Tosca has no in-betweens a myth?? My take

[chuckm]

There is a poster on another board who keeps insisting that Cohen's jumps were better than Kwan's, right up to the 3T she fell on. She says Cohen is a better technical skater, has better choreography, and if she had skated clean, Cohen would have won.

If Cohen is a better technical skater, then she wouldn't have fallen 7 times in her last 3 competitions. Choreography is as good as it is executed. If Cohen hadn't fallen, she still would have lost, because her SL was inexplicably flat and lackluster.

But facts don't matter to these sashamaniacs. If they say Sasha is better, she is better, and that's that.

Of course, Kwan has 8 National Championships, 5 World Championships, 3 World silver medals and 2 Olympics medals.

Sasha? She has high hopes.

 

[windspirit]

There is a poster on another board who keeps insisting that Cohen's jumps were better than Kwan's, right up to the 3T she fell on. She says Cohen is a better technical skater, has better choreography, and if she had skated clean, Cohen would have won.

I have just one question: WHY on earth are you (and a few others) bringing those disputes from other boards here? Is GS some kind of a trash bin for all crazed fans' "My skater is better than your skater!" quarrels from all over the Net, for you? Why don't you (and a few other) go fight those infidels where you've found them?

If Cohen is a better technical skater, then she wouldn't have fallen 7 times in her last 3 competitions. Choreography is as good as it is executed. If Cohen hadn't fallen, she still would have lost, because her SL was inexplicably flat and lackluster.

But facts don't matter to these sashamaniacs. If they say Sasha is better, she is better, and that's that.

Of course, Kwan has 8 National Championships, 5 World Championships, 3 World silver medals and 2 Olympics medals.

Sasha? She has high hopes.

Nice try. This is exactly the same rhetoric you accuse others of using.

"Anything she can do
I can do better..."

 

[hockeyfan228]

IUnder CoP, skaters can only have 6 jumping passe, ie all the triples and the double axel, in the program, so it is wise for any skaters including Michelle to practice 3/3

Under both CoP and 6.0 OBO, women can have seven jumps/passes, with a maximum of two combos and/or sequences under CoP, and, from what I've heard but haven't seen documented, up to three combos and/or sequences under 6.0/OBO. For men, it's eight.

 

[mzheng]

[B
Anyway, my point is, some performers can fill up the space just standing there and others can't. I know Michelle's long-time fans have always felt she could do this. For me I've only seen it since last year's Nationals. Whether there was a significant change in Michelle or not, who knows? But I do know that at least IMO, the choreography for Michelle's "Tosca" is just fine--as long as Michelle is doing it. Put it on another skater and I think it probably would seem lacking. But that's what a great performer can do. And Michelle is one of the greats.
Rgirl [/B]

Well said, Rgirl. I'm a long-time Michelle fan, but same as you I see the big change since last National. I like the way she use her own skating, energy, emotion present her program not rely on too much of jam packed choreograghy. My most favorate Michelle competeive LP has been 2003's Natinal up to the point of 2004 National. Now Tosca topped that one.

 

[Bijoux]

Hi fellow forumites

I hate to sound picky, but for the last year the hottest colors in jewelry and fashion have been coral and turqoiuse.

Coral suits her and most women but it was totally wrong for Tosca. Remember Irina's black dress? The best dress she ever had.

I honestly think the costumes Cohen had and Jenny's Roxie copy were totally perfect for their music and skating.

 

[Piel]

When it comes right down to it the only color that REALLY mattered was the color of the medal she took home.

 

[mzheng]

When it comes right down to it the only color that REALLY mattered was the color of the medal she took home.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Re: Hi fellow forumites

I hate to sound picky, but for the last year the hottest colors in jewelry and fashion have been coral and turqoiuse.

Coral suits her and most women but it was totally wrong for Tosca. Remember Irina's black dress? The best dress she ever had.

I honestly think the costumes Cohen had and Jenny's Roxie copy were totally perfect for their music and skating.

Even though Michelle wasn't skating as the character of Tosca, I've heard many productions of Tosca have had her wearing very pastel dresses. Who knows, I thought the cut of the dress looked similar to what an opera singer would wear.

I liked the dress because it really complimented Michelle and instead of distracting it made you pay attention to the skating.

 

[Jimmy Hoffa]

Maybe Kwan should get Ann Patrice McDonough's mother to design her a costume with a picture of a woman jumping off a tower on the bodice. Or better yet, Kwan can break her neck before each performance to symbolize that part.

 

[serenity]

Now, now that is not very nice at all.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jimmy - Yeah, let's have the real ending to Tosca. At the Olys I was hoping Irina would climb up on the boards and jump off which is befitting for the literal interpretation of the opera.

MK doesn't do literal interpretations. She just takes the music and skates to the feeling. Remember Salome? Can you imagine her holding John the Baptiste head for an ending?

The NonKwans are back in force.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

ITA with Windspirit. If certain people are upset with what certain posters are saying about Michelle on other boards, please complain about it on those boards. I've seen Michelle get nothing but praise on GS, even from people who have said she is not their favorite skater. I've seen these other boards too, and IMO the anti-Kwans are not "out in force." Rather it's a few people with very LOUD posts, literally screaming about how it's their right to not like Michelle SO THERE! and "Tosca" was a whole lotta nothing and all kinds of ridiculous stuff. But on those same boards, I've also seen 90% of the other posters say how Michelle was the clear winner of the gold medalist, or that even though they weren't fan she had them in tears, and all kinds of positive things about Michelle's skating. So 5%, maybe 10% at the most of posters on the various boards are saying negative things about Michelle. Please don't try to make it out as if 90% are refusing to see reality. It just ain't so.

