Teenage Ladies Olympic Champions

[OwenEvans]

Hi, OwenEvans. I can't agree with your conclusion that the ISU is "stupid" for allowing eligible skaters to make money while at the same time keeping the skaters under the thumb of the ISU in terms of Olympic eligibility. IMO this was brilliancy on the part of Cinquanta and his ISU cronies. In one stroke they killed off professional skating and took control of the whole shebang.

Hi Mathman, I didn't mean the ISU was "stupid" for above, I just meant "stupid" for many and varied reasons. But your reasoning is correct I think and that is why there is no "amateur" status anymore, just "eligible". Except in sanctioned events, (and how many pro-ams have there been lately??), pros can't step on the ice with eligibles, just like always, so what is the difference, except semantics?. A skater still has to turn professional to be able to have total control over their career. This is the same with all of the Olympic sports that haven't openly embraced participation by professional athletes such as tennis and basketball. Athletics was the purest of pure amateur sports, but now they have the Golden League, gymnastics has its Grand Prix events and these are very recent changes to those sports, effectively making pros redundant and keeping the talent within the sport for longer and what is even more important, effectively under the control of the governing bodies.

Albright, Heiss, Djikstra, Schuba and even Flemming all were in a different era. Shows were the thing to do after the OGM

Joe, then what about Kristi? Why didn't she stay eligible? Of course, it is entirely possible no-one wanted to keep practicing/performing to eligible standards but methinks it really is a combination of above and also "I've got the OGM, now I can make some $$$". I think it especially telling that Kristi did not reapply for eligibility to come back for 94 when she was probably skating better than 92 and at the very least would certainly have been a top contender, Can anyone tell me if Yags has just "retired" from eligible skating or has he officially gone professional? If it is the latter, then why? Is it because if he is eligible, he can't make $$$ as and when he would like, he still has to bow to the Russian Federation? If that is so, then it seems like the old "amateur" standards have just been dressed in new clothes in the current "eligble" world.

As for Kat Witt, her popularity after 1984 was such that she could have signed a lucrative ice contract and defected. She herself said that she skated for the titles and medals and her record speaks for itself.

Soogar, you make defecting from your country sound like it's as easy as going to the movies. Kat was a STAR in the GDR - she would have wanted for nothing. I'm sure she didn't return home after an Olympics or Worlds to be treated with indifference! There was no reason to leave as she was provided everything and certainly would have enjoyed a lifestyle most of her countrymen could only dream of. And also, put yourself into her shoes if that were to be the case - could you leave your homeland, your family, your everything so easily? I think Martina Navratilova explained the downside of defecting quite eloquently in her autobiography as did Jaroslav Drobny (another Czech tennis star, of the 40s and 50s who defected in the late 40s) in his.

Sorry everyone, I'm raving again. Please understand I am not arguing - just discussing!

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

I think that the number of teenage potential is rising big time. I mean you got: Miki Ando, Cynthia Phaneuf, Kimmie Meissner, Alissa Czisny, Carolina Kostner, Yukina Ota.......just to name a few who have potential down the road. Then you got the veterans like: Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Shizuka Arakawa, Irina Slutskaya. So it will be a greatt battle for the title in 2006. Although, I think with the new judging system, I think Michelle Kwan has a better chance of winning because of her superb artistry, whereas as Sasha Cohen is usually plagued with inconsistency.

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I agree with your basic position that nowadays "going pro" is a euphemism for being put out to pasture as an old has-been. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons figure skating revenue is down throughout the industry. As in any endeavor, in a shrinking market the big names get the lion’s share and everyone else has to scramble to make ends meet. Michelle’s rich. Why? Fannies in seats.

Owen, about Kristi , I have read (possibly in her book Dummies on Ice (?) ) that after the 1992 Olympic season she sat down with her financial advisor (her uncle) and they went over all the possibilities for making money in the future. They concluded that she could make about the same amount by continuing in amateur skating for two more years or by joining the pro ranks immediately. I think what tipped the ballance was just that she had had enough of the grueling training schedule and the competitive pressure.

