Two Olympic Judges suspended by ISU

[chopinskate]

What 3F?

None. People don't look at where the skater left the ice, and then make inane claims.

But really, this is enough. The two skaters should have been within two points or so if they'd been judges properly. Yuna should have taken it as far as I'm concerned, but she has enough great performances she's given to the sport that mean more than an OGM.

But it just goes to show that judging shouldn't be about these personal feelings, and we do need to count the steps. And the transitions. And the URS...If we are going to judge fairly.

True.

 

[Matt K]

I was looking more into US Ice Dance judge Sharon ROGERS marks for Virtue/Moir, again. To remind everybody, this is the judge who is egregious in lowballing and undermarking V/M every single time in competitions since their undefeated 2016-17 season right through to 2018, marking the American teams equal or higher than V/M more often than not (which is plain laughable). But I see a very disturbing and frightening pattern.

At 2017 Worlds SD, she placed V/M 5th. This is extremely notable because V/M set a new world record in this event at this competition, their strongest SD ever, and possibly one of the best ever, and totally obliterated the competition by more than 5+ points! They beat P/C by more than 5 points in this segment which is what helped V/M win their world title.

Here is how US ice dance judge Sharon ROGERS placed the skaters in the SD:

1) P/C
2) Chock/Bates (!)
3) H/D
4) Shibutanis )(tie with H/D)
...
5) V/M

This seems to be continuing a trend that she started back at 2017 4CC just a month earlier when she put V/M behind Chock/Bates and Shibutanis and tied them with H/D in the SD, and continued her undermarking of V/M in the FDs at both events, but perhaps slightly less stingy in order to escape being "outside the corridor". In the FD, she ranked 1) P/C, 2) Shibutanis so far ahead of every other team and essentially tied H/D and V/M despite H/D completely falling out of a twizzle and placing 10th in that segment.

At the 2018 Olympic Team Event, in the SD, Sharon ROGERS gave V/M low marks and Shibutanis the highest, and tied the Shibutanis for 1st place. She was the only judge NOT to put Shibutanis in 2nd after V/M (which, is purely biased and egregious).

The pattern I see is that she starts egregiously lowballing V/M at the start of the competition (V/M's biggest strength, the SD), and then when other judge's marks are much higher than hers that results in V/M placing 1st overall after the SD when all the results come in, she can adjust in the FD to escape being outside the corridor to avoid being sanctioned.

This is how Sharon ROGERS judged the FD at 2017 Four Continents. Her marks placed Shibutanis and C/B 1st and 2nd respectively, over V/M. What is notable is how her marks to Shibutanis were more than 8 points higher than V/M, and her marks for C/B were more than 6 points ahead of V/M.

 

[OS]

Other people posted 3F UR which was not called either. It's a pointless discussion because the parties involved are biased. I am biased, sure, but I am not attaching labels to opponents.

Yes, I did not count the number of turns. But I was on the stands that day and I saw "the skate of the life" from the winner with tons of passion and desire and just one stepout on a double jump. I saw another skate of the life by Mao who like a samurai gave her all. And I saw a lifeless skate from the silver medalist who herself then said: "I am glad it's all over". And she skated like that. And she lacked one triple. And her spins were the spins from previous ages with the exception of the signature layback. The judges apparently saw it the same way because what is eggregious is to believe that "evil Putin" made ISU judges from various independent from Russia countries push the winner up disregarding what actually happened on the ice.

Sheesh.. not this bs again. Lol... figure skating is not a competition of 'skate of life' or 'passion' and 'desires'. Otherwise, Lenova and Radionova would have been the Russia champion MANY TIMES OVER!!! Or Spiderman would have beaten Chopin every bloomin' time.... esp more quads.

------------------

As for all the dodgy judging. I am so glad this thread exists for people to call them out.

Maybe figureskatingscoring.com can compile a stats of funny judging, funny scores, and apply to who from where!! Soon a pattern emerges!! Call it judges figure scoring

Actually, this is the biggest reason ANONYMOUS JUDGING had to end! So the judges can be accounted for these funny scoring. Otherwise, it gives 'the power that be' overwhelming power to manufacture results by just putting together the 'right' judging panel to favour certain competition results, since only THEY alone are privy to these information.

Information is power. It is so easy to put together panels based on 'favourable' skaters, and 'unfavourable' scoring judges to their potential rivals. Another thing I dislike about the old judging scoring is how they are supposed to be randomised so even the judges themselves can't tell if their score had been accounted for in the right way. Frankly, what is stopping the system to fiddle with the stats via software remotely and judges don't even know if it is their score which has been entered correctly or wrongly. The risk of mismanagement is huge.

