The Road Not Taken | Golden Skate

The Road Not Taken

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mathman444

Guest
The Road Not Taken

This thread is for all of you literary types and English majors out there. Help me out.

In order to land Olympic gold medallist Sarah Hughes, a dean at Yale University sent her a poem: the Road Not Taken, by Robert Frost. This is a poem about choices, and Sarah faced a choice of colleges, not to mention choices about figure skating and school. Here's the poem.

The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that, the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

What do you think this poem is about?

<strong>First attempt</strong> Let's read from the bottom up. "I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all of the difference." Aha -- the poem is a happy and self-congratulatory little ditty about the rewards of making bold choices. Yet somehow, when I finish reading, I don’t feel cheerful and pleased with myself at all.

<strong>Second attempt</strong>. Let's read from the top down. "The Road <strong>Not</strong> Taken." Oh wait. That’s not "the road less traveled by," that’s the <strong>other</strong> road, the road about which the poet says later (wistfully, regretfully?), "knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back." So it’s kind of a sad poem after all, about the regret of never knowing how your life might have turned out if you had chosen a different path.

<strong>Third attempt</strong>. Now let's read from the middle outward. "Though as for that, the passing there had worn them really about the same." So both roads are pretty much the same and it doesn't matter which one you chose? In this case, in the last stanza the poet is mocking himself, saying that "ages and ages hence" he will have told this story so many times that he almost will have come to believe it himself: that "he took the road less traveled by" (but it wasn't, really), and that this choice made a difference (but it didn't, really).

From the commentary that I have read about this poem, the third attempt seems to have the most support among scholars (including some famous ones who actually knew Robert Frost). I doesn't really matter which road you choose, because in the end all roads lead to the same place -- your destiny. It was Robert Frost's destiny to become a poet, regardless of the little choices that life threw at him along the way.

But I don’t think so. If that were all the poem is saying, I don't think that it would continue to hold our attention almost a century later. I have a recording of Frost himself reading this poem. He used a deadpan delivery that, to me, gives no hint about what he actually thought about choice and destiny -- and anyway we don't want to fall prey to the "intentional fallacy."

So the first attempt strikes back: The two roads were <strong>about</strong> the same, but one was a little less traveled by even so, or so it seemed to the traveler. And over time, that tiny choice has grown/will grow in importance until finally, he will look back and see that it <strong>did</strong> make all the difference after all.

Shall I make this into a poll, :lol: ? Will more than two people vote, :lol: ?

What is your main impression of this poem.

a. It exhorts us boldly to explore untraveled paths.

b. It invites us nostalgically to reflect on what might have been.

c. It tells us that we can’t escape our destiny.

d. It raises the question of choice versus destiny without giving an answer.

e. It’s more about how we think about and rationalize choice versus destiny than about these topics in the objective.

f. Other, or none.
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: The Road Not Taken

I think I'll vote for number 4. It's the easiest choice, since it says the least. But I think a good case could be made for number five.

The real question, to me, is, how much can we trust the narrator's objectivity? He is speaking shortly after his experience in the woods, long before his projected reflections "ages and ages hence." In reality, was one of the roads "grassy and [in want of] wear," or were they "really about the same?" Is the poet going back and forth in his mind about this, while at the same time imagining himself in the future as having magnified this supposed choice out of all proportion?

Mathman
 
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eltamina

Guest
More choices?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This thread is for all of you literary types and English majors out there[/quote]

Since I am not a literay type, I won't be helping you out, hopefully I am not hi jacking your thread away. :lol:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Shall I make this into a poll, ? Will more than two people vote[/quote]

I love polls, basically a poll is a multiple choice question. I am especially fond of the multiple - multiple format. This format allows you to poll or test more material with just one question. You have conveniently given us 5 statements, that is easy to make into a mutiple - multiple question. In my student days, I lived, battled and triumph over many m-m type questions .:lol:

The m-m format

choice a if statement 1,2 and 3 are correct
choice b, if 1, and 3 are correct
choice c if 2, and 4 are correct
choice d if 4 alone is correct
choice e if 1,2,3 & 4 are correct

But you have 5 statements, so may I ask you to combine 2 of the choices into 1?

Now of course if you allow me to free associate, the minute I see the word woods, and I think about nature and.......

