Thoughts on the season so far

[clairecloutier]

I don't think there's any conspiracy against Johnny on the part of the USFSA.

The simple truth is that Evan has generally skated better the last two seasons than Johnny. Evan has World medals, and Johnny doesn't. The USFSA usually promotes whatever skaters are doing the best on the World level.

That said, I do believe that Johnny is not universally popular within the skating establishment/USFSA. The American skating establishment expects its skaters to exhibit a certain public image of modesty, pleasantness, and good sportsmanship. Johnny does not comply with this at all. He is not modest, can be a bit unpleasant, and doesn't always give his competitors much credit. Also bothersome to the skating establishment is his well-known preference for all things Russian. We cannot forget that much of the skating establishment is of Cold War vintage and still carries a bit of the Eastern bloc vs. Western bloc mentality. Furthermore, Russian skaters were dominant in the sport for much of the past 10 years and our main competition for medals. So to see Johnny parading around in a CCCP jacket, at the Olympics no less, is guaranteed not to warm the hearts of the USFSA. And on top of all this, Johnny is generally considered lazy and undisciplined by the establishment. And who can argue with this perception when he is doing fashion shows in the middle of the season and fails to medal at the Olympics partly because he missed the bus from the Olympic Village? This is simply not what the USFSA wants to see in its skaters.

Evan, on the other hand, is everything the USFSA wants. He is successful, dedicated, hard-working, and generally pleasant and respectful in interviews. He is also popular with audiences and knows how to sell programs and win.

The one thing that no one in the USFSA will argue is that Johnny Weir, whatever his "faults", is simply one of the most talented skaters in the world. As Kurt Browing said, Johnny has "more talent in his little finger" than many other skaters have in their whole body. All of Johnny's foibles will be forgiven (and have been forgiven in the past) if he skates to his potential.

 

[flying camel]

Out of all the programs I watched I have to say I love B& A's LP. It is beautiful. I can watch it over and over. It would be nice if they could win worlds with this program. I have not seen any other program I feel that way about.:thumbsup:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I haven't checked anything so can anyone tell me, what score Evan got for his attempted Quad, and If he had landed it properly would the additional points bring his score up to or above Johnny's?

Joe

 

[Winnipeg]

I So to see Johnny parading around in a CCCP jacket, at the Olympics no less, is guaranteed not to warm the hearts of the USFSA. And on top of all this, Johnny is generally considered lazy and undisciplined by the establishment. And who can argue with this perception when he is doing fashion shows in the middle of the season and fails to medal at the Olympics partly because he missed the bus from the Olympic Village? This is simply not what the USFSA wants to see in its skaters.

Did he really do that:scratch::disapp:

Shows bad judgement and immaturity IMO:disapp::disapp::disagree:..............it's reasonable to expect a certain level of decorum when an athlete is representing their country at an event................

 

[museksk8r]

I So to see Johnny parading around in a CCCP jacket, at the Olympics no less, is guaranteed not to warm the hearts of the USFSA. And on top of all this, Johnny is generally considered lazy and undisciplined by the establishment. And who can argue with this perception when he is doing fashion shows in the middle of the season and fails to medal at the Olympics partly because he missed the bus from the Olympic Village? This is simply not what the USFSA wants to see in its skaters.

Did he really do that:scratch::disapp:

Shows bad judgement and immaturity IMO:disapp::disapp::disagree:..............it's reasonable to expect a certain level of decorum when an athlete is representing their country at an event................

Yeah, he received a lot of heat for his behavior at the Olympics, even death threats.

 

[attyfan]

I haven't checked anything so can anyone tell me, what score Evan got for his attempted Quad, and If he had landed it properly would the additional points bring his score up to or above Johnny's?

Joe

Here is the link to the scoring sheet:

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpchn07/gpchn07_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Evan got -3 GOEs on his quad attempt, but was less than two full points off of Johnny in his TES -- so he would have overtaken Johnny in that portion, if he had landed a clean quad. What this would have done to his PCS, and if it would be enough to overtake Johnny in the "presentation" portion is unknown.

 

[museksk8r]

Here is the link to the scoring sheet:

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpchn07/gpchn07_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Evan got -3 GOEs on his quad attempt, but was less than two full points off of Johnny in his TES -- so he would have overtaken Johnny in that portion, if he had landed a clean quad. What this would have done to his PCS, and if it would be enough to overtake Johnny in the "presentation" portion is unknown.

