The year teenage girls blew up figure skating

[CoyoteChris]

That would make things terribly boring to watch (for me at least). Others will find it more exciting I'm sure. I'm about ready for them to add figures back in. (Yes I know this will never happen)

I agree with Mathman and you. Last night, after my weekly dose of "Poldark", I watched the Ladies free from Worlds 2013, Ontario Canada. An Event which I was present at. Mao, Kanako, Gracie, Ashley, Caro, etc and what I personally reguard as the best ladies performance in the History of Figure Skating, Yuna's Les Mis. That is the kind of event I personally want to see at the rink......just sayin'

 

[CoyoteChris]

Ohhh yes, things have changed a lot since then. Training can still be very intense in places and eating disorders still do exist. But the desired aesthetic has changed, bringing a major shift in training and nutrition, and the emergence of dance science as a field has made a big difference to dancers' safety as well. Are you sure your roommate was with ABT? ABT's school, JKO, was only established in 2004, but SAB has been around a long time. SAB/NYCB are... not the healthiest environments I can think of, even today.



I can't speak to ABT specifically because I know little other than that they have a reputation as being a reasonably healthy company (and certainly very good technically)... at least from what I've heard. There are no rules in ballet to change, and I don't think public pressure has played much of a role, if any. AFAIK it's all been from within the field. I'm sure part of it is society's generally changing aesthetic from very very thin to a sporty/muscular look, and the general increase in scientific and nutritional knowledge since the '90s.

IADMS, the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, is the org devoted to dance medicine advances. I've had several teachers and friends go to their conferences (and it's a goal of mine someday to go also). There's a TON of research happening between professional companies/universities and healthcare professionals, which has helped to change training practices, as has the rise of wholistic cross-training like Pilates, yoga, Gyrotonics, etc. I think the general shift in pedagogy towards student-centered learning has trickled in too, and the shift in collaborative choreography where dancers are expected to have a voice.

But by far the biggest difference I think is just the focus. Prepro ballet training does just that, prepare you for a long career in dance. You're expected to continue to grow as an artist, and it's the artistry as much as your technique that will give you a long and respected career. It's not about getting the next best trick down; there are no triple axel or quads that will bounce you into the highest ranks. It's just you, as a whole artist. Jason Brown would be the closest example I can think of focus-wise and training-wise.

There seems comparatively little health research devoted to skaters. IMO the best thing would be to develop partnerships between universities and the larger skating rinks... Detroit, Montreal, LA, and Boston would be good ones, and U of Florida and the Florida training centers, or UCCS and the rinks in CO Springs. Serious long-term studies. Cross-training in things like Alexander Technique and Feldenkrais so skaters learn how to move efficiently and with as little effort and tension as possible. Focus on nutrition--we've all heard some pretty appalling things from skaters about their nutritional practices, and it's wholly unnecessary.

But dance isn't a competition, it's an art. There's a lot of companies and a lot of places (well, compared to skating), and it's a big field where most people can find some kind of place. Skating is a sport and only one person wins. There's only three people going to worlds, max, from this country, and far fewer career opportunities in the sport once you're retired at 20-25ish. By contrast, ABT and NYCB *alone* with their second companies are well over 200 people... and there's at least 10 other companies like them, and that's only the first tier of high quality ballet companies alone... in the US alone. Skating has very different goals and pressures than ballet (and definitely very different than dance in general).

I have to wonder if some day a bright young grad student isnt going to do a PHD thesis on the physics and effects of skating on young bodies. Lucinda Ruh's brain was a victum of course but what about the human developing skeleton? We now live in a world with the technology (small g meters and accelerometers, detailed imagry) to do the study.

(I am not a business person, but I get the WSJ cause if you work the specials, you can get it dirt cheep and there is some intellegent interesting articles in there you dont see in our press, like how some Brazilian ranchers are working toward sustainability.)
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-physics-of-figure-skating/

 

[thedude]

I ponied up the $1 for 2 months. Some parts that struck me are as follows: Tom Z says the ladies doing quads can do them because they are "very strong." I mean...if that's the case and that's the answer...why can't all ladies do off ice training to become "very strong." What is it about these ladies that make them stronger than the other ladies?