Ah George Butterworth's The Banks of Greenwillow. :)

www.calculator.net/Butter...worth.html

www.towerrecords.com/prod...id=1176739

<span style="color:purple;font-size:small;">My m-m answer is e</span> :lol:
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: The Road Not Taken

I'm glad somebody posted this poem for discussion since a dean at Yale thought it was important enough to send to Sarah Hughes regarding her college choice--and lest we forget, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, et al. very much wanted Sarah in their schools as much as Sarah wanted to go to one of them. To have an Olympic gold medalist in a high profile sport like figure skating among a school's student body is a coup--good fund raising and potential alumni bucks there. The choice obviously affects Sarah's life more than it does the "lives" of these institutions, but still.

Anyway, here's my take on it: If Frost is among the great poets, he would not have chosen any one interpretation as his "message" for the poem. He would know that truth is contained in opposites, in contradictions, and thus to have a single idea as to the meaning of the poem is to negate the meaning of truth. It seems to me to come down to three assertions: (a) one choice makes little or no difference in how one ends up; (b) it is a series of choices that accrue in meaning that determine the course of one's life; and (c) one tiny choice can change the entire course of one's life.

I think the Yale dean sent Sarah the poem more as a way of influencing her choice than getting her to think a certain way about choices. That is, the dean was trying to contribute to the feeling that Yale is a community where Sarah could find a home. I think just about any poem about choices by a well-known poet would have impressed her because the a YALE DEAN took the time to send it to her. Who knows how many times this particular dean sends this particular poem to hot Yale prospects? says cynical Rgirl. In any case, the poem was part of what got Sarah to say yes to Yale and that's a feather in Yale's cap.

As for my main impression of this poem, I'll comment on each choice:
<em>a. It exhorts us boldly to explore untraveled paths.</em>
At first glance this seems the obvious choice, but upon deeper reading, as MM showed, this is really just the most presumptuous choice. In our culture, we would like to believe that by boldly taking the road less traveled we will find success, that risk is inevitably rewarded. In fact, this is not the case at all, but our culture of positivism wants to believe it is so. In any case, if this were Frost's intention, he'd be a pretty crummy poet. Poetry and prose fiction are not meant to answer questions or make assertions; they are meant to deepen the mystery of existence.

<em>b. It invites us nostalgically to reflect on what might have been.</em>
Too cute and superficial for a poet of Frost's calibre. A Hallmark card can do this. Serious poetry must do more.

<em>c. It tells us that we can’t escape our destiny.</em>
As stated above, Frost would never "tell" the reader anything. It is for the poet to arrange the objects for the reader in such a way that the reader contemplates more deeply the mystery of chance, choice, and destiny.

<em>d. It raises the question of choice versus destiny without giving an answer.</em>
This is the most inviting of the choices since it doesn't concern answers. However, great poetry should do more than just raise a question. A poem can raise the question of choice versus destiny without deepening the mystery of the two, but that does not make it a great poem. What makes the poem great, IMO, is the way the poet surrounds these questions with objects, the way the poet works with the language to set up tension within the poem, and ultimately, the way the poet leaves the reader feeling as if his knowledge has been increased at the same time he feels less certain of himself and the world.

<em>e. It’s more about how we think about and rationalize choice versus destiny than about these topics in the objective.</em>
I'm going with Eltamina here somewhat on the issue of multiple multiple choice because for me (d) and (e) together come closest to giving my impression of the poem without doing it in an essay. Of course there's always the multiple choice/essay option, ie, Choose one of the impressions below and cite your reasons for choosing it.

Ultimately, I think the brilliance of Frost's poem is that Frost manages to get across both the feeling that every choice is crucial as well as the idea that any choice makes little difference without seeming to contradict himself. By embracing this polarity, we get truth, for in fact some choices do make enormous differences in the way our lives go whereas others, seemingly just as important, have little or no bearing on where we end up and who we are five, 10, 20, however many years later. The great mystery is that we can never know what choices might be meaningless and which might have life or death consequences. Sometimes we slide into a situation virtually by accident that has enormous consequences on our lives. Other times we try with all the power we think we have to make sure things go as well as they possibly can, yet things turn out the same as if we had ignored or even tried to sabotage the situation. I think Frost is pointing out that at different times we think one or the other is the truth, yet by virtue of being human we look back on our choices and analyze them as if they have something to teach us about how to make choices in the future. Do they? Or is every situation so unique that "rules of life" do not apply across the board? Are life choices all roads less traveled? Are we always the first to make the footprints in that particular trail?
Rgirl
 
