The Zayak and Quad Limitation Rule

[Old Cat Lady]

This repetition rule clearly benefits all the other guys who don't have to change their layouts and hurts the guys with great diversity of quads..

Doesn't hurt skaters with the greatest diversity of quads at all. Hurts skaters who need to repeat quads in order to be competitive and skaters with poor 3 axels.

Hoping this motivates someone like Chen or Uno to simply add in quads they can do but don't always throw in there (like Chen's 4L and Uno's 4S).

Not worth it. If they're not doing it now, either they're sacrificing points to include them in their layout or are so inconsistent with them that they are highly unlikely to land them.

a fall on a 4l = 5.25. fall on a 4s = 4.85. lose even more points on PCS.
triple toe with +3 GOE (which is fairly easy in new system) is worth 5.46 or 6.3 with +5 GOE

Unless they're ok with just jumping and praying as their competition strategy

 

[yyyskate]

this rule hurts bad 3A jumpers e.g. Nathan, Nathan may have more variety of quads, but since now man can only repeat one quad and one triple (have to pick one type of triple), Nathan can NOT repeat the most valuable triple 3A.:scowl: just for the status quo (Ofc Nathan can try to perfect his 3A but so as other men to learn new type of quad)
remember, Vincent's BV at 2018OG with 5 quad (repeat only one quad 4lz) and repeat 3A has HIGHER bv than Nathan's 6 quads at OG (repeat 2 quads 4F and 4T) IIRC it is 100+ vs 98+

and all Nathan's main competitors Yuzuru, Shoma, Boyang, Kolyada, Vincent all have consistent highest BV triple (3A) to repeat and they has been doing that and being comfortable with that before.

 

[draqq]

this rule hurts bad 3A jumpers e.g. Nathan, Nathan may have more variety of quads, but since now man can only repeat one quad and one triple (have to pick one type of triple), Nathan can NOT repeat the most valuable triple 3A.:scowl: just for the status quo (Ofc Nathan can try to perfect his 3A but so as other men to learn new type of quad)
remember, Vincent's BV at 2018OG with 5 quad (repeat only one quad 4lz) and repeat 3A has HIGHER bv than Nathan's 6 quads at OG (repeat 2 quads 4F and 4T) IIRC it is 100+ vs 98+

and all Nathan's main competitors Yuzuru, Shoma, Boyang, Kolyada, Vincent all have consistent highest BV triple (3A) to repeat and they has been doing that and being comfortable with that before.

Possibly. Since Nathan can do five of the quad types and can repeat one of them, he only needs to do the 3A once. He can then promptly upgrade to include another 3T somewhere instead of doing the 2T like most of the other skaters. Chen has far more options here than other top skaters as far as jump selection.

4Lz+3T
4F
4Lo
4S
4T
3A
Another quad, probably another 4T+3T or something safer like 3Lz+3T or 3F+1Lo+3S. Or if he's going risky, another 4Lz+3T.

Really, the emphasis on GOE is going to hurt Chen more. It's not about BV so much anymore as the execution of the elements. Chen just needs to improve his jump landings, make them cleaner, prettier, and with strong flow-out to get higher GOEs with the arsenal he already has because Hanyu can get +3s or higher on all his jumps.

 

[draqq]

Ok. But quints can be repeated twice??

Har har! If someone does throw a quint in, I think it would be called an illegal element. So you can technically repeat them as many times as you darn well please!

 

[HanDomi]

The 5 goe scale is good for Hanyu only if this will be judged correctly which I don't believe it will be.

 

[moriel]

Ok. But quints can be repeated twice??

Probably wont be worth it. I mean, look at what they did to 4A.
Chances are a quint with fall will be worth less than a triple.

 

[Mathman]

Chances are a quint with fall will be worth less than a triple.

Don't fall.

 

[moriel]

Don't fall.

that literally means "don't do a quint".

 

[yume]

Don't fall.

I assume that skaters who fall on triples shoudn't do triples.....

 

[Mathman]

Well, back on topic I agree with those posters who think that this new rule has a kind of ad hoc vibe to it. I wouldn't be surprised if the ISU revisited it in the next two or three years.

To me, it seems clear that whatever your quad arsenal is or is not, under the new rules you have to do two triple Axels if you want to maximize your total base values. This should relatively benefit a skater with a strong triple Axel regardless of any other consideration.

 

[gsk8]

What name did they attribute to the quad limitation? Should we make one up?

 

[frida80]

What name did they attribute to the quad limitation? Should we make one up?

