The New HD Replay

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It is mentioned in one of the articles in icenetwork that the Olympics has installed a new Instant Replay System for the Tech Panel and Judges to use. It is in HD. That should make underrotations and wrong edge take-offs clearer.

Nothing about Fans seeing these replays.

 

[janetfan]

It is mentioned in one of the articles in icenetwork that the Olympics has installed a new Instant Replay System for the Tech Panel and Judges to use. It is in HD. That should make underrotations and wrong edge take-offs clearer.

Nothing about Fans seeing these replays.

It would be nice to see the HD replays but it would be even nicer to know how each of the judges are voting, including all of the throw away marks.
But it seems like Cinquanta enjoys the secrecy factor way too much to open up the scoring to the viewers. And he wonders why the sport is at all time lows in North America.
This feels very similar to the way Europeans run their football/soccer - and despite horrific examples of bad officiating - certain powers that be refuse to introduce instant replays.
I hope the next ISU president will either be from North America or Asia as the Euro tradition of bloc voting, dirty tricks and secret marks is detrimental to all fans who like and expect fair play in their sporting events.

 

[evangeline]

It would be nice to see the HD replays but it would be even nicer to know how each of the judges are voting, including all of the throw away marks.
But it seems like Cinquanta enjoys the secrecy factor way too much to open up the scoring to the viewers. And he wonders why the sport is at all time lows in North America.
This feels very similar to the way Europeans run their football/soccer - and despite horrific examples of bad officiating - certain powers that be refuse to introduce instant replays.
I hope the next ISU president will either be from North America or Asia as the Euro tradition of bloc voting, dirty tricks and secret marks is detrimental to all fans who like and expect fair play in their sporting events.

I agree; the whole secret judging thing is just ridiculous and basically destroys any shred of accountability in the whole judging system.

However, I think it is a bit unfair to condemn the whole secrecy thing as a European affair and speak about a "Euro tradition of bloc voting, dirty tricks and secret marks." If I recall correctly, David Dore--a Canadian--had a large role in constructing CoP, including the whole secret judges thing. And speaking as a Canadian, I highly doubt that Europeans are the only ones engaging in bloc voting and other dirty tricks.

As for the next ISU president, if Cinquanta ever quits his position, rumour has it that David Dore is the heir to the throne (or so to speak). So the next ISU President may indeed be from North America. However, with Dore's past history as a Cinquanta-and-secret-judging-supporter, I doubt that any major change will actually occur.

 

[janetfan]

I agree; the whole secret judging thing is just ridiculous and basically destroys any shred of accountability in the whole judging system.

However, I think it is a bit unfair to condemn the whole secrecy thing as a European affair and speak about a "Euro tradition of bloc voting, dirty tricks and secret marks." If I recall correctly, David Dore--a Canadian--had a large role in constructing CoP, including the whole secret judges thing. And speaking as a Canadian, I highly doubt that Europeans are the only ones engaging in bloc voting and other dirty tricks.

As for the next ISU president, if Cinquanta ever quits his position, rumour has it that David Dore is the heir to the throne (or so to speak). So the next ISU President may indeed be from North America. However, with Dore's past history as a Cinquanta-and-secret-judging-supporter, I doubt that any major change will actually occur.

Thanks for your interesting (and depressing) remarks. Actually your remarks are fine, it is just depressing for me to think the anonymous judging will continue on into the future.
About the bloc voting/dirty tricks comments I would like to apologize but that would be insincere on my part. I don't claim North Americans or Asians are without fault but when it comes to the winter olympics it has unfortunately always been a simple matter of the math. Check out a typical panel and too frequently there will be one or two N. Americans. Maybe one or two Asians. The rest at skating events will all be European. I see big events being judged sometimes with only one N. American, one Asian and the rest European.
It is ridiculous and the Europeans, led initially by the Soviets (who even used to teach their judges the fine art of cheating as part of their training) and now with newer alliances continue in this unsportsmanlike conduct.
The US Federation was against the anonymous judging and I am surprised to hear an open society like Canada would support a system that was made for cheating. The throwing away of the high and low scores was imo created just for the pretense of claiming how honest the system would be.
How do you think Carolina K. came so close to beating Mao at 08 worlds. Caro had so many sloppy landings and was shaky through her entire LP. My gosh, I know hardly anyone who would have placed her better than 4th, behind Yuna and Yukari. Anyway.......I was just reading about Linda Fratianne and 1980. It brings back bittersweet memories to know the Ladies event was fixed that year and an amazingly mediocre E. German was given the Gold.
I won't go on but have many other memories of Euro bloc voting. Worst of all, the French judge who confessed to cheating at Salt Lake has been reinstated with Cinquantas blessing, I guess he may find her a useful ally in the future.
I can't imagine having an Olympic judge, caught cheating being reinstated and taking the Olympic oath again.
What a joke and what a dirty trick:disagree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It would be quite simple if they just made a rule that 'any country with a top 10 skater or Team from the previous Worlds, would be prohibited from judging that particular event'.