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eltamina

Guest
Re: The Road Not Taken

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the Yale dean sent Sarah the poem more as a way of influencing her choice than getting her to think a certain way about choices. That is, the dean was trying to contribute to the feeling that Yale is a community where Sarah could find a home. I think just about any poem about choices by a well-known poet would have impressed her because the a YALE DEAN took the time to send it to her. Who knows how many times this particular dean sends this particular poem to hot Yale prospects? says cynical Rgirl. In any case, the poem was part of what got Sarah to say yes to Yale and that's a feather in Yale's cap[/quote]

ITA. I think the dean sends different poems / messages to different hot prospects. Just using one poem for all candidates is too much of a one size fits all approach.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Of course there's always the multiple choice/essay option, ie, Choose one of the impressions below and cite your reasons for choosing it.[/quote]

:lol: that is too difficult. How about m-m choice into music option.

I choose answer e, i.e. 1 - 4 are correct. Now it is time for Verdi's La forza del destino ( I am still on topic somewhat la forza del destino can be translated to either the force of <strong>destiny</strong>, or the power of fate) :lol:
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: The Road Not Taken

Eltamina, about poetry and Mr.Butterworth, my favorite line from A. E. Houseman (Shropshire Lad #62) is:

"Malt does more than Milton can
to justify God's ways to man."

MM;)
 
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eltamina

Guest
synergism again

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Malt does more than Milton can to justify God's way to man ~ Houseman [/quote]

Perfect line to go with

Verdi's Libiamo ne' lieti calici "Brindisi from La traviata

and Mario Lanza's student prince
track 4

www.towerrecords.com/prod...id=1189507

Thanks for allowing me to play here, I am bowing out of this literary thread. :)

Have fun. :rollin:

PS, I guess I have to do some peom thingy?

Look what I found:

www.thegalleryofchina.com/lotusinfo.html


May your path lead you spiritually to the Sacred Chinese Lotus, aka the golden monkey, aka the skating goddess
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: synergism again

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Thanks for allowing me to play here, I am bowing out of this literary thread.[/quote] Eltamina, you can play here any time. "Literary" in this case just means people who can read;) Besides, look at Mathman. He thinks numbers and he practically lives here:p
Rgirl
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: synergism again

If you do an Internet search on The Road Not Taken, dozens of sites come up featuring scholarly essays on this poem. (Many are of the variety, "Writing a term paper on Robert Frost? For $19.95 you can download one of our 1500 prepackaged essays. B+ or better guaranteed or your money back.") I just spent some time reading a few of them (I mean real criticism by competent scholars). Pretty cool.

The funniest idea I just encountered was this. The last stanza is Frost's joke, not just on the individual reader, but on the whole world of literary criticism. The traveler in the poem has magnified and idealized his experiences, so that "ages and ages hence" his earlier choices seemed to matter, to be important, to have "made all the difference." In the same fashion this poem, having been studied and analyzed through the decades of the twentieth century, has been idealized and elevated to a place of importance in the American poetic lexicon that the poem itself can only smugly laugh at.

www.english.uiuc.edu/maps...t/road.htm

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The great mystery is that we can never know what choices might be meaningless and which might have life or death consequences. Sometimes we slide into a situation virtually by accident that has enormous consequences on our lives. Other times we try with all the power we think we have to make sure things go as well as they possibly can, yet things turn out the same as if we had ignored or even tried to sabotage the situation. I think Frost is pointing out that at different times we think one or the other is the truth, yet by virtue of being human we look back on our choices and analyze them as if they have something to teach us about how to make choices in the future. Do they? Or is every situation so unique that "rules of life" do not apply across the board? Are life choices all roads less traveled? Are we always the first to make the footprints in that particular trail?[/quote]Well, that's a poem by itself. Let's see...

Sarah Hughes cannot attend both Harvard and Yale, and be one student. Having examined a future at Harvard as far as she could, to where it bent in the underbrush, she looked at Yale, as just as fair, and having perhaps the better claim, because it was grassy and wanted wear... Sarah's older sister went to Harvard, Sarah had visited the campus and presumably it had some familiarity for her, compared to Yale.. But as for that, the passing there had worn them really about the same, and both that morning equally lay in leaves that <em>Sarah's</em> feet anyway had not trodden black.