A professor at UT Austin who is an expert on growth, maturation and youth sports says he is worried about the effect of skating on health, particularly training a bunch of quads when the body is still developing, particularly in the feet. He says they are still children, not miniature adults, and skating should change to accommodate the needs of the child.

Hope this paraphrasing is ok.

Tom Z definitely sounds like a coach and not a sports scientists. The quote from the article is "the Russians are wicked strong,.., they're not just lean. Their bodies can handle this; it's why they're doing it"

"He’s also convinced that if skaters learn a skill young they can keep it into adulthood. “The point
is, it’s in your muscles, so as long as you keep stimulating the pathway, it stays,” he said.
Still, he warns, for skaters seeking to emulate the Russians it will require an even earlier commitment
to the sport in order to lock in triple jumps at 10 years old and then move on to the years required to
master the timing and takeoff for quads."

The interesting thing in the article is that the two women coaches, Evelyn Kramer and Linda Leaver, expressed skepticism about the longevity of quads post puberty.

 

[ice coverage]

Tom Z definitely sounds like a coach and not a sports scientists. …

The interesting thing in the article is that the two women coaches, Evelyn Kramer and Linda Leaver, expressed skepticism about the longevity of quads post puberty.

Evelyn Kramer and Linda Leaver are not sports scientists either, AFAIK.

So I'm not sure why you are pointing out that Tom Z is not a sports scientist.
All three are coaches giving their opinions.

BTW: One of the other quotes from TZ in the article is: "it's uncharted territory."

ETA: I mean the full article that I read in the hard-copy WSJ.​

BTW #2: TZ does have an academic degree in kinesiology, IIRC. He does have a background in sports science, although his profession is coaching, not sports science.

---

That's interesting! We did have some news articles about skating in our paper when Katia and Harley won Junior World's and tragically when Denis Ten was killed, but it's not a common thing. ...

In the Mon Oct 28 hard-copy edition of WSJ (which does cover sports on a regular basis), its sports page consisted of one article on rugby (smaller headline and a tiny photo), plus the article on figure skating (bigger headline and a giant photo of Trusova mid-air during a jump).
(Plus an unrelated weather map and crossword puzzle.)

BTW, in the U.S., rugby is not what I would call a mainstream sport -- at least not in terms of international/professional competition.

Hope for your sake that Australian newspapers will have more articles about skating … especially leading up to 2021 Four Continents.

---

… Interesting! I haven't heard Tom Z mentioned in a while, does he still have top skaters? ...

Tom Z was with Ting Cui at U.S. Classic. (She has not competed since then -- withdrew from her GPs because of injury. )
For this season, I think she would be considered his top skater.

(Haven Denny and Brandon Frazier got some jump training with Tom Z some months ago, but he is not a primary coach for them.)

 

[gkelly]

There seems comparatively little health research devoted to skaters. IMO the best thing would be to develop partnerships between universities and the larger skating rinks... Detroit, Montreal, LA, and Boston would be good ones, and U of Florida and the Florida training centers, or UCCS and the rinks in CO Springs.

There has already been a tradition of such research being conducted at University of Delaware.
https://www.facebook.com/udkaap/pos...-to-the-university-of-delaw/1526118820854269/

No reason it couldn't be expanded, if there are researchers interested in skating-specific questions, or funders ready to offer up money to get them interested.

But dance isn't a competition, it's an art. There's a lot of companies and a lot of places (well, compared to skating), and it's a big field where most people can find some kind of place. Skating is a sport and only one person wins. There's only three people going to worlds, max, from this country, and far fewer career opportunities in the sport once you're retired at 20-25ish. By contrast, ABT and NYCB *alone* with their second companies are well over 200 people... and there's at least 10 other companies like them, and that's only the first tier of high quality ballet companies alone... in the US alone. Skating has very different goals and pressures than ballet (and definitely very different than dance in general).

Excellent points.