But that would kill the Feds from having their fun at parties.

 

[gsrossano]

As for the next ISU president, if Cinquanta ever quits his position, rumour has it that David Dore is the heir to the throne (or so to speak).

After OC gets reelected next year, it is my understanding DD will not be age eligible for election in 2012. So that would make a DD presidency a long shot. OC will also not be age eligible in 2012, so 2010 will be speedy's last term.

BTW, the rumor mill also has it that OC demanded that anybody planning to run in 2010 for the presidency declare now, even though the rules do not require candidates announcing until next spring -- an obvious ploy to smoke out potential opposition early so he can make their lives miserable for the next 12 months.

 

[evangeline]

BTW, the rumor mill also has it that OC demanded that anybody planning to run in 2010 for the presidency declare now, even though the rules do not require candidates announcing until next spring -- an obvious ploy to smoke out potential opposition early so he can make their lives miserable for the next 12 months.

Ah, democracy at its finest!

(Thanks for the information, though)

 

[antmanb]

I was just reading about Linda Fratianne and 1980. It brings back bittersweet memories to know the Ladies event was fixed that year and an amazingly mediocre E. German was given the Gold.

I was just wondering which accounts you've read about this, because the only things i've tended to hear are how Frank Carol whined and moaned about this simply to further his own clout as a coach. Most of the accounts I've read are pretty harsh on Carol's behaviour.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I was just wondering which accounts you've read about this, because the only things i've tended to hear are how Frank Carol whined and moaned about this simply to further his own clout as a coach. Most of the accounts I've read are pretty harsh on Carol's behaviour.

Very interesting to hear that Carroll is still portrayed in a negative light in Europe.

In the U.S. he was -- and is, I think -- lauded as an honest naif in a den of thieves. The background story was that Carlo Fassi (coach of Olympic gold medalists Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, John Curry and Robin Cousins) tried to get Linda Fratianne away from Carroll. Fassi had many powerful friends in the ISU and he made the pitch that only he had the political clout to deliver the gold medal for Linda.

When Fratianne chose to stay with Frank, her goose was cooked.

In 1998, Tatiana Tarasova's famous comment about Carroll was also given play. She famously said, on the ladies event at Nagano, "Why didn't Carroll just slip us a case of vodka? What did we care which American girl won?"

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Back to the new HD Instant Replay mechanism.

I think it is a positive thing, but we must check the protocols and see how many judges agree with the Caller. In theory he should not make mistakes.

 

[antmanb]

Very interesting to hear that Carroll is still portrayed in a negative light in Europe.

In the U.S. he was -- and is, I think -- lauded as an honest naif in a den of thieves. The background story was that Carlo Fassi (coach of Olympic gold medalists Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, John Curry and Robin Cousins) tried to get Linda Fratianne away from Carroll. Fassi had many powerful friends in the ISU and he made the pitch that only he had the political clout to deliver the gold medal for Linda.

When Fratianne chose to stay with Frank, her goose was cooked.

Ok the version that i have heard several times over was Carol alleging that some kind of voting scandal was instigated by Fassi in order to ensure Cousins gold medal, which has always seemed to me a moot point (like the supposed trade off of A&P winning the dance in 2002) because he was clearly the best. The accounts of the supposed trade in votes has never added up to me for 1980, and Frank Carol is often protrayed negatively, but then that's only to be expected from the sources of my accounts, when it involves some kind of questioning of the mens result that year

Ant

 

[janetfan]

I was just wondering which accounts you've read about this, because the only things i've tended to hear are how Frank Carol whined and moaned about this simply to further his own clout as a coach. Most of the accounts I've read are pretty harsh on Carol's behaviour.


The most recent account I read was about Linda's reaction to the Pairs scandal in 2002. She goes on and says that she knew she had won the Gold medal on the ice but that it was taken away by bloc voting.
I never read much about Frank's thoughts or actions - just that he knew Linda was cheated that night.
If he did complain who could blame him? Actually, the account from Linda said they took it pretty stoically - and she wonders to this day if they should have fought it the way the Canadians did at 2002.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I should not have brought up a simple news item but started a topic on Frank, and Fratianie

I know topics go askew in many ways but HD Instant Replay to Frank Carroll's woes is a big stretch. Can a Mod change the topic title?