And so Sarah chose Yale and not Harvard. Once there, she took THIS set of courses from THESE professors, rather than that set from those, which influenced her to choose THIS career rather than that one. She made friends with THIS gang rather than with that one. She met, and fell in love with, and married THIS young man and had a wonderful life -- rather than THAT one who turn out to be a scoundrel who broke her heart and ruined her happiness. So I guess this is <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>(b) ... a series of choices that accrue in meaning that determine the course of one's life[/quote]--"knowing how way leads on to way."

So the question that remains for me is this. We know all this from living. But is it really in the poem, or are we making it up out of our own life experiences, and imposing it on the poem, in hope or desperation. These mysteries are obviously too deep to be understood. Even stripped to the bare bones, as in quantum physics, the accumulation of small effects, the tension between a small and random cause producing a large effect, yet not producing any real net effect at all, "flips off rationality," and, I believe, will ultimately bring down our present understanding of particle physics altogether.

If I understand your point, RG, you are saying, yes, this is really in the poem:<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What makes the poem great, IMO, is the way the poet surrounds these questions with objects, the way the poet works with the language to set up tension within the poem, and ultimately, the way the poet leaves the reader feeling as if his knowledge has been increased at the same time he feels less certain of himself and the world.[/quote]I don’t feel as if my knowledge has been increased. I feel instead like my knowledge <em>ought</em> to have been increased by reading this poem, and if only I were a little smarter, maybe it would have been.
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: synergism again

Dr. Mathman,
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well, that's a poem by itself.[/quote] That's nice of you to say, MM (I think, unless you're being mischievious:p ). And although I didn't look at it this time, I've often referred to "Modern American Poets" and other literature sites for great criticism and analysis of work that keep me from limiting my satisfaction in life to the "countless trivial and vulgar amusements of a crude people" so that I "have no time for the joys of the mind." Otherwise, I might be one of "those who are so closely shut up within a little round of petty pleasures they that have never dreamed of the fun of reading and conversing and investigating and reflecting." Of course, reading and posting on GS no doubt fulfills all the requirements that would make Alexander Meiklejohn proud:D

I disagree with you on the following point; however, the quote you cite does warrant some explanation. You say:
<em>"So the question that remains for me is this. We know all this from living. But is it really in the poem, or are we making it up out of our own life experiences, and imposing it on the poem, in hope or desperation....

If I understand your point, RG, you are saying, yes, this is really in the poem:
Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes the poem great, IMO, is the way the poet surrounds these questions with objects, the way the poet works with the language to set up tension within the poem, and ultimately, the way the poet leaves the reader feeling as if his knowledge has been increased at the same time he feels less certain of himself and the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t feel as if my knowledge has been increased. I feel instead like my knowledge ought to have been increased by reading this poem, and if only I were a little smarter, maybe it would have been."</em>

First of all, no meaning exists in any group of words, be they on paper or in sound. Any meaning exists only in the reader's mind. In other words, meaning is not what has been created on the page, but rather what the reader creates in his/her mind. When I wrote the section on "What makes the poem great..." I used the common device of speaking of myself in the third person, that is, as "the reader," and as if my individual responses were universal. Technically, that section might have been rewritten as:
<em>"What I find makes the poem great is...the way Frost leaves me feeling as if my knowledge has been increased at the same time I feels less certain of myself and the world."</em>

I can parse out abstract elements in the poem, such as the use of objects and the way Frost uses language, but virtually every poem uses objects and language. Were I writing a "for real" paper on this poem, I would have to get into the specifics of analysis and deconstruction, and have some sort of thesis to work from regarding the poem (is it to argue whether or not it is a great poem? to elucidate the levels of meaning?) but as we know, my posts are long enough already;) However, as I was saying, the meaning of <em>every</em> poem is created only in the reader's mind. When people discuss a poem or read literary criticism, additional meaning may become apparent to the reader, but it's still only in the reader's mind.

The question for me is, do we use only what we already know to construct the meaning of the poem or do some poems, perhaps what we consider great poems, pry our minds open in new ways and bring us to a new kind of understanding or questioning of the world? Does a great poem present information in such a way that we are forced, if we are so inclined, to solve it like an equation, trying to make sense of something that is beyond our immediate grasp? Or does the poem prick our intellect in such a way that it opens a new path to our "heart" or "soul" in terms of human understanding? With this particular poem, I think what happens, or rather happens with some people, is that the poem seems at first glance to be yet another take on the classic theme of "the choice of two paths." Indeed, I think the reason so many people love Frost is that his poems can be read on several levels. In this poem, one is an easily accessible level that results in satisfying meaning and emotion for many people, ie, that making the choice that is "the path less taken" is the "right" thing to do. Another level is Frost's inversion of what seems like the obvious meaning of the poem, that taking "the road less traveled" has nothing to do with being the "right" choice, that in fact one may look back and ponder what would have happened had one taken the other path. Another level is that there is no such thing as the "right" choice, and that what Frost is to trying to do is to plumb the depths of mystery in the human construct of "choice" as well as what we consider "right" and "wrong" choices.