IIRC she first signed with Brian Boitano’s tour. But then Scott Hamilton sat down with his financial advisors (this is in Scott’s book, Landing It, I believe) and they told him, Scott, SOI is losing steam, we’ve got to get Kristi. So Scott said, oh, yeah, we need to sign up some of the recent crop of Olympians -- Petrenko, Wiley, Kristi, Jenny Meno... To which the money people said, Scott, you’re not listening. We’ve got to get Kristi.

So, IIRC, SOI had to buy out the Boitano-Witt tour altogether in order to get Kristi’s contract.

About Alexei Yagudin, I believe he has officially “gone pro” and has given up his Olympic eligibility. This was not really his choice. It was forced upon him by ever-worsening hip problems. In his case, I don’t think “being under the thumb” of the Russian skating federation was a factor, because he never paid any attention to them anyway. Strange as it seems, Yagudin was never Russian champion. He always felt like the Russian federation favored Plushenko over him and didn’t give him much support.

Alexei, as a four-time world champion and Olympic gold medallist, has lots of opportunities to make money. Still, a couple of years ago he was the most popular skater in the world with thousands of adoring fans. (See the thread in the Voting Booth about the Most Popular Skater Worldwide, LOL, where Kwan fans are fighting it out with Alexei fans.) Now -- I don’t know -- is he already starting to fall off the radar?

Here is Alexei coaching his protege Andrei Griazev at Junior Worlds last year.

http://www.jgpfinal2003.se/150_5023.JPG
http://www.jgpfinal2003.se/150_5037.JPG
http://www.jgpfinal2003.se/150_5036.JPG

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Owen - on why Kristi didn't stay elligible. Again it's that different era I mentioned.

Fleming and let's go up as far as Annette Poetsch. It was still shows or coach. The winner of the Olys got a ticket to join any travelling ice show there was at the time. they also got some accoutrements such as writing a biography (from birth to 16), a coloring book, and paper doll book, etc. Flemming got many TV Specials since Hollywood was not interested after Sonia. Others, Maybe a TV Special. It was Katt who cashed in the Olys. She got contracts with major companies to sell their products. I believe she also Starred in ice shows at her convenience. Many gigs around the world. She was the most successful skater in her era. and continues to make big dollars and deutsche marks. Kristi picked up on this and made a successful career after the Olys. Kristi was unique and made it work. There was no need to get back into working triiple axels a la Midori.

As long as there is a market for Figure Skating Shows, they will exist. Pro competitions in figure skating will probably not exist because of the best of the skaters (those with the most tricks) are in the "eligible' category.

And Owen , please continue to discuss. That's what Golden Skate is about. And controlled raving is just fine

Joe

There seemed to be an interest in Pro competitive skating, especially after the whack heard round the world, the participants were on a roll during that brief era. One could go pro after the olys and make money whether you won them or not. Great opportunity for so many elite skaters. However, they turned the competition into a silly show and the public lost interest in pro competitive skating. The character of the number was more important than the skate.

 

[OwenEvans]

Joe and Mathman, thanks for your considered responses.

Now that the ISU has managed to get with the programme and update the eligible rules so that the athletes can continue to compete and earn $$$, I think the trend will be for skaters to remain in the eligble ranks for as long as they care to train/compete to eligible standards and/or their bodies hold out. Certainly for the those in the top-flight, I don't think they will be leaving for the pro ranks/show skating just to earn $$$ as in the "old days" and I think this might be a major factor as to why (hopefully) Michelle will be skating in Torino, and both Shizuka and Cupcake will be in Torino, 8 years after Nagano. It must be a lot easier for Michelle, Suzuka, Irina, Cupcake et al (all of whom are moving into their mid-20 and who have had no "career" other than skating) to continue to train/compete hard without the worry of $$$ along the way.


Re: Torino. It's tragic, but both OGs she has been to, Michelle Kwan (a great, great competitor, known for laying down great skates when it counts) has sorta turned into Sasha Cohen, at least in the LPs. I think there will be nowhere near the previous expectations on Michelle should she go to Torino and if that's the case, and she has COP-competitive programs and really wants it, (bold statement time and Skategods, please cover your ears!) she'll win it. Under COP, and with the technical tricks the other ladies are sure to show, I don't think that she would be in first after the SP, and that will be the best situation for her. I always thought if she had been 2nd or 3rd coming into the FS at Nagano and SLC, she would be double OGM now as we all know what Michelle is capable of when coming from behind. I don't think she is in disfavour with the judges and I'm sure they would still love to award her the OGM if she can produce the goods. Lots of "ifs" I know, but it's nice to dream....

