Sweet Spot / Ball of foot

[earthmover]

So, using the instructions here it tells me the where the sweet spot starts - where the long rocker changes to the spin rocker - should be close to the ball of the foot and where it bends. Question is, where exactly should the spin rocker start in relation to the ball of the foot? I'm confused as to where this is on the foot. If someone could highlight on this drawing, would be great. Foot Drawing

 

[jf12]

It's going to be slightly different on every blade - that is why there's an adjustment period when you get a new model of blades.

 

[earthmover]

I am aware. Hence I need some guidance in how the start of the spin rocker should relate to the ball of the foot. I'm unsure if the spin rocker should start at the point where the toes meet the foot (the crease), and the sweet spot covers the area below the toes. Or should the spin rocker start further back at the base of the ball of foot and end at the toes? The ball of the foot is a pretty big area, and is curved, so I don't know how this translates to a 2 dimensional (ish) blade.

 

[jf12]

Hang on, not trying to be snarky but have you ever seen a pair of skates? What are you actually trying to figure out- are you having issues spinning? The area from the toe crease forward is completely unusable due to the position of the toe picks. To describe how spinning feels, the sweet spot when spinning is as forward as you can get on the blade without any toe picks scraping the ice at all, or depending on the spin a very light scrape of the bottom toe pick.

 

[tstop4me]

Hang on, not trying to be snarky but have you ever seen a pair of skates? What are you actually trying to figure out- are you having issues spinning? The area from the toe crease forward is completely unusable due to the position of the toe picks. To describe how spinning feels, the sweet spot when spinning is as forward as you can get on the blade without any toe picks scraping the ice at all, or depending on the spin a very light scrape of the bottom toe pick.

I don't think you've understood the OP's question. The question is not where the sweet spot of the blade is, but where the sweet spot of the blade should be placed with respect to the ball of the foot: that is, how far forward/backward the blade should be mounted along the boot.

 

[tstop4me]

I am aware. Hence I need some guidance in how the start of the spin rocker should relate to the ball of the foot. I'm unsure if the spin rocker should start at the point where the toes meet the foot (the crease), and the sweet spot covers the area below the toes. Or should the spin rocker start further back at the base of the ball of foot and end at the toes? The ball of the foot is a pretty big area, and is curved, so I don't know how this translates to a 2 dimensional (ish) blade.

I think the answer depends on your boot, in particular the heel pitch. In my own case, the skate tech set the original mount. Then I moved the blade back and forth several times until I found the alignment that worked best for me. Note: you can't go just by the outside of the boots, because some boots have substantially pitched insoles.

 

[jf12]

Yes, I agree it can be shifted based on boots and preference by like 1/4 inch max, but the sweet spot will never be in front of the toe crease - blades wouldn't even fit on a skating boot that way. I think that is why I was confused.

 

[earthmover]

So take a look at these two images.
The first is on the Coronation Ace.
The second is the Gold Seal.
Which is correct?

 

[vlaurend]

So take a look at these two images.
The first is on the Coronation Ace.
The second is the Gold Seal.
Which is correct?

Earthmover, I think you just rhetorically answered your own question. Different blades have different rocker shapes, and the result is that the spinning rocker is a little farther forward on some blades than others. MK Gold Star and Wilson Gold Seal have a spinning rocker that is fuller/rounder with the sweet spot farther forward, while MK Phantom and Wilson Pattern 99 have a spinning rocker that is more gradual, resulting in a sweet spot that is a little farther back. Which rocker shape you prefer will depend on your own balance point, the shape of your foot (some people's toes are longer than others) and how each rocker shape affects the timing and technique on your edge jump takeoffs. According to the link you posted, the Coronation Ace sweet spot is farther back than that of the Gold Seal, and that's probably why skaters are often encouraged to go from Coronation Ace blades to Pattern 99 blades rather than Gold Seals. Less of an adjustment.

 

[earthmover]

Yeah, sorry, don't think I was being clear. I understand different blades have different profiles/rockers, etc. My question is, to help me choose the appropriate blade. Where should the pressure point be when people talk about spinning on the balls of the feet? Because it's quite a substantial area. In other words, where on the foot should I spin? (If you can highlight on a picture, it would help a lot).

 

[vlaurend]

P.S. Even more important than the rocker profile of your blades is the fit of your boots. If your boots are longer than they should be, the sweet spot of your blade will end up too far forward.

 

[vlaurend]

Where is your weight when you spin on a wooden floor in socks? That is probably your best indication. As for where your pressure point should be on different blades, how will you even have an opportunity to test the different blades to find out where that point is? You'd have to have each pair of blades mounted to your boots and then somehow be able to return the pair you don't want. What blades are you using now?

 

[earthmover]

That's starting to make sense. Here's my test on spinning with socks on the floor. I'm using MK Pro blades, which are too far forward I think. I have references for the main mk/john wilson blades, and after I figure how my foot correlates to spinning, I can choose the appropriate spin rocker/blade. Thanks

 

[figureskaterdude]

Yeah, sorry, don't think I was being clear. I understand different blades have different profiles/rockers, etc. My question is, to help me choose the appropriate blade. Where should the pressure point be when people talk about spinning on the balls of the feet? Because it's quite a substantial area. In other words, where on the foot should I spin? (If you can highlight on a picture, it would help a lot).