To go back to your question, you compare the way poetry works upon the mind in terms of meaning to quantum physics:
<em>So the question that remains for me is this. We know all this from living. But is it really in the poem, or are we making it up out of our own life experiences, and imposing it on the poem, in hope or desperation. These mysteries are obviously too deep to be understood. Even stripped to the bare bones, as in quantum physics, the accumulation of small effects, the tension between a small and random cause producing a large effect, yet not producing any real net effect at all, "flips off rationality," and, I believe, will ultimately bring down our present understanding of particle physics altogether.</em>

In fact I think the great works of literature, meaning those that will stand the test of centuries or millenia, are those that work on principles very similar to those of particle physics. Despite all the criticism and analysis, ultimately the "reason" why some works of literature (or visual art or music or whatever) burrow into the "higher" angels of our nature and are agreed upon as bringing us closer to the truth of what it means to be human does indeed flip off rationality. Why have certain plays of Shakespeare been absorbed into the cultures and psyches of people from the great learning institutions of western civilization to the rural areas of China and Africa? Why do certain Greek plays still move audiences over 2000 years after they were written? Libraries worth of analysis have been written about these works, yet it's still like trying to say why one falls in love with one person and not another. It flips off rationality.

However, that is not to say that analysis is useless. To go back to your physics example, when I was taking my first (and turned out to be only) course in high speed particle physics, I struggled and muddled through the first half of the semester. One day at the bookstore, I was looking for some other text that might help me. Lo and behold, I found a study guide that had been written to go with our textbook. It broke the problems down in the most basic ways, ie, first look at this, then look at that, then look at this in relation to that given this law, etc. I bought and started using the study guide, but I still remained muddled. The next test came along and on one of the questions, instead of feeling as if I was just pushing principles around in a kind of chimpanzee fashion, it was as if I saw the elements of the question with a whole new part of my brain. I can't remember the question, but I can still remember the feeling of "seeing" or perhaps more accurately feeling the answer as part and parcel of the question in a way my brain had never worked before. It was as if my brain had grown new connections that had finally waked up.

My theory is that neuronal connections and neurochemical changes had been going on all during my muddled weeks of study and that the study guide gave me a way of organzing my approach to the problems that I did not come by naturally. My old boyfriend, who was a physical chemist, used to wonder how I so easily "got" things in certain books or movies just as I wondered how he so easily "got" things mathematical spatial relationships. I needed a babystep guide into quantum physics just as my boyfriend needed that kind of guide into higher level verbal analysis. I'm tired and losing my focus, but the point I had in mind when I started this was that often the very process of trying to understand something, whether you ultimately feel you understand it or not, creates changes in the brain that may manifest themselves in ways we may never relate to the experience of trying to understand a particular subject or even a single poem.

So when you say, "I don’t feel as if my knowledge has been increased. I feel instead like my knowledge ought to have been increased by reading this poem, and if only I were a little smarter, maybe it would have been," I'm inclined to say that although you may not feel as if you have experienced an increase in knowledge--and indeed "knowledge" may not be the right word; wisdom may be more like it--by studying the poem and reading criticsim about it, changes in your brain have taken place that may someday result in an insight into something you might otherwise not have had. OTOH, this poem just might not be "it" for you. You may just read it, enjoy it for what it offers, and move on. Another poem, however, may bring you to a whole new plane of understanding life--or relating to the mystery of life, just like some pieces of music give you chills and make you want to listen to them again and again while others are a pleasant experience but nothing more. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. For lack of a better word, I think it has to do with love. But just as one is more likely to be able to love a greater number of people if one is exposed to a large variety of people--provided the circumstances are generally positive--I think one is able to respond to a greater number and variety of poetry, art, music, dance, whatever, if one has been exposed to them under positive circumstances. By respond I don't mean one necessarily responds positively--I think the more you know what you love the easier it is to recognize what you hate--but I do think one grows the neurochemical and psychobiological tools to use in one's recognition.