Also, Evan's first 3Axel that got downgraded to a 2Axel, which REALLY hurt him. Had Evan nailed everything he had planned, he would have easily won.

 

[Winnipeg]

If you really want to talk about unfair promotion, you really should be focusing on the USA ladies. Emily appears to me to get a lot of unreasonable promotion compared to Kimmie. Emily has produced a 7th place at Olympics and an 8th and a 9th place finish at Worlds. Kimmie has produced a 6th place at Olympics and a 1st and a 4th place finish at Worlds. Kimmie is more consistent and, like Lysacek, always attempts the technical difficulty necessary to compete with the international elite by going for a 3+3 combination in the SP and in the LP where she normally attempts 2 of them. Despite this, Emily IMO is presented as the national darling with seemingly more camera and publication coverage than Kimmie. It's certainly not her results that are getting her the attention, so I assume she must be favored because of her bubbly personality and her resemblance to Sarah. Emily in some ways is like the American version of Mira Leung. All PR hype with little substance. Kimmie, on the other hand, is more business-like in her approach, quietly getting the job done for the American ladies with her gutsy competitive spirit and seemingly unphased by the spotlight. Whatever it is, I see it as unfair to Kimmie. At least Evan does produce results and medals, which are promotion worthy.

I agree with your views on Kimmie - I really like her attitude and approach to skating.:thumbsup::thumbsup::yes::yes:

She seems very mature for her age, and is quietly competent. She interviews well and handles stupid questions like "are you proud of yourself for what you did out there' with much tact and aplomb for one so young. I like her style big time both on and off the ice


WRT Emily............I can only think the hype is because of her sister's success and because she was 2nd in USA last year? true? :scratch:

Her 2nd place finish at US Nationals led me to believe she would do much better in the GP series than she did. I thought her scores were lower than expected but maybe she under rotated? How do you think she will fare at the 2008 US Nationals? With such depth in this field, she may not go to worlds?

She does tend to ger a lot of attention and hype, especially the Harvard thing, which is a great accomplishemtn but do we really have to hear about it a zillion times.....................

 

[Winnipeg]

Yeah, he received a lot of heat for his behavior at the Olympics, even death threats.

YIkes!!! I think his behaviour showed bad judgement but death threats seem a tad excessive..............but maybe he likes the attention?

 

[museksk8r]

I agree with your views on Kimmie - I really like her attitude and approach to skating.:thumbsup::thumbsup::yes::yes:

She seems very mature for her age, and is quietly competent. She interviews well and handles stupid questions like "are you proud of yourself for what you did out there' with much tact and aplomb for one so young. I like her style big time both on and off the ice


WRT Emily............I can only think the hype is because of her sister's success and because she was 2nd in USA last year? true? :scratch:

Her 2nd place finish at US Nationals led me to believe she would do much better in the GP series than she did. I thought her scores were lower than expected but maybe she under rotated? How do you think she will fare at the 2008 US Nationals? With such depth in this field, she may not go to worlds?

She does tend to ger a lot of attention and hype, especially the Harvard thing, which is a great accomplishemtn but do we really have to hear about it a zillion times.....................

Honestly, I feel Emily is going to benefit this year because of Caroline Zhang and Mirai Nagasu not being age-eligible to go to senior Worlds. I expect Emily to place behind Kimmie, Ashley, Caroline, and possibly Mirai come Nationals unless she makes some serious technical upgrades to her programs. Her difficulty is severely lacking in comparison to these 4. Plus, who knows what Rachael Flatt has up her sleeve come Nationals. She has done 3+3s in the past, but I have not seen her in competition yet this season. I expect Emily will get much needed help from the judges at Nationals in her PCS score because she sure isn't holding off the competition with her TES, or lack thereof. I would not be surprised at all to see the final standings at Nationals be: 1. Kimmie, 2-4. Ashley, Caroline, Mirai (in any order), 5. Emily, 6. Rachael, 7. Bebe, and 8. Alissa. Right now I would expect the world team to be: Kimmie, Ashley, and Emily. I expect the title to be a toss-up between Kimmie and Ashley. I would be surprised to see the USFSA annoint Caroline, Mirai, or Rachael as National Champion since none of them can go to senior Worlds, but who knows? Anything can happen!

 

[museksk8r]

YIkes!!! I think his behaviour showed bad judgement but death threats seem a tad excessive..............but maybe he likes the attention?