Next time you step on the ice in a pair of skates, rental or otherwise, stand still and place your toe pick from one of your feet gently in the ice. Rock your foot back till the very bottom pick of the entire toe rake is the only thing pressing against the ice. Then slowly move your foot back even a bit further until the toe pick just barley isn't contacting the ice. This is the general location of the "sweet" spot on pretty much every blade. It should feel very slick with little to no friction if you move your foot side to side. How that spot translate directly to where you are pressing through your foot will vary person to person.

Keep in mind that you can still do a successful spin even if you miss this "sweet" spot. Your blades will just cause more friction and your spin will be slower, or you may travel more. Also keep in mind that you will need to put pressure at different points on your foot depending on what spin you are doing. Upright vs sit spin etc.

 

[vlaurend]

That's starting to make sense. Here's my test on spinning with socks on the floor. I'm using MK Pro blades, which are too far forward I think. I have references for the main mk/john wilson blades, and after I figure how my foot correlates to spinning, I can choose the appropriate spin rocker/blade. Thanks

OK, this is good information. The spot where you say you are spinning in socks on the floor looks exactly right. So here are the next questions for you:
1. What makes you think the sweet spot on your MK Pro blades is too far forward?
2. Are your MK Pro blades new? If not, how many sharpenings have they had, and has the rocker profile changed as a result?
3. What blades you had before the MK Pros and how many sharpenings had those blades had when you switched to the MK Pros?
It's important to understand that the difference in rocker profile between a used blade and a new blade of the exact same model can be just as great as the difference between two different blade models. You need to always do apple-to-apple comparisons.

 

[earthmover]

1. What makes you think the sweet spot on your MK Pro blades is too far forward?
2. Are your MK Pro blades new? If not, how many sharpenings have they had, and has the rocker profile changed as a result?
3. What blades you had before the MK Pros and how many sharpenings had those blades had when you switched to the MK Pros?
It's important to understand that the difference in rocker profile between a used blade and a new blade of the exact same model can be just as great as the difference between two different blade models. You need to always do apple-to-apple comparisons.

1. If you look at the earlier comparison of a Gold Seal, which has the same profile, the spin rocker feels closer to the toes than the ball of foot. And as figureskaterdude says, I can still spin on them, but not as well.
2. New blades, great sharpening.
3. I switched from an Ultima IV with its 8' rocker to a new 7' rocker which should help with spins.
I guess the takeaway from this is that I'm better suited to the Aces/Pattern 99 and similar, whereas (I think?) the MK Pro/Gold Seals are better suited to those with shorter toes?

 

[vlaurend]

To me, the takeaway is that there is always an adjustment when you get brand new blades, and there's twice as much of an adjustment when you also change to a blade with a different rocker profile. It's a common misconception that 7' rocker blades are better for spinning because they are rounder (overall) than 8' rocker blades. However, what makes a blade good for spinning is the rocker profile, i.e., the shape of the rocker at the front half of the blade. So if you switched to a 7' rocker blade for better spins, you were doing it to get a rounder rocker and that is what you *coincidentally* ended up getting by choosing this particular blade. The MK Pro, MK Gold Star and Wilson Gold Seal have basically the same rocker profile, in spite of the fact that the MKs have a 7' radius overall and the Gold Seal has an 8' radius overall. I started with the MK Pro, then went to the Gold Star, then the Gold Seal and had minimal adjustment as a result.

The MK Professional is a high quality blade and good for spinning. It's just that you need to adjust to (a) having a new blade with its original round rocker that hasn't been flattened from sharpenings, and (b) a slightly rounder rocker right behind the toepick, which puts the sweet spot farther forward than you're used to. The last time I got new blades I got the exact same blades I always get (Gold Seal) but it still took about 2 weeks before my feet really learned where the new sweet spot was on my spins. I also had to point my toes harder on jump takeoffs to make sure I rolled all the way up to the pick and I had to consciously push my heel down when landing a jump because the rocker was so round that it didn't go down as quickly on its own. This is just the normal adjustment process when you get new blades.

 

[annetter]

So, using the instructions here it tells me the where the sweet spot starts - where the long rocker changes to the spin rocker - should be close to the ball of the foot and where it bends. Question is, where exactly should the spin rocker start in relation to the ball of the foot? I'm confused as to where this is on the foot. If someone could highlight on this drawing, would be great. Foot Drawing

I am interested in information about the position of the spin rocker relative to the ball of the foot.
I am interested in the MK Professional curved rocker profile and blade length - compared to Coronation Ace - but concerned that it might be less suitable for me, for spinning, due to my long toes.

P.S. I got Coronation Ace, as an adult beginner, but have not tried it yet - nor MK Professional.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I am interested in information about the position of the spin rocker relative to the ball of the foot.
I am interested in the MK Professional curved rocker profile and blade length - compared to Coronation Ace - but concerned that it might be less suitable for me, for spinning, due to my long toes.

The spin rocker should be positioned in line with the ball of your foot and/or towards the back of it.