So I've gone completely off the topic of the poem and transgressed into the area of how do we know why we like what we like and how do we imbue meaning into inert objects. But just so this isn't a total mess, since you don't feel as if your knowledge has been increased by reading this poem, what do you feel this poem has done for you, if anything, and why?
Professor Rgirl:p
 
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schmooze1

Guest
Re: synergism again

I have always loved English when I was in school and often thought about studying it further until I realised that I didn't have the patience for professor and teacher types who were insistant on their interpretaiton being the 'right' one.

In my mind unless you were there personally when a poet playwright or whatever is writing the work you will never truely know what the work is about. For this reason I believe that there is no true correct answer/interpretation and that these works are to be what you make of them and as long as you can back up what you say then it should be considered a 'correct' interpretation

For my part I think the poem is reflection of life and how your choices can affect the course of your life. I don't see any discontent or painful looks back, I see someone who came up against a choice, two paths that he could take, one he knew where it would take him and the other he had little or no idea. Obviously others had come up against this choice and had either taken the predictable route or the route that might had lead to anything.

I see it as a choice of being brave enough to go into the unknown or afraid of where life might lead you and going along the 'safe' route.

I see a more nostaligic look back at 'what might have been' if he had taken the other path. It is not unusual for people to look at their life in this manner for instance I often think how different my life would have been if I had taken a masters in enivronmental law a year ago instead of the PhD in environmental epidemiology I did take. It doesn't mean that I am not happy with the choice I made just that I have an awareness of how different my life could have been, what different people I would have met and where my career would have ultimately ended up.
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: synergism again

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In my mind unless you were there personally when a poet playwright or whatever is writing the work you will never truely know what the work is about. For this reason I believe that there is no true correct answer/interpretation and that these works are to be what you make of them and as long as you can back up what you say then it should be considered a 'correct' interpretation.[/quote] Schmooze, ITA with your point that as long as you can back up what you say then it is a correct (prefer the term "legitimate") interpretation. The only thing I disagree with slightly is that even if you were "there" when the poet or whomever was writing the work that you would know what it was about. I don't even think the writer has the right to give an absolute in terms of what the work means. A writer may have, and ususally does start out with, an idea of what a work is going to be about, but great works take on a life of their own. It's common to hear writers say, "The characters do things I have no idea they're going to do." It sounds ridiculous, but IMO it's this kind of "letting go" of one's predetermined ideas and letting the principles of construction and the language take you into areas beyond your limitations. How else could Emily Dickinson or Flannery O'Connor, who were virtual shut-ins their entire lives, write such worldly and universally appealing work? Or Shakespeare for that matter?

Vladimir Nabokov taught writing at Syracuse and most of his lectures are published. Basically he says that it is in the writing of the work that one finds the meaning and even then, it is up to the readers to create the story and meaning for themselves. For example, Nabokov wrote two versions of <em>Lolita</em>, the first one under the title <em>The Enchanter</em>. The central idea of a middleaged man using a widowed mother to get to her prepubescent daughter is the only similarity between the two. Nabokov finished <em>The Enchanter,</em> read it to some friends, and then set aside. About ten years later he started working on the same idea again, but this time the result was <em>Lolita,</em> an entirely different work. <em>The Enchanter</em> was not published until after Nabokov's death and mostly as an academic comparison to<em>Lolita</em>. I've read both and it's interesting to see why <em>Lolita</em> is considered one of the great novels of the 20th Century and <em>The Enchanter</em> would never even have been published were it not for its relation to <em>Lolita</em>, yet they are basically the same story and Nabokov's prose in both is equally beautiful.

I think a lot of English teachers get frustrated or into a kind of power syndrome ("Only I know what's right!") and such teachers can kill a person's love of literature faster than anything. I think Frost's poem allows the reader to filter his/her own experiences through it so that one's perspective comes out heightened after reading the poem. Reading it may not change one's view of the world but I don't think that's the point, although it may change some people's. It made you ruminate on your choice, which was an academic/career one. For somebody else it might be "Do I sign the papers to take my spouse off life support?" Whatever the choice, I think the poem is balanced on the elusive point between being open-ended and guiding, between making a point and leaving the point up to the reader, so that it affects most people in some way to make them think either about the choices they've made, about the nature of choices in general, or something I can't even begin to imagine.
Rgirl
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: synergism again

Eltamina, well, I downloaded all the Lotus Flower material. All is grist for my mill. Be prepared to see lotus references start popping up on all the Michelle gushing threads. :lol:

Rgirl, definitely not being mischievous in praise of your prose.

