That darn Lutz!

[Bluediamonds09]

Ok, so I have a problem: I honestly cannot tell when a skater is using the wrong edge on a flip or a lutz. I'm a huge skating fan, but whenever I watch, the only time I can guess if a skater has an edge problem is if the announcer points it out.
Are you supposed to look at the skater's boot and see if they skid inside or outside? I've tried that, and I still can't tell if a skater is flutzing or lipping.
So, I was hoping that you guys could help me by posting links to videos of skaters using the correct/wrong edge on these 2 jumps, just so I can see a difference in the two.

 

[mrrice]

Ok, so I have a problem: I honestly cannot tell when a skater is using the wrong edge on a flip or a lutz. I'm a huge skating fan, but whenever I watch, the only time I can guess if a skater has an edge problem is if the announcer points it out.
Are you supposed to look at the skater's boot and see if they skid inside or outside? I've tried that, and I still can't tell if a skater is flutzing or lipping.
So, I was hoping that you guys could help me by posting links to videos of skaters using the correct/wrong edge on these 2 jumps, just so I can see a difference in the two.

It's difficult to tell in real time if you don't know what to look for because on TV, you can't see the tracing on the ice and you hear the take off. For me, it's much easier to see "Flutz" on TV and it's clear as day when you see it live. Sarah hughes had some wonderful qualities but she had a flutz that was a clear as the nose on your face. I saw her at Worlds in 2001 and you could see her roll to her inside edge and I was close enough to "Hear" her edge change right as she was leaving the edge. It's hard to explain but, the sound the of a clean Lutz is crisp and sharp. The sound of a Flutz has a sweeping sound that is not crisp. I know that wasn't very clear but, I hope you got the gist.

 

[concorde]

Michael Weiss put together a series of videos that explain all the jumps. The series is called "how to perform the six basic jumps" and can be found on you tubes.

 

[sarama]

If you watch the jumps in slow motion on Youtube, it will probably be much easier to understand when skaters are flutzing. And also the camera angle can help you: from the side you can't see the edges really well.

Some excellent Lutzers.... Liza, Yuna, Vivian , [URL="https://youtu.be/XLQlY91J-rM?t=52"]Polina T., Kolyada, Machida

Flutz examples: Shoma, Kanako. Also Ashley flutzes badly, Evgenia is slightly better, Mao had improved lately but used to have an obvious flutz, same for Zijun, Adelina and Yulia flutz as well IMHO, although it was one of their money jumps (figure skating is weird some times!). If you go back in time A LOT of girls used to flutz as well.

Then there are skaters like Osmond or Suzuki, who have a weird technique and very similar looking Flip and Lutz, so it gets tricky.

Lips are harder to spot IMHO, because a Flip doesn't require a deep edge, while a Lutz does so difference between a Lutz and a Flutz is more obvious ( I hope this makes sense).
Some proper Flips: Patrick, Carolina, Mai , Courtney. Also basically all "flutzers" have decent flip entries.

Some Lips: Anna, Gracie, Karen, Polina Edmunds, Samohin
A lot of guys lip, to the point that they don't include the jump in their programs (Kovtun, Kolyada, Aaron). Skaters like Yuzuru or Dimitri Aliev have solved their lip problems with more difficult entries! Before and after

I hope this helps!

 

[Bluediamonds09]

If you watch the jumps in slow motion on Youtube, it will probably be much easier to understand when skaters are flutzing. And also the camera angle can help you: from the side you can't see the edges really well.

Some excellent Lutzers.... Liza, Yuna, Vivian , [URL="https://youtu.be/XLQlY91J-rM?t=52"]Polina T., Kolyada, Machida

Flutz examples: Shoma, Kanako. Also Ashley flutzes badly, Evgenia is slightly better, Mao had improved lately but used to have an obvious flutz, same for Zijun, Adelina and Yulia flutz as well IMHO, although it was one of their money jumps (figure skating is weird some times!). If you go back in time A LOT of girls used to flutz as well.

Then there are skaters like Osmond or Suzuki, who have a weird technique and very similar looking Flip and Lutz, so it gets tricky.

Lips are harder to spot IMHO, because a Flip doesn't require a deep edge, while a Lutz does so difference between a Lutz and a Flutz is more obvious ( I hope this makes sense).
Some proper Flips: Patrick, Carolina, Mai , Courtney. Also basically all "flutzers" have decent flip entries.

Some Lips: Anna, Gracie, Karen, Polina Edmunds, Samohin
A lot of guys lip, to the point that they don't include the jump in their programs (Kovtun, Kolyada, Aaron). Skaters like Yuzuru or Dimitri Aliev have solved their lip problems with more difficult entries! Before and after

I hope this helps!

on the outside......
Thanks so much for this, much appreciated .
And yet, it's still impossible for me to tell if a skater is flutzing or lipping! the flip is on the inside edge and the lutz

 

[sarama]

on the outside......
Thanks so much for this, much appreciated .
And yet, it's still impossible for me to tell if a skater is flutzing or lipping! the flip is on the inside edge and the lutz

There are a lot of videos on Youtube (like these ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iel9kjBAq2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-JDIGUkEok ), that try to explain Lips and Flutzes. Maybe yhey can help. Just beware some of them are a little biased.