 

[moonvine]

Evelyn Kramer and Linda Leaver are not sports scientists either, AFAIK.

So I'm not sure why you are pointing out that Tom Z is not a sports scientist.
All three are coaches giving their opinions.

BTW: One of the other quotes from TZ in the article is: "it's uncharted territory."

ETA: I mean the full article that I read in the hard-copy WSJ.​

BTW #2: TZ does have an academic degree in kinesiology, IIRC. He does have a background in sports science, although his profession is coaching, not sports science.

---

In the Mon Oct 28 hard-copy edition of WSJ (which does cover sports on a regular basis), its sports page consisted of one article on rugby (smaller headline and a tiny photo), plus the article on figure skating (bigger headline and a giant photo of Trusova mid-air during a jump).
(Plus an unrelated weather map and crossword puzzle.)

BTW, in the U.S., rugby is not what I would call a mainstream sport -- at least not in terms of international/professional competition.

Hope for your sake that Australian newspapers will have more articles about skating … especially leading up to 2021 Four Continents.

---

Tom Z was with Ting Cui at U.S. Classic. (She has not competed since then -- withdrew from her GPs because of injury. )
For this season, I think she would be considered his top skater.

(Haven Denny and Brandon Frazier got some jump training with Tom Z some months ago, but he is not a primary coach for them.)

But there is an actual sports scientist at UT Austin quoted in the article who says they are still children and that the sport needs to accommodate the children rather than the children changing to meet the requirements of the sport. And I think we all need to remember that a 13, 14 and even 15 year old is still a child. While they are focused, hard working and often very bright children, they can’t even drive a car yet. There are many decisions they can’t legally make. And throwing my 2 cents in as a therapist, their brains are not close to being fully developed yet.

 

[ice coverage]

But there is an actual sports scientist at UT Austin quoted in the article who says they are still children and that the sport needs to accommodate the children rather than the children changing to meet the requirements of the sport. And I think we all need to remember that a 13, 14 and even 15 year old is still a child. While they are focused, hard working and often very bright children, they can’t even drive a car yet. There are many decisions they can’t legally make. And throwing my 2 cents in as a therapist, their brains are not close to being fully developed yet.

I do not have access to the full online article that is behind the WSJ paywall.
Evidently it contains additional stuff that is not in the hard-copy WSJ article (which would not be surprising).
The hard-copy article does not include anything from any sports scientist.

Just curious: What is the name of the UT sports scientist who is quoted in the online WSJ article?
Especially if(?) he has done research specifically on skating, then I will keep an eye out for any comments elsewhere from him that are not behind a paywall.

 

[Mathman]

The sport needs to accommodate the children rather than the children changing to meet the requirements of the sport.

Child Sumo wrestlers must accommodate to the sport. They accomplish this through diet and training.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/30/09/42D140ED00000578-0-image-a-5_1501402942956.jpg

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

"He’s also convinced that if skaters learn a skill young they can keep it into adulthood. “The point
is, it’s in your muscles, so as long as you keep stimulating the pathway, it stays,” he said.
Still, he warns, for skaters seeking to emulate the Russians it will require an even earlier commitment
to the sport in order to lock in triple jumps at 10 years old and then move on to the years required to
master the timing and takeoff for quads."

I'm not sure if I agree with Tom. While I think the athletes retain the muscle memory, the bodily changes (especially in women) often require revamping the jump technique of some of these more difficult jumps. I think about Mao, whose axel looked much different comparing it in 2006 and 2010.

 

[moonvine]

I do not have access to the full online article that is behind the WSJ paywall.
Evidently it contains additional stuff that is not in the hard-copy WSJ article (which would not be surprising).
The hard-copy article does not include anything from any sports scientist.

Just curious: What is the name of the UT sports scientist who is quoted in the online WSJ article?
Especially if(?) he has done research specifically on skating, then I will keep an eye out for any comments elsewhere from him that are not behind a paywall.