So let me get this straight. You were a graduate student in fine arts, and just to fluff out your schedule you took courses in quantum electrodynamics.

I now have a new favorite phrase, demoting "flips off rationality" to number two: to "burrow into the higher angels of our nature."

Anyway, you made your 2800th post a doozie. Actually, it was your 2787th that was the doozie, but who’s counting?Who’s counting, and who’s still trying in despair to catch up with you?<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't see any discontent or painful looks back, I see someone who came up against a choice, two paths that he could take, one he knew where it would take him and the other he had little or no idea. (Schmooze1)[/quote]Schmooze, I think that I agree that there is no "discontent or painful looks back." The only lines of the poem that hint at this are: "Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back." To me the tone here does not seem particularly nostalgic or wistful, just a rather commonplace acknowledgement that "that's the way life is." (I do wonder what the effect of that exclamation point is, though.)

However, in that case, why in the world did Frost title the poem "The Road NOT Taken," if his purpose was to praise the road that he DID take. Or do you think that "The Road Not Taken" means the road that OTHERS had not taken -- i.e., the road less traveled by after all?

The rest of the sentence in quotes, though, seems less obvious to me. I don't think that the traveler knew where <em>either</em> road would take him. "...long I stood and looked down one as far as I could, to where it bent in the underbrush." I'm not even sure that the other road really <em>was</em> "less traveled by," except perhaps in the traveler's fancy: "...as for that, the passing there had worn them really about the same." That's why I raise the question of how far we can trust the narrator's (not the poet's, of course) objectivity. And especially so in the closing lines.

Back to Rgirl.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>First of all, no meaning exists in any group of words, be they on paper or in sound. Any meaning exists only in the reader's mind. In other words, meaning is not what has been created on the page, but rather what the reader creates in his/her mind.[/quote]Oh dear. That's a precarious tightrope to walk, IMHO, R. Obviously words in the sense of little trails of graphite on a sheet of paper don't amount to much. But words do mean something, otherwise why write poems?

Here is a poem that I just wrote: "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." What does it mean? It means what it says. If there is any word there the meaning of which carries ambiguity, consult a dictionary. Do we want more?

Well, we can ask the author (me). What were you thinking about when you wrote this poem? The author replies, isn't it obvious, the quick brown fox is Michelle Kwan, the lazy dog is Sasha Cohen, and the poem means that Michelle is going to beat Sasha in the Campbell's soup bowl next year. That's what the poem means, and since I'm the author, that's that.

Well, balony. The poem means nothing of the sort. The author is a fool if he thinks it does.

Ok, then, we can ask the reader. What does this poem mean to you. The reader replies, Oh, I once had a lazy dog named Spot. I remember the time old Spot and I went duck hunting and the sunset looked so beautiful it made me cry. Good old Spot, he's in dog heaven now. What a beautiful poem!

If my poem is so beautiful (and so universally appealing -- everybody's had a dog, or at least seen Old Yeller) why don't they put it in anthologies and write learned treatises about it?

So does this put me on the side of those mean old spirit-crushing English teachers who insist that the words in Frost's poetry mean something independent of the personal experiences of his readers? What is killing me about this poem is that I still don't know whether that stupid road was less traveled by or not, or whether it would have made any difference if it had been.

Mathman
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: synergism again

Hi, Emmy. I see you're on line right now. Want to join in?

MM
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: synergism again

I tried to follow up on Schmooze's point (somewhat contested by Rgirl) that it would help if we had been there when the author wrote the poem. Here are a couple of quotes I found:

Robert Frost on his own poetry:

"One stanza of 'The Road Not Taken' was written while I was sitting on a sofa in the middle of England: Was found three or four years later, and I couldn't bear not to finish it. I wasn't thinking about myself there, but about a friend who had gone off to war, a person who, whichever road he went, would be sorry he didn't go the other. He was hard on himself that way."