 

[mrrice]

I've been around a long time and from what I remember, the best Lutz's from the ladies came from Maria Butyrskaya, and Julia Sebastian. The Men, Patrick Chan and Plushy. I still believe that Patrick Chan is the most talented skater that I have ever seen and when he's on, his performance level and ability to portray a character, make him truly special.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Ok, so I have a problem: I honestly cannot tell when a skater is using the wrong edge on a flip or a lutz. I'm a huge skating fan, but whenever I watch, the only time I can guess if a skater has an edge problem is if the announcer points it out.
Are you supposed to look at the skater's boot and see if they skid inside or outside? I've tried that, and I still can't tell if a skater is flutzing or lipping.
So, I was hoping that you guys could help me by posting links to videos of skaters using the correct/wrong edge on these 2 jumps, just so I can see a difference in the two.

While knowing technique is good, it's kind of a good thing not to be irked by a lip or a flutz! For some folks it actually detracts from a program (well, usually because they want to nitpick on a skater they don't like - ahem, I mean, "point out technique issues" :sarcasm.

If you go back to many programs from before edge calls (e and !) were flagged, more skaters than you'd expect had edge issues, but people didn't make nearly as big a stink. Good technique is to be rewarded, and poor technique should be deducted yes, but usually a flutz isn't the most noticeable error in real-time, and you'd have to slow it down... hence all those videos (usually biased, as mentioned by sarama) that focus on the edge call. Before the scrutiny, a lutz or flip was called based on the intended jump (as in the setup will tell you if they're going into a flip or a lutz).

Most flutzers have an issue with the vault on their lutz, so they end up initiating rotation before they spring into the air off their toe pick. A lutz jump is also difficult in that you're rotating/torquing counter to the outside edge, so some skaters to get that initial torque risk switching off the outside edge edge onto an inside edge (which is more natural in terms of getting into the rotation of the jump). It is a very difficult thing to control, and I'm sure a lot of past 6.0/early IJS World champions would have been nailed by edge calls themselves if they were scrutinized as much as they are today (not that the judges would deduct them for it, lol).

 

[Bluediamonds09]

While knowing technique is good, it's kind of a good thing not to be irked by a lip or a flutz! For some folks it actually detracts from a program (well, usually because they want to nitpick on a skater they don't like - ahem, I mean, "point out technique issues" :sarcasm.

If you go back to many programs from before edge calls (e and !) were flagged, more skaters than you'd expect had edge issues, but people didn't make nearly as big a stink. Good technique is to be rewarded, and poor technique should be deducted yes, but usually a flutz isn't the most noticeable error in real-time, and you'd have to slow it down... hence all those videos (usually biased, as mentioned by sarama) that focus on the edge call. Before the scrutiny, a lutz or flip was called based on the intended jump (as in the setup will tell you if they're going into a flip or a lutz).

Most flutzers have an issue with the vault on their lutz, so they end up initiating rotation before they spring into the air off their toe pick. A lutz jump is also difficult in that you're rotating/torquing counter to the outside edge, so some skaters to get that initial torque risk switching off the outside edge edge onto an inside edge (which is more natural in terms of getting into the rotation of the jump). It is a very difficult thing to control, and I'm sure a lot of past 6.0/early IJS World champions would have been nailed by edge calls themselves if they were scrutinized as much as they are today (not that the judges would deduct them for it, lol).

Thanks I see what you mean. Trying to spot the flutzes and lips does actually distract me from the program.
I was trying to see it the way the judges see it. I doubt they're focused on the program as a whole, they're just looking at the jumps. (I truly believe that).
It seemed like a good idea to try to use these months leading up to the Olympics trying to spot technical stuff. Ya know, so I'd understand the scores better and not get upset over who gets edge calls and who doesn't.

 

[gkelly]

I was trying to see it the way the judges see it. I doubt they're focused on the program as a whole, they're just looking at the jumps. (I truly believe that).

Each jump (the jump itself, from the step immediately before the takeoff edge through the step after the landing), takes approximately 2-5 seconds.

The best judges should be able to think all the thoughts they need to think about that jump while it's happening and record the GOE immediately afterward. Then they're free to forget about it. Or make a mental or written note to come back to it after the reviews if the GOE is dependent on what the tech panel does or doesn't call -- but they don't have to think about it any more while the program is in process.

If there's something unusual about the way the element was performed and how that relates to the GOE rules, again, they can make a note to rewatch on video replay if available and/or to consult the rules after the program. But there's nothing else they can do about it in real time.

Even the worst judges, who might not be very good at seeing underrotations or wrong edges for themselves or remembering all the relevant rules, have no reason to keep thinking about a jump after it's over and the skater is on to the next move.

Spins and step sequences and many pair moves take longer to execute than a jump or even jump combination does, so the judges may spend more time thinking about those moves while they're in progress. But especially with step sequences what they're thinking about the element may relate as much to program components, to how the element fits in the program as a whole, as it does to GOE.

In between the elements, they have plenty of time to think about the various program component criteria. Yes, the elements will subtract some thought time from thinking about the program as a whole. And evaluating five separate components will split their thoughts more than if they only had to evaluate one or two of the current components.

But for judges who have been evaluating thousands of programs and tens of thousands of jumps per year for many years, most of it should become second nature. Scoring the vast majority of jumps really does not take much mental effort for them in real time. If you or I need more time to think about each jump, then we just need to practice more.