I don't think we can attribute one. I think only Nathan,Yuzuru and Vincent have repeated two quads in one program.

Did Shoma try it? I can't remember al his 2018 layouts.

 

[Ella5555]

They enacted the rule shortly after the 2018 Worlds in which Nathan landed 6 quads and the rest of final group had falls. So did they enact the rule because Nathan was so far ahead of the field or because the rest of final group had so many falls? If the former, it should be named the Nathan Rule. If the latter, maybe the name should be a hyphenated combo of the names of the other five men in the last group. LOL.

 

[el henry]

that literally means "don't do a quint".

You say that like it’s a bad thing

Don’t fall. And if falling is the only way to “do” a quint, well, you pays your money and you takes your choice

 

[frida80]

They enacted the rule shortly after the 2018 Worlds in which Nathan landed 6 quads and the rest of final group had falls. So did they enact the rule because Nathan was so far ahead of the field or because the rest of final group had so many falls? If the former, it should be named the Nathan Rule. If the latter, maybe the name should be a hyphenated combo of the names of the other five men in the last group. LOL.

But those are two different issues. The lower BV and -5/+5 were meant to address the issues that happened in the final group. Now you can't use a failed quad attempt as a way to gain more points over a successful triple. The multiple quad rule was submitted before Worlds I think. And only two men really were affected. Yuzuru and Nathan.

I'll have to check, because I can't remember when that was submitted to the ISU.

 

[oatmella]

I believe +/- 5 was submitted before Worlds. I thought the multiple quad rule change was proposed later, seemed that Nathan's 6 quad FS at Olympics/Worlds was a factor.

 

[Mathman]

I assume that skaters who fall on triples shoudn't do triples.....

They should do triples, but if they fall they will be marked down.

As for the limitation on repeated quads, to me it is just an extension of the Zayak principle. You don't want skaters to be able to rack up points by doing the same thing over and over.

Without the limitation a skater could start off with 2 quad toes and 2 quad Salchows -- that's a lot of quadding and doesn't contribute much of interest to the program.

With the limitation, if you do want to dominate by outquadding everyone else, then you have to present a quad loop or flip or Lutz.

Edit: By the way, they had a similar problem with the ladies. Everyone was doing 2 triple Lutzes and 2 triple flips. Yes, that maximized the points, but it meant that more than half of your jumps were pretty much the same. (Especially if you had a flutz.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Without the limitation a skater could start off with 2 quad toes and 2 quad Salchows -- that's a lot of quadding and doesn't contribute much of interest to the program.

With the limitation, if you do want to dominate by outquadding everyone else, then you have to present a quad loop or flip or Lutz.

Edit: By the way, they had a similar problem with the ladies. Everyone was doing 2 triple Lutzes and 2 triple flips. Yes, that maximized the points, but it meant that more than half of your jumps were pretty much the same. (Especially if you had a flutz.)

I'm not sure what you are advocating for here. Any skater maximizing their score will repeat two jumps twice, whether it's a salchow/toe, flip/lutz, or any other combination of two jumps. I see no reason to limit skaters to repeating one quad, but potentially two triples (and always two doubles), other than to disadvantage strong jumpers.

 

[sheetz]

The fact is that it's actually extremely rare for any skater to repeat two different quads in a program because that strategy requires a very high success rate on landing them. If the jumps are not consistent you are constantly in danger of getting a +REP penalty.

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure what you are advocating for here. Any skater maximizing their score will repeat two jumps twice, whether it's a salchow/toe, flip/lutz, or any other combination of two jumps.

I don't know what I am advocating for either. I guess if I am advocating for anything it would be that the rules should encourage the most interesting variety of programs.

I understand that this is hard to accomplish with an add-up-the-points system. If a triple Lutz gets more points than any other triple, then obviously a skater with only triples will do as many triple Lutzes as the rules allow. The purpose of the Zayak rules is to discourage this.

I think the thrust of the rules about repetitions is that a nifty combination deserves to be considered as a "different" element. So if you do a 3Lz and then a 3Lz+3T, you have shown two different skills, not one skill twice.

Should quads be treated differently? I think the ISU's goal, both with the limitation on repetitions and (more importantly) with the reduction in base value for quads, was that they didn't want competitions to be decided by nothing else except who did the most quads. I, for one, would lose interest if every men's program was 4T, 4T+2T, 4S, 4S+2T, pose, bow, clap -- even though that program would collect a lot of points.