"When you arrive at a fork in the road, take it. - Yogi Berra

Background
The inspiration for it (The Road Not Taken) came from Frost’s amusement over a familiar mannerism of his closest friend in England, Edward Thomas. While living in Gloucestershire in 1914, Frost frequently took long walks with Thomas through the countryside. Repeatedly Thomas would choose a route which might enable him to show his American friend a rare plant or a special vista; but it often happened that before the end of such a walk Thomas would regret the choice he had made and would sigh over what he might have shown Frost if they had taken a "better" direction. More than once, on such occasions, the New Englander had teased his Welsh-English friend for those wasted regrets. Disciplined by the austere biblical notion that a man, having put his hand to the plow, should not look back, Frost found something quaintly romantic in sighing over what might have been. Such a course of action was a road never taken by Frost, a road he had been taught to avoid. In a reminiscent mood, not very long after his return to America as a successful, newly discovered poet, Frost pretended to "carry himself" in the manner of Edward Thomas just long enough to write "The Road Not Taken". Immediately, he sent a manuscript copy of the poem to Thomas, without comment, and yet with the expectation that his friend would notice how the poem pivots ironically on the un-Frostian phase, "I shall be telling this with a sigh". As it turned out Frost’s expectations were disappointed. Thomas missed the gentle jest because the irony had been handled too slyly, too subtly.

A short time later, when "The Road Not Taken" was published in the Atlantic Monthly for August 1915, Frost hoped that some of his American readers would recognize the pivotal irony of the poem; but again he was disappointed. Self-defensively he began to drop hints as he read "The Road Not Taken" before public audiences. On one occasion he told of receiving a letter from a grammar-school girl who asked a good question of him: "Why the sigh?" That letter and that question, he said, had prompted an answer. End of the hint. On another occasion, after another public reading of "The Road Not Taken", he gave more pointed warnings: "You have to be careful of that one; it’s a trick poem – very tricky". Never did he admit that he carried himself and his ironies too subtly in that poem, but the circumstances are worth remembering here as an illustration that Frost repeatedly liked to "carry himself" dramatically, in a poem or letter, by assuming a posture not his own, simply for purposes of mockery – some times gentle and at other times malicious.
(from Selected Letters of RF : Edited by Lawrence Thompson)

Well, now we know. Except that RF is doomed to suffer yet another disappointment -- I <em>still</em> (ages and ages thence) don't recognize the pivital irony of the poem.

So is this saying that Frost intended to write a poem from the point of view of someone who looked back with regrets at the Road Not Taken, but then "ironically" Frost turned the tables and let "himself" come out at the end -- "I made a bold choice, dammit, full speed ahead!"

Then why the sigh?

Mathman
 
S

Show 42

Guest
Re: synergism again

Literary analysis was my area in college and not poetry, but I did take several poetry classes. I actually prefer British poets to American ones, but I did read a bit of Robert Frost in my day. Simply put, since only one road can be "taken" at a time, the other road is always "the road not taken". One always ponders if the decisions made in life were the correct ones and there is always "what might have been". As the road not taken is the unknown and since the future cannot be foreseen, one always hopes that the "road taken" was the correct choice..........(now you see why I chose "literature" as my field and not poetry) :p 42
 
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Freddy the Pig 2

Guest
Set You Stars

To Rgirl: The login name of the 1200th Golden Skater is not a typo, it's poetic declamation.

Set, You Stars!
Now Rise, Ye Sun!
The lab'rous day
In Earth's begun.

Groan and turn,
Oh pond'rous wheel;
The yok-ed stars
Of heaven's ceil

Obey as one
Th' Creator's wrath...
As Freddy splashes in his bath.

Oh, wow! Sometimes I even amaze myself. I hope somebody's collecting these. Of course it's not the "Shelly don't want me blues."

Freddy
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: Set You Stars

:lol: (Rgirl bows repeatedly) O Freddy! I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!

It's just one thing. I...I...I <em>still</em> don't recognize the pivotal irony of the poem. Why the splashing?
Rgirl
 
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rgirl181

Guest
Re: synergism again

Hey Show,
Literary analysis. Cool. Did they have you go by certain styles like deconstructionism or by certain analysts, ie, Derrida, Kristeva, Whateva? Where did you go to school? One of my minors was English as an undergrad but most of my "writin' learnin'" was via journalism, do-it-yourself, and private classes (not one on one, just not affiliated with any school or program) from Gordon Lish. So I'm curious as to what one did in that kind of program.

Mathman,
Too tired now, but back later with a response on the meaning of words or lackthereof lacking a reader. Also on such things as "pivotal ironies." Exciting, huh? Bet you and the entire board is flush with anticipation:x
Rgirl
 
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