No, I definitely don't think Johnny wants the kind of attention that warrants a death threat. Michelle Kwan has also received death threats in the past, specifically after she won Nationals in 1996 and news of that was broadcast during the '96 Grand Prix Final. That is way out of hand! Death threats are NEVER the way to go for anyone, celebrity or not. It's a really sad state of affairs in the world for some sicko to resort to such malicious tactics, whether it's serious or joking. It's truly in very bad taste!

 

[OldSkaterMom]

There was a lot of flack about Johnny's behavior, but I never heard of any death threats. That is a bit extreme.

I was just adding it up. If Evan nailed everything in his program as planned, he would have scored 162.25 points. Johnny scored 151.98. That is a 10.27 point difference. That is not beyond Evan's reach. His personal best for the FS is 159something, scored at 4 CC last year. A new personal best of 81.55 was earned for the SP at CoC and a new personal best total score. JW doesn't have anything to be smug about.

 

[flying camel]

I So to see Johnny parading around in a CCCP jacket, at the Olympics no less, is guaranteed not to warm the hearts of the USFSA. And on top of all this, Johnny is generally considered lazy and undisciplined by the establishment. And who can argue with this perception when he is doing fashion shows in the middle of the season and fails to medal at the Olympics partly because he missed the bus from the Olympic Village? This is simply not what the USFSA wants to see in its skaters.

Did he really do that:scratch::disapp:

Shows bad judgement and immaturity IMO:disapp::disapp::disagree:..............it's reasonable to expect a certain level of decorum when an athlete is representing their country at an event................

I think Johnny learned a huge lesson about all that. I am sure when the next Olympics rolls around he will keep a low profile.

 

[Tinymavy15]

If anybody is interested, my thoughts are:

Kimmie.... very dissipointed in her, she does not even seem to be trying to be artistic. Last year there was an effort. She will probably win nationals hands down becasue Caroline can't seem to put out a clean LP and USFSA wont want the US cahmp to be too young for worlds. Caroline is beautiful in the SP, but at both events had a litle meltdown in the LP. Are we looking at another Sasha? Her Ave Maria is beautiful, but she is only skating 50% of what it was in practice. If she puts in a little more speed and does the two spread eagles seemlessly into her last lutz.... it will be beautiful. Miki... I think she can do it again.

I love Evan's programs, but think that Johnny will beat him at nationals. Johny is a force to be recokoned with this season. He is back with a vengance. Stepane Lambiel is a mess... his artisty is great as usall, but that won't help him at worlds. I don't expect to see much of him. after this season.

 

[HCOSurfer]

Kimmie.... very dissipointed in her, she does not even seem to be trying to be artistic. Last year there was an effort.

You're joking right? IMO this year Kimmie has GREATLY improved her artistry, I LOVE her TFB SP.

 

[dwiggin3]

I agree with your views on Kimmie - I really like her attitude and approach to skating.:thumbsup::thumbsup::yes::yes:

She seems very mature for her age, and is quietly competent. She interviews well and handles stupid questions like "are you proud of yourself for what you did out there' with much tact and aplomb for one so young. I like her style big time both on and off the ice


WRT Emily............I can only think the hype is because of her sister's success and because she was 2nd in USA last year? true? :scratch:

Her 2nd place finish at US Nationals led me to believe she would do much better in the GP series than she did. I thought her scores were lower than expected but maybe she under rotated? How do you think she will fare at the 2008 US Nationals? With such depth in this field, she may not go to worlds?

She does tend to ger a lot of attention and hype, especially the Harvard thing, which is a great accomplishemtn but do we really have to hear about it a zillion times.....................

I suspect that the media likes E. Hughes so much because not only has she made it known that obtaining an education will be part of her overall skating plan, but USFSA has touted it as well. This in and of itself is not a problem - I think its a great aspect of American skating that USFSA tries to encourage higher education amongst its elite athletes. Foolish is the skater who thinks they will forever support themselves with boots, blades and ice. Education IS VERY important and studies have shown, the longer you put it off, the less likely you are to start and finish. Just ask my thesis adviser - He though I'd never come back to finish my degree after I took a year off - and I considered not coming back as well. Now that I'm working on my dissertation I refuse to take time off for fear that I will never get it done.

However, I also am convinced that it has a great deal to do with WHERE she is going to college and how many credits she is taking. If she was going to "Acme State-School" like most of the college level skaters do, it wouldn't be touted so much. But she's at Harvard - which is a difficult school (and it's well known that her siblings have attended Ivies - Yale, Cornell ect, so obviously, they're bright folks) However, I am skeptical that Harvard is that much more difficult than "Acme State-School". I have an advanced degree from an Ivy and I will tell you, it's much harder to get in than to get out - i.e admission v. graduation. Many of my colleagues in higher education that attended much lesser known schools that the Ivies, were required to demonstrate higher levels of academic achievement than I in order to graduate and I'm the one with the fancy alumnus status.