 

[RealtorGal]

I believe that Nancy Kerrigan has had quite a successful pro career, thanks to that whack, no doubt.

Michelle needs to get her programs judged under CoP if she is to have ANY hope of a gold medal in Torino.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Sonja Henie was 15 when she won her first of three consecutive Olympic gold medals. Tenley Albright of the US was 20 when she won the GM in 1956, as was American Carol Heiss, when she won in 1960. Sjoukje Dijkstra of Holland was 22 when she won the GM in 1964. Peggy Fleming of the US was 19 when she won in 1968. Beatrix Schuba of Austria was 20 when she won in 1972, and Dorothy Hamill of the US was 19 when she won in 1976. Annet Poetzsch of East Germany was 20 when she won in 1980, and East Germany's Katarina was 18 and 22 when she won in 1984 and 1988. Kristi Yamaguchi was 20 when she won the GM in 1992. Up until that time, the Olympic champions in women's figure skating were in the 18-22 age range - young women.

In 1994, Oksana Baiul of the Ukraine won at the age of 16. American Tara Lipinski was 15 when she won in 1998, and Sarah Hughes of the US was 16 when she won in 2002. So, the past three Olympics have produced champions aged 15 and 16 - young girls.

Kristi Yamaguchi had not expected to win the gold medal at Albertville. She was the defending World Champion, but she considered Tonya Harding and Midori Ito to be the co-favorites for the gold medal, due to their triple axels.
Kristi believed she was poised for bronze, possibly silver, and she fully expected to continue as an eligible skater through 1994. Since the Olympics would be staggered over two-year periods, she would have a two-year wait instead of a four-year wait. Kristi finished second to Harding at the 1991 Skate America contest - Harding was absolutely dynamic, and Kristi finished second to Ito at Trophe Lalique in 1991. Since she had finished second to both Harding and Ito, she felt she wasn't the favorite the the Olympic gold medal.

With her victory, there really wasn't a need to continue to compete, unless she wanted to try to defend her title. However, given that both Harding and Kerrigan intended to stay in the game, perhaps she felt she might be putting her gold medal at risk by continuing to compete. Whatever the reason, Kristi turned pro, and she had a fantastic, glorious pro career.

In the days of Fleming and Hamill, it was a case of winning the OGM, winning one last Worlds (or in the case of Hamill, her first and only Worlds) and then turning pro. There were only a few major ice shows in those days - Ice Capdes, Holiday on Ice, Ice Follies, etc. Fleming and Hamill also filmed several television specials and made big incomes from commercial endorsements.

Other Olympic champions, such as Carol Heiss, had brief pro careers, then retired. Heiss, of course, has been a very successful coach for the past 25 years or so.

Who knows what would have happened to Katarina Witt if Communism had not collapsed? Perhaps she would have defected to America, become a US citizen, and skated as she is today. Or perhaps she would have stayed in the GDR and become a coach - disappearing from public view, as it were.

 

[Linny]

Kat Witt

There are some assumptions being made about Kat Witt's position after her first OGM that not in harmony with what Kat explains in her A&E biography. She never even considered defection. Perhaps it might be best to hear her speak on the subject.
Linny

 

[mzheng]

Joe and Mathman, thanks for your considered responses.
Re: Torino. It's tragic, but both OGs she has been to, Michelle Kwan (a great, great competitor, known for laying down great skates when it counts) has sorta turned into Sasha Cohen, at least in the LPs. I think there will be nowhere near the previous expectations on Michelle should she go to Torino and if that's the case, and she has COP-competitive programs and really wants it, (bold statement time and Skategods, please cover your ears!) she'll win it. Under COP, and with the technical tricks the other ladies are sure to show, I don't think that she would be in first after the SP, and that will be the best situation for her. I always thought if she had been 2nd or 3rd coming into the FS at Nagano and SLC, she would be double OGM now as we all know what Michelle is capable of when coming from behind. I don't think she is in disfavour with the judges and I'm sure they would still love to award her the OGM if she can produce the goods. Lots of "ifs" I know, but it's nice to dream....