A foolproof system is they should make all judge scoring through out their lifetime blockchained, so it can never be modified or changed.

 

[nocturnalis]

I was looking more into US Ice Dance judge Sharon ROGERS marks for Virtue/Moir, again. To remind everybody, this is the judge who is egregious in lowballing and undermarking V/M every single time in competitions since their undefeated 2016-17 season right through to 2018, marking the American teams equal or higher than V/M more often than not (which is plain laughable). But I see a very disturbing and frightening pattern.

At 2017 Worlds SD, she placed V/M 5th. This is extremely notable because V/M set a new world record in this event at this competition, their strongest SD ever, and possibly one of the best ever, and totally obliterated the competition by more than 5+ points! They beat P/C by more than 5 points in this segment which is what helped V/M win their world title.

Here is how US ice dance judge Sharon ROGERS placed the skaters in the SD:

1) P/C
2) Chock/Bates (!)
3) H/D
4) Shibutanis )(tie with H/D)
...
5) V/M

This seems to be continuing a trend that she started back at 2017 4CC just a month earlier when she put V/M behind Chock/Bates and Shibutanis and tied them with H/D in the SD, and continued her undermarking of V/M in the FDs at both events, but perhaps slightly less stingy in order to escape being "outside the corridor". In the FD, she ranked 1) P/C, 2) Shibutanis so far ahead of every other team and essentially tied H/D and V/M despite H/D completely falling out of a twizzle and placing 10th in that segment.

At the 2018 Olympic Team Event, in the SD, Sharon ROGERS gave V/M low marks and Shibutanis the highest, and tied the Shibutanis for 1st place. She was the only judge NOT to put Shibutanis in 2nd after V/M (which, is purely biased and egregious).

The pattern I see is that she starts egregiously lowballing V/M at the start of the competition (V/M's biggest strength, the SD), and then when other judge's marks are much higher than hers that results in V/M placing 1st overall after the SD when all the results come in, she can adjust in the FD to escape being outside the corridor to avoid being sanctioned.

This is how Sharon ROGERS judged the FD at 2017 Four Continents. Her marks placed Shibutanis and C/B 1st and 2nd respectively, over V/M. What is notable is how her marks to Shibutanis were more than 8 points higher than V/M, and her marks for C/B were more than 6 points ahead of V/M.

Oh, we've known about Sharon Rogers for a long time. She's long been suspected of lowballing Virtue and Moir. Now that we can see how the judges scored, she can't hide behind anonimity.

 

[WineHerUp]

Sheesh.. not this bs again. Lol... figure skating is not a competition of 'skate of life' or 'passion' and 'desires'. Otherwise, Lenova and Radionova would have been the Russia champion MANY TIMES OVER!!! Or Spiderman would have beaten Chopin every bloomin' time.... esp more quads.

LOL this. Since when did we start handing out medals for exaggerated facial expressions? Sorry but getting a medal for merely emoting is asinine. And I don't really understand why people criticize Yuna for her "lifeless skating." She skated to a somber piece of music that required an understated and nuanced interpretation rather than a cheesy but spirited interpretation.

 

[xeyra]

Oh, we've known about Sharon Rogers for a long time. She's long been suspected of lowballing Virtue and Moir. Now that we can see how the judges scored, she can't hide behind anonimity.

Doesn't seem to get her any suspensions, though.

 

[yume]

Huh seems like i came to the wrong thread. There is so Yuna, Sochi, URs , Putin,etc. words......

 

[jenaj]

Yes she did. If she was the only judge at that competition, then the placements for the men's FS been: A medal for Vincent. No medal for Hanyu.

There is no way to justify the way she scored except for bland nationalistic bias. She was the ONLY judge out of all 9 judges to give Hanyu 2's in GOE on his 4S and 4T. Every other judge gave him 3. Whenever she could go down in GOE or PCS for Hanyu she did - while still staying within the corridor. Like Posters before have already said, there is basically 0% possibility that this happened per coincidence.

She and judge 5 also gave Hanyu the lowest PCS out of all judges. At the same time, she gave Nathan the highest PCs by FAR out of all 9 judges while going high with GOE as much as possible while staying in the corridor. So no, she isn't just generally strict or generally loose.

In the end, she scored Hanyu approx. 10 points less than the other judges. With your logic that she get investigated.
She scored Nathan 10 points more than the other judges. This also, with your logic should get investigated.
She scored Boyang 11 points less than the other judges. Again, with your logic, this should get investigated.

If this isn't national bias, I don't know what is.

She gave clearly Vincent the highest GOE out of all 9 judges. This in combination with her scoring Hanyu 10 points less than the average judge, lead to her placing Vincent above Hanyu.

But she wasn't the