 

[antmanb]

Sorry to take the topic way off topic Joe.

Back on topic: I don't really have much to say about HD replay for the caller. If the caller really does need HD super slow motion etc etc to call things, then i would suggest he's in the wrong job, and also will it really make calls more accurate and will it really help if a skater lands a jump 88 degrees short rather than 92 degrees short? I suspect the caller will be as fallible as ever, even if we get to see the same replay will it make any difference in a bad call?

Ant

 

[janetfan]

Sorry to take the topic way off topic Joe.

Back on topic: I don't really have much to say about HD replay for the caller. If the caller really does need HD super slow motion etc etc to call things, then i would suggest he's in the wrong job, and also will it really make calls more accurate and will it really help if a skater lands a jump 88 degrees short rather than 92 degrees short? I suspect the caller will be as fallible as ever, even if we get to see the same replay will it make any difference in a bad call?

Ant

I think that is a very good and logical analysis. I also think it is quite natural for longtime skating fans to question just about everything regarding scoring as long as the judges scores remain anonymous. The recent elimination of two more judges makes this whole system feel more like a lottery than a fairly judged competition.
So I think the intro of HD replays is basically a smokescreen at best - and may help - just as it might also create more controversy.

 

[NYscorp6]

Very interesting to hear that Carroll is still portrayed in a negative light in Europe.

In the U.S. he was -- and is, I think -- lauded as an honest naif in a den of thieves. The background story was that Carlo Fassi (coach of Olympic gold medalists Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, John Curry and Robin Cousins) tried to get Linda Fratianne away from Carroll. Fassi had many powerful friends in the ISU and he made the pitch that only he had the political clout to deliver the gold medal for Linda.

When Fratianne chose to stay with Frank, her goose was cooked.

In 1998, Tatiana Tarasova's famous comment about Carroll was also given play. She famously said, on the ladies event at Nagano, "Why didn't Carroll just slip us a case of vodka? What did we care which American girl won?"

I didn't realize any of this. Other than Dorothy's fame in 1976, I guess Linda was my first figure skating crush. I also admired Carlo and Crista Fassi abilities very much. Maybe Linda would have had the "reputation" needed in 1980 had they teamed up. I would have liked to have seen the product of that team!

As for Frank, I still have a bad taste in my mouth for the arrogant incidents with Chris Bowman in the kiss & cry sessions years ago. We all know Chris had his demons, so perhaps I'm being too hard on Frank.

 

[dorispulaski]

True. But there's a time and a place for temper tantrums at one's skater-in the middle of a World or National championship would not be the time and the place.

So you're not that out of line vis a vis Frank.

 

[Mathman]

I think Frank Carroll loved Chris Bowman like a son and it just killed him to see Bowman throwing his talent and his life away on drugs and self-destructive behavior.

After that, I believe Carroll resolved never again to make such an intense personal and emotional investment in his students.

 

[NYscorp6]

Pehaps you are right. I lost someone I loved to addiction related issues. 10+ years later I still wonder if I could have done something differently to prevent certain events. Tragic.........

 

[janetfan]

True. But there's a time and a place for temper tantrums at one's skater-in the middle of a World or National championship would not be the time and the place.

So you're not that out of line vis a vis Frank.

Unfortunately I never saw that incident and dont know the inside story of why Frank lost his cool. It is hard to make an accurate assessment or to understand unless one is to privy to what was going on between them at the time. But I have seen Frank's interaction with his skaters for many years now and never saw anything that seemed inappropriate. In particular, I remember how well he handled a younger Michelle - who tended to get quite emotional after performing. I always thought if my daughter skated that I would have no probem entrusting her to Frank's guidance and care.
I did see Bowman skate many times, followed his career, and can imagine him crossing the line....maybe many lines, even erasing the lines.
I have no idea if Frank was out of line or if Christopher deserved his wrath at that moment.
I do know eveyone has a limit to their patience just as I know that sometimes "tough love" is sometimes all a person may have left to try and reach/help a person they care about.
Chris was a talented skater and it is tragic that he made so many bad choices in his life. I think it is unfair to condemn Frank for an incident without knowing what the full story was.
I also don't believe that is why Europeans may be down on Frank. I think it is because he is such tough competition. In a more fair and honest world, Frank would have trained two Gold medalists in addition to the many WC's he has guided his skaters too.
(And if I am off-topic please shout at the posters who lead me here - just because I am new doesn't mean I need to hear pointless whining from people afraid to point this out to well known posters here).
Thankyou in advance.