Spins in figure skating compared to ballet

[Laid-Back Enthusiast]

Hi all, I was sitting and wondering if pirouette technique for ballet is beneficial for learning to spin on ice. I guess it has to help with ankle and feet strength, as well as finding your center, but is it really effective? what are the differences regarding forces and muscles used to execute pirouettes in ballet and figure skating, and are there pros and cons to learning ballet pirouettes in order to spin on ice? I'm sure you are exactly the crowd to ask

 

[treblemakerem]

Ballet is very helpful for skating to build strength and flexibility and body control. As for spinning technique though, it is quite different. In ballet you use your turnout all the time but for skating you want to close your hips or it will slow you down so I’m not sure how helpful it is. You also spot in ballet which you definitely don’t want to do on ice.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Not very similar IMO (I've done ballet since young but took up skating as a young adult).

The balance point is completely different in ballet, much further forward on the ball of the pointed foot (or toe if en pointe). In skating you are balancing on a gently flexed foot. The sweet spot for spinning is also under the ball but it's possible to rock off it by accident mid-spin, or spin without being completely centred (in which case you travel), which doesn't happen in ballet where loss of balance simply causes you to fall out of the pirouette.

Pirouette entry is also very different in ballet, where the impetus is provided by plié followed by relevé. It's more of a jumping motion. There are also piqué turns where you step onto a pointed foot but they have even less similarity to skating.
Spin entries in skating require you to tighten a spiraling edge and then straighten to shift weight into the sweet spot without locking the knee completely straight. Both these concepts are alien to ballet.

Positions-wise there are no laybacks in ballet (only attitude turns with the body upright) because doing a layback requires the hips to be pushed forward. It's not possible to balance like that on a completely plantarflexed foot. No sit or camel positions similarly, because they need a dorsiflexed supporting foot to balance properly (camels were inspired by arabesque turns but the latter require a more upright upper body). Gymnastics includes turns akin to Biellman and I-spins but these are only made possible balance-wise by grabbing the foot, which ballet doesn't permit.

Where ballet turns might help is learning to keep the shoulders/arms/hips level and turning in one piece, but this is common to all rotational activities and could probably be trained just as well with an off-ice spinner.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

No.

 

[Elija]

IMO, the hardest part with spinning on ice is getting the entrance exactly right - and this is something you can’t replicate off ice. If the entrance is good, the spin is relatively easy. Ballet can help with strength and control and flexibility which is overall beneficial to skating, but I can’t see how pirouettes in ballet would be specifically helpful to spinning in any way.

 

[Arwen17]

I do both skating and ballet. You "spin" in skating and you "turn" in ballet. They are nothing alike (as other people have already described very well) and I think those words also show the difference. In skating, you are spinning really fast, hundreds of revolutions, it's like spinning yourself as fast as possible on an office chair. You cannot spot and should not spot because it's so fast.
In ballet, you are doing very controlled turns. Even just doing one revolution can take years to master well enough that you can move on to a double revolution.
Most beginning skaters get 2-3 revolutions in their spins immediately, and then have to work hard for 4-6 or more revolutions.
Most beginning ballet students struggle with just one revolution. We spend a long time just doing quarter turns and half turns before trying one revolution. Double turns only happen once you're single turn is quite solid. Triple turns and above can be really difficult and means you've been doing ballet for years and years. The main difficulty is because in ballet you have to stay turned out. Trying to do turns while holding your turnout is really hard. A "jazz" turn is super easy because you don't have to give a flying fig about turnout and turn everything in. "Jazz" turns are really easy. Ballet turns are really hard.

As someone who does both, I have to try to keep the "spotting" mode ON/OFF when it comes to turns in ballet or twizzles on the ice. Spinning on the ice is too different from ballet and I never feel the urge to spot. But twizzles are much more like ballet turns, slow and controlled, so I sometimes struggle not to spot on twizzles. And then when I get into ballet class, I have to remember to spot, because skating has given me the instinct to turn without spotting.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

The balance point is completely different in ballet, much further forward on the ball of the pointed foot (or toe if en pointe). In skating you are balancing on a gently flexed foot.

This is exactly right, and exactly why spins were my nemesis when I first started skating. I haven't studied ballet, but I've done years of musical theatre-style dance, and it took me a while to get out of the habit of going almost up onto my toe pick when trying to get into a one-foot spin. Those falls hurt!

 

[iceskating21]

Agree. My skater is a ballet competitor too. She says they are different. But generally, ballet helps skating in many ways, like body coordination, stretch, posture, and etc.

 

[La Versaillaise]

Pirouettes might not be transposed but fouettés without turning are quite fun on the ice.

 

[Arwen17]

Pirouettes might not be transposed but fouettés without turning are quite fun on the ice.

what?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

what?

Maybe they mean the half/quarter turn fouetté (e.g. in adage or Italian fouette)? I'm just guessing that it could be a bracket or 3-turn with the leg held out artistically...

 

[gliese]

Maybe they mean the half/quarter turn fouetté (e.g. in adage or Italian fouette)? I'm just guessing that it could be a bracket or 3-turn with the leg held out artistically...

I was thinking twizzles with a moving leg in the fouette motion when I read that. But that doesn't include the "without turning" bit.