Hi ice coverage

This is the PHd at UT Austin. I'm not entirely sure he is a "sports scientist." I may have misspoken. He is Robert Malina, a University of Texas at Austin professor emeritus of kinesiology, and an expert on growth, maturation and youth sports performance. I had to look up kinesiology, which is "Kinesiology is the scientific study of human or non-human body movement. Kinesiology "addresses physiological, biomechanical, and psychological dynamic principles and mechanisms of movement." I had it confused with kinesthesiology, which is "the medical and therapeutic study of the movement of muscles and joints." Being an expert in youth sports performance is something, but i'm not sure it makes him a "sports scientist." I guess it may be like beauty and in the eye of the beholder.

 

[moonvine]

Child Sumo wrestlers must accommodate to the sport. They accomplish this through diet and training.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/30/09/42D140ED00000578-0-image-a-5_1501402942956.jpg

That was a quote from Robert Malina, professor emeritus at UT Austin. It is his belief "shrug."

 

[Princessroja]

I have to wonder if some day a bright young grad student isnt going to do a PHD thesis on the physics and effects of skating on young bodies. Lucinda Ruh's brain was a victum of course but what about the human developing skeleton? We now live in a world with the technology (small g meters and accelerometers, detailed imagry) to do the study.

(I am not a business person, but I get the WSJ cause if you work the specials, you can get it dirt cheep and there is some intellegent interesting articles in there you dont see in our press, like how some Brazilian ranchers are working toward sustainability.)
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-physics-of-figure-skating/

Quite frankly, it amazes me that it hasn't already been done. Sports science and dance science are big fields. Skating seems not to have capitalized on much, if any, of this interest. And as someone who's spent some time in academia, it also amazes me that no researchers have been interested enough to take up the subject. Figure skating isn't *that* unusual. There's research on the most arcane topics; skating should have merited more than the little interest it's gotten.

 

[moonvine]

Quite frankly, it amazes me that it hasn't already been done. Sports science and dance science are big fields. Skating seems not to have capitalized on much, if any, of this interest. And as someone who's spent some time in academia, it also amazes me that no researchers have been interested enough to take up the subject. Figure skating isn't *that* unusual. There's research on the most arcane topics; skating should have merited more than the little interest it's gotten.

The ISU has done research on pairs. Specifically on quad throws. Unfortunately I can’t direct you to it because I got it from Jimmie Santee on Skate Radio. I do consider him a very reliable source though.

 

[Thrashergurl]

I remember when Tara and Michelle were all the craze. And then Sasha Cohen with her quad attempts. And Miki Ando. Quads are not new. The question will be if these 2 girls will be landing them in a year or 2. I’ll be very impressed if they’re able to maintain the quad

 

[Mathman]

That was a quote from Robert Malina, professor emeritus at UT Austin. It is his belief "shrug."

I think you misunderstood the thrust of my post. I am appalled and horrified that in order to participate in a sport a child must turn his body into a grotesque caricature. I am agreeing with the professor.

 

[moonvine]

I think you misunderstood the thrust of my post. I am appalled and horrified that in order to participate in a sport a child must turn his body into a grotesque caricature. I am agreeing with the professor.

I'm really sorry I misunderstood you. My apologies.

 

[IleK]

I remember when Tara and Michelle were all the craze. And then Sasha Cohen with her quad attempts. And Miki Ando. Quads are not new. The question will be if these 2 girls will be landing them in a year or 2. I’ll be very impressed if they’re able to maintain the quad

I wonder that too...I am not good at seing the wrong edges, maybe only some very obvious underrotations. But I wonder how come Medv never had problems with her lutz edge when she was winning everything, and then when Alina came on the scene, everything hit her: injuries, wrong edges, underrotations. And now when the new generation came into scene, suddenly Alina flutzes and Liza lips. I repeat, I cant' see that, but I trusted the judges when Alina won her gold medals with clean edges, not even a !. So... I can understand that body changes can affect the rotations, especially if the skater has a bad technique, but can they also affect the edge? Or everything is just very subjective, in 2 years from now the now 15 girls will be "too old" and their quads will no longer be quads and even their triples will be called as underrotated.