KwanisQueen,
You know from my post that ITA with you that "Tosca" doesn't need anything more to it in terms of choreography as long as Michelle is skating it. But I would like to clarify something about Sasha's "Swan Lake." The version she did at Nationals had A LOT of choreography cut out compared to what it had in the GP series. For exampel, at Lalique, she had fw before every triple, just not before the 3/2 combos. Her fwd inside scratch spin was a combo spin consisting of a camel spin into a full sit spin with the leg to the side going up into the fwd scratch. Her spiral sequence included a change edge. Her fw sequence was serpentine, packed with a lot more movement including Russian splits. And her final combo spin was camel into layback into sit into BC.

At Nationals, what was missing from Sasha' "SL" was the fw before the jumps, the camel and sit spin before the fwd inside scratch, the change edge on the spiral, her fw was straightline and a lot simpler, and her final combo was missing the layback. Taking all this out left more time for Sasha to pretty much do nothing. That's why I said "Swan Lake" at Nationals compared to what it had been on the GP circuit was basically gutted.

I'm not making excuses for Sasha. She was rightly judged on what she did at Nationals and what she did was not nearly good enough for the gold medal, at least in the LP. But it's not like Sasha has one locked-down version of "SL." Apparently Wagner felt that given that the juding system would be ordinal not COP, as a strategy she would take out all the extras so that Sasha could concentrate on her jumps. I don't know this, but that's what it looked like to me. Unfortunately for Sasha, the strategy didn't work. IMO, all the changes to "SL" may have worked against Sasha because she never had the chance to get a set version to the point of muscle memory. But even if Sasha had done her most difficult version of "SL" as clean as a whistle at Nats, I still have no doubt Michelle would have won. Michelle skated in a way that was bigger than life and no one else came close to doing that--at least not that I saw.

So ITA that "Tosca" has plenty of choreography in it. If Artunian wants to put more in it, he may only be thinking of preparing Michelle for NEXT year, when it's possible that the COP will be used at Nats and Worlds. But I would hope that when you speak of "SL" that you identify it as the "Nats version of SL" since there were almost as many versions as there were events that Sasha skated in, lol. IMO, it's just a matter of being accurate and fair. If Michelle had different versions of "Tosca" I would think you'd want people to identify which version they meant.
Rgirl

 

[hockeyfan228]

Re: Re: Hi fellow forumites

Even though Michelle wasn't skating as the character of Tosca, I've heard many productions of Tosca have had her wearing very pastel dresses. Who knows, I thought the cut of the dress looked similar to what an opera singer would wear.

In most productions of Tosca, Tosca's dress in Act I is pastel, because it's a day dress. In Act II she is usually dressed in a formal dress of deep red, because she is performing at a service for the royal family. In Act III she wears the same dress as in Act III, although usually with a cape, because she runs out of Scarpia's office after killing him to search for Cavaradossi, and she goes out of doors to do so.

 

[Kwanisqueen81]

Rgirl- You are right (as usual) I am only talking about Swan lake at Nationals. Swan Lake as skated at Cambells was indeed packed with alot of extras and Cherographic intrique, that it was almost to not have been believed. I do feel that sasha did skate with a some sort of new found confidence and calm dispite her fall.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hockeyfan - I remember Callas making her entrance as Tosca at the Met with a Zeferelli Dress. the entire audience went banans. Of course, every diva had Zeferelli dresses after that, and the Met could retire those tired old costumes. He then got directorial jobs at the Met, too.

rGirl et al - Sasha's Campbell's performance was for me an all time great. Whether or not there were more elements or not in that skate is immaterial. Whether Sasha or MK use less elements at Worlds will not affect the outcome of their scores. IMO, they are bing judged on Presentation and it is not easy to decide. Very subjective, indeed. Only the CoP will call it for the sport eventually next year.

Joe

 

[mission99]

I loved every minuet of Michelle's Tosca it was an all time great for me!

 

[Mathman]

Me, too, Mission. Thanks for joining us; wlecome to the forum!

Mathman

 

[mzheng]

Count me as the one love every min of Tosca.

Every her jump is on the beat of music. And some arm movements and foot movement well matched the music perfectly. there are a few very subtle movements if you didn't pay attention you'd thought she was crossover, while actually she was not. There was one place in the middle of program, her free leg was kind 'hang there' to wait the music beat to come, while the whole body was in perfect lean.

I notice several places earlier in the program she deliberately didn't emphasize too much with her hand movement as her did in Campbell version and ABE chesfest version. I think at worlds she might make more emphasizing at those place make it looks changed.

 

[heyang]

I've just re-watched MK's Tosca for the 5th time and admit that I can see a lot more now that I'm:

1 - no longer tense regarding her winning
2 - not as ill as I was on Saturday evening and Sunday.

My favorite part is still where she lands the 2nd lutz and launches into her footwork sequence.

Even with my initial thoughts (of lacking choreography), I still would've given the LP to Kwan if SC had skated clean due to that final burst of emotion.

 

[mzheng]

People kept talking about how empty of Arajanz and Tosca is as far as the choreography concern.

If you compares the Tosca with her earlier programs may be yes. But she didn't skated the way in those jam packed programs as the way (the speed, power, and mostly emotion level) she did in Arajanz and Tosca. I remember her ex-coach Scott Williams last year said, people don't realize that sometimes skating in a high emotional level is more physically exhausted. I guess that's why she can't give out too much in first half of the programs.

If you compares the Arajanz and Tosca to her direct competetors in the same competetion. It has about the same contents as them. Like last year's Sasha at Nats/Worlds, Elena at Worlds, this years Sasha at Nats, etc.