I will however, accept that there is something to be said for attending college full time and skating like she does vs. attending school part time and skating

I'm not disqualifying that skating and attending school is hard and that perhaps it is a bit harder when you are attending an Ivy, but I do not in any way, subscribe to the attitude that she is somehow "special" because she balances Harvard and skating while others balance "Acme State-School" and skating.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[sillylionlove]

in defense of Emily, I can't imagine that it is easy going to school, being away from home for the first time and skating. And remember she was coached her whole life by Bonnie Retzkin and now she is coached by Mark Mitchell which I am sure is also quite a change.

 

[childfreegirl]

If anybody is interested, my thoughts are:

(snip) Caroline can't seem to put out a clean LP and USFSA wont want the US cahmp to be too young for worlds. Caroline is beautiful in the SP, but at both events had a litle meltdown in the LP. Are we looking at another Sasha? Her Ave Maria is beautiful, but she is only skating 50% of what it was in practice. If she puts in a little more speed and does the two spread eagles seemlessly into her last lutz.... it will be beautiful.

Personally, I think it's a little premature to be asking if Caroline is Sasha-esque in her consistancy. She's only 14. This is only her first senior season. The LP for seniors is 30 seconds longer than for juniors. IMO, all this must be taken into account. IIRC, she won everything possible to win as a junior last year other than Nats.

Everyone gushed and raved about this and expected the same thing to happen this year, as a senior. Juniors and seniors are two different animals, so to speak. You can't hold up a competitors last year as the former and compare it to their first as the latter. It's just not fair.

This is not personally directed at you Tiny. It's directed at everyone who has ever done this.

So go ahead and flame me.

 

[bekalc]

Personally, I think it's a little premature to be asking if Caroline is Sasha-esque in her consistancy. She's only 14. This is only her first senior season. The LP for seniors is 30 seconds longer than for juniors. IMO, all this must be taken into account. IIRC, she won everything possible to win as a junior last year other than Nats.

Everyone gushed and raved about this and expected the same thing to happen this year, as a senior. Juniors and seniors are two different animals, so to speak. You can't hold up a competitors last year as the former and compare it to their first as the latter. It's just not fair.

This is not personally directed at you Tiny. It's directed at everyone who has ever done this.

So go ahead and flame me.

You know what I agree wtih you...It's way to early to be comparing Caroline to Sasha and it's not fair to do so either. Sasha wasn't consistent as a Junior. . I remember reading an article where it said, describing new talent before Sasha's national debut, "If Sasha Cohen could get it together" she'd be unbeatable. It seems like they were saying that about Sasha as a Junior.

Caroline, Yu-na, and Mao deserve time to get use to Seniors. (I think people have been criticizing them for not being consistent last year) I don't recall Michelle or Irina being that consistent their first year in Seniors.. .The only skater who really (besides her world debut) came on very strong consistency wise was Tara Lipinsiki and even she had some hick ups. Give it some time.. Really. Now if two years from now, Caroline still can't skate clean programs, then we can compare her to Sasha. But. Not. Right. Now.

Yes, I've compared Sasha/Caroline. But more in terms in style, not in terms of consistency...

 

[feraina]

I feel like I've stumbled upon some alternate universe, where Tinymavyn is criticizing Caroline, and Bekalc is defending her.

Caroline is obviously more comfortable with the short -- she had to put it out for the Japan Int'l Countermatch, she looks like she's had more practice with it. Plus, stamina is less of an issue with the SP, her coach seems to think that fatigue is adversely affecting her LP's. As for a 'meltdown', I thought she skated her 'Ave Maria' admirably well for a very first outing on the GP. She would've scored at least ten points higher without the strict SA technical callers, in other words close to her PB at this early point of the season. As for CoC, she was skating with an ankle injury.

Even Patrick Chan, who now everyone is touting as the next big thing in Men's, had an unremarkable first GP season -- such that almost everyone believes this is his first GP season.

Caroline has a good chance of qualifying for the GPF (I'd say about 55%), I think that's very good for a first GP season, especially since she entered seniors so early (along with Mao, she's only the second skater to enter the GP without being old enough for ISU championships, isn't she?). How many times has Kimmie tried prior to this season?