- - - Updated - - -

I remember when Tara and Michelle were all the craze. And then Sasha Cohen with her quad attempts. And Miki Ando. Quads are not new. The question will be if these 2 girls will be landing them in a year or 2. I’ll be very impressed if they’re able to maintain the quad

I wonder that too...I am not good at seing the wrong edges, maybe only some very obvious underrotations. But I wonder how come Medv never had problems with her lutz edge when she was winning everything, and then when Alina came on the scene, everything hit her: injuries, wrong edges, underrotations. And now when the new generation came into scene, suddenly Alina flutzes and Liza lips. I repeat, I cant' see that, but I trusted the judges when Alina won her gold medals with clean edges, not even a !. So... I can understand that body changes can affect the rotations, especially if the skater has a bad technique, but can they also affect the edge? Or everything is just very subjective, in 2 years from now the now 15 girls will be "too old" and their quads will no longer be quads and even their triples will be called as underrotated.

 

[lzxnl]

I wonder that too...I am not good at seing the wrong edges, maybe only some very obvious underrotations. But I wonder how come Medv never had problems with her lutz edge when she was winning everything, and then when Alina came on the scene, everything hit her: injuries, wrong edges, underrotations. And now when the new generation came into scene, suddenly Alina flutzes and Liza lips. I repeat, I cant' see that, but I trusted the judges when Alina won her gold medals with clean edges, not even a !. So... I can understand that body changes can affect the rotations, especially if the skater has a bad technique, but can they also affect the edge? Or everything is just very subjective, in 2 years from now the now 15 girls will be "too old" and their quads will no longer be quads and even their triples will be called as underrotated.

- - - Updated - - -



I wonder that too...I am not good at seing the wrong edges, maybe only some very obvious underrotations. But I wonder how come Medv never had problems with her lutz edge when she was winning everything, and then when Alina came on the scene, everything hit her: injuries, wrong edges, underrotations. And now when the new generation came into scene, suddenly Alina flutzes and Liza lips. I repeat, I cant' see that, but I trusted the judges when Alina won her gold medals with clean edges, not even a !. So... I can understand that body changes can affect the rotations, especially if the skater has a bad technique, but can they also affect the edge? Or everything is just very subjective, in 2 years from now the now 15 girls will be "too old" and their quads will no longer be quads and even their triples will be called as underrotated.

If you compare Alina's lutzes now to when she won the Olympics, her lutz has indeed regressed significantly. The edge is shallower, more prerotation and more muscling of her jumps. I'm not going to comment on why, however. The videos are there for you to see.

 

[thedude]

I'm not sure if I agree with Tom. While I think the athletes retain the muscle memory, the bodily changes (especially in women) often require revamping the jump technique of some of these more difficult jumps. I think about Mao, whose axel looked much different comparing it in 2006 and 2010.

I don't agree him with either. He is coaching You Young, so he has an incentive to say that he can coach quads and have his skaters keep them. On the other hand, you have two women coaches, who have probably experienced what it was like for them when they went through puberty or coached several elite athletes who went through puberty, expressing doubt.

Even you take Russians and the quads out of the argument, I would argue that many elite women skaters struggle with their triples as they get older. The idea that training harder and muscle memory will take of the rest is dubious. There's been plenty of women skaters who train hard, and still had difficulties post puberty. If anything their training has to adjust for a different body and not their body of a early teen.

It's hard not to notice the dramatic difference in body composition of the skaters on the podium between skaters in their late teens and early 20s vs 15-16 yr olds.

 

[ice coverage]

... He is coaching You Young, so he has an incentive to say that he can coach quads and have his skaters keep them. ...

Tom Z no longer is coaching Young You, per her ISU bio -- which lists him as a former coach.

(At U.S. Classic, Gambill and Hamada were coaching Young. Tom Z was at the competition [for Ting], but as far as I could see, he was not working with Young at all.)

---

Hi ice coverage

This is the PHd at UT Austin. ... He is Robert Malina, a University of Texas at Austin professor emeritus of kinesiology, and an expert on growth, maturation and youth sports performance. ...

Thanks for replying with his name, moonvine.