Well unless her close competetors can pull off 4Sal and 3Axel. As far as 3/3s go she will be right up there with them, from what I've heard the practice report. I'll put my bet on Michelle landing the 3/3s before Sasha down the road to the Turing.

 

[OwenEvans]

Well mzheng, I agree....but what exactly is the point of your statement apropos quoting part of my earlier post?

Linny (or anyone), for those of us who have not and probably will not see the Kat A&E doco, what were her statements about defecting (or not)?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Owen - Your take on Michelle Kwan is kind of wrapping it all up, and much of which I agree. As I've said before, she will not be desperate to win the Olys. She will be very cool, not nervous, and skate a beautful farewell program. I think Irina, too, will not have any expectations of winning the OGM, and she too, will give a great performance that night. MK may even throw in a 3x3toe. I think they will be competing against each other for the best farwell performance. They want to die with their boots on!

While I totally agree with you on MK, I don't see Sasha as the heir apparent for getting that OGM so easily. Much of Sasha's tour de force (extensioins, fast spins) will become expected rather than be awesome. However, she generally has welll choreographed routines and that will keep her on top of her game. I doubt her jumps even if executed well, will be of any advantage to her. She will be the top contender for the US, but if one of the Europeans skate well, there may well be European bias towards the gold. Then there are the Japanese Ladies of which I only think of Shizuka as having a crack at the gold.

And past experience has shown that the judges tend to go for the teenagers in which case there are a number of talented skaters and one just might hit on THAT NIGHT.

Future plans for Michelle, could just mean a married life with family, and hopefully a chance at commenting on figure skating. Maybe a gig or two on holiday specials, etc.

Joe

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

Carol Heiss was 20 when she won her Olympic gold. I think Tenley Albright was 20 or 21.

Katarina was an ancient 23 when she won her second LOL

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

why the disdain for teens? if they're good the night of then why penalize them because they're a teen. I think the real problem a lot of people have with the last 3 teen champions is because teens these days are looked down as the scum on the world.... we're dirt under the feet. We're not *mature* enough we're not *worthy* enough...

Tara was exciting to watch and yes her youth might have had something to do with her no fear kick butt attitude... but being as how she was suffering already from her hip she might have also thought that it was her only shot... that would be a mature way of thinking in my *teenaged* opinion. Sarah won because the *older* more *mature* women fell and she stayed on her feet... she was inspired that night... she was 4th and figured she might have a chance for a medal but I don't think gold ever entered her mind while she was skating until AFTER she got off and realized she had the skate of her life. I was 9 when Oksana won, and really I can't comment on that one... but the "curse" of the teen skaters is only a curse if you so desire to think it so. they deservingly won their place in skating history...

I remember being 13 during the 1994 Olympics, and Bob Varsha, the ESPN Commentator was commentating during Europeans (he's another Terry Gannon- specialised in another sport, but ended up doing solely figure skating), and he said something along the lines of, "The next generation of skating will be exciting. Michelle Kwan, Oksana Baiul..." I guess he thought Oksana would be competing till the 1998 Olympics...(though a few years ago, she did seek reinstatement for 2002, but was denied by Cinquanta for being what he called a "deserter).

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

Katarina had to have been over 20 when she won her second gold medal. I don't remember her being 15ish when she won in 1984. Also, Oksana wasn't the only champion who didn't show up for Worlds in 94. G&G didin't either. I'm not sure about Urmanov. It seems that almost all OGM winners went pre-1994, and hardly any have bothered to go since.

I don't have a problem with a teenager winning if they deserve it that night. However, something different next time around would be nice, just for a change of pace.

Urmanov went to the worlds, and finished 4th.

 

[mzheng]

Well unless her close competetors can pull off 4Sal and 3Axel. As far as 3/3s go she will be right up there with them, from what I've heard the practice report. I'll put my bet on Michelle landing the 3/3s before Sasha down the road to the Turing.

When you mentioned MK weren't be first after SP, I thought you hinted because her jump difficult is not there with them. lol.

Oh, another thing I stand for my previouse claim that one of the reasons 3 prev teen OGMs left the scene because they can't take the pressure that come with the public expectation put on a OGM each time they step on ice thereafter. In another words, In their young mind they are afraid they can't match what ever the performance they delivered at that day (at least for Tara and Sarah), thus take the risk of being beaten by the same competetors they against during their Olympic winning, thus tinted their OGM. (I for one don't think it's a shame to be beaten even after OGM, it's a sport you win some you lose some). But for a young mind usually would work that way. (That's just my opinions and its based on my observation in real life. And more or less my own experience, may be not in sports but in other eareas. ). That's another reason why I prefer a matured skater win next Olympics.

 

[euterpe]

In the GP, this season, many skaters are doing 3/3s but are having those combinations downgraded to 3/2s because of underrotation. At NHK yesterday, Ando's and Arakawa's 3/3s in the SP were downgraded.

So maybe these skaters with their technical "difficulty" won't have a true advantage l over Kwan and Cohen, as long as the US ladies flesh out their programs with good choreography and interesting transitions.

 

[Crizzy]

Alexei coaching pictures

I must say that is the most delicious coach I've ever seen. Yum, YUM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think anyone has disdain for teenagers. Teenagers have an advantage in competitions because they are sooooo young.

IMO, there are two contenders at this point for OGM and they are Sasha and Shizuka, but the Olys are a year plus away and many things can happen. If either or both melt, there is the European hometown girl, Carolina to win. How many judges would like to bring this medal back to Europe?

There is also a handful of very talented teenagers which traditionally could give them a big advantage. Let's check out the Worlds and see where we are with that.

Joe

 

[SkateFan4Life]

There are some assumptions being made about Kat Witt's position after her first OGM that not in harmony with what Kat explains in her A&E biography. She never even considered defection. Perhaps it might be best to hear her speak on the subject.
Linny

Good point, Linny. Katarina always seemed to be a loyal citizen of the German Democratic Republic during her competitive years, and she proudly won those four World titles, six European titles, and two Olympic gold medals for East Germany. Perhaps she would have been contented to remain behind the Iron Curtain, with only occasional travel to the West to skate in tours, had the end of Communism not occurred. We'll never know, of course.

 

[Lipinskifan19]

Oh, another thing I stand for my previouse claim that one of the reasons 3 prev teen OGMs left the scene because they can't take the pressure that come with the public expectation put on a OGM each time they step on ice thereafter. In another words, In their young mind they are afraid they can't match what ever the performance they delivered at that day (at least for Tara and Sarah), thus take the risk of being beaten by the same competetors they against during their Olympic winning, thus tinted their OGM. (I for one don't think it's a shame to be beaten even after OGM, it's a sport you win some you lose some). But for a young mind usually would work that way. (That's just my opinions and its based on my observation in real life. And more or less my own experience, may be not in sports but in other eareas. ). That's another reason why I prefer a matured skater win next Olympics.

I respect your opinion but don't quite agree. I can't say much about Oksana b/c i don't know why she turned pro but I'm pretty famailiar w/ Sarah/Tara's situation and I honestly don't think they turned pro b/c they couldn't stand the pressure of being OGM. I mean these girls were known for having nerves of steel and skating consistently. I'm sure they felt nervous sometimes but it never seemed to affect their performance that much. I do believe that Sarah left eligible skating (well who knows she might come back... )b/c she wanted to pursue her educational goals and didn't want to put it off. Of course now she will do SOI and I assume it's b/c she missed skating so much. And there was just no way Tara could continue w/ that bad hip of hers ( and also so her family could be together more but I know no one believes that ). Man, if she had continued doing those 3 loop/3 loops, who knows how much more serious that injury would have been?
Oh well it's just my opinion and who knows I could be completely wrong :sheesh: hwell:
I actually would prefer an older skater myself but it's only b/c this time around my favorites aren't teenagers.