uses rotation to make up for a lack of height -- at least by current standards.

With your two examples (thank you so much for providing real numbers that mean something) she is about 3/4 second in the air for these jumps, about 2 feet off the ice, and 4.7 rotations per second.

This is pretty much top end for ladies today doing any of the triples. Few jump higher than 0.75 seconds. And 4 1/2 rotations per second is not fast by my standards of characterizing jump performance. By my tracking of what skaters do today, 6 or more per second is fast, while 4-5 is typical. Maybe she does not jump quite as high as a few years ago and has to rotate a little faster than she used to, but what she is doing now is not low and fast. It is reasonably high and typical rotation speed.

 

[FlattFan]

I notice people like to compare Mao's 3A with Evan's 3A. IMO, they are nothing alike. Evan's 3A looks like work. Every time he lands a 3A, I fear for his foot. It looks like he's in pain, especially in HD.
Mao's 3A is so light. It's spectacular every single time.

 

[FlattFan]

This is pretty much top end for ladies today doing any of the triples. Few jump higher than 0.75 seconds. And 4 1/2 rotations per second is not fast by my standards of characterizing jump performance. By my tracking of what skaters do today, 6 or more per second is fast, while 4-5 is typical. Maybe she does not jump quite as high as a few years ago and has to rotate a little faster than she used to, but what she is doing now is not low and fast. It is reasonably high and typical rotation speed.

I thought Mao has the fastest rotation for the top 10 ladies. Who can rotate faster than her? Miki doesn't look faster, even when she does quads.
Can you give an example of someone doing 6 or more rev per sec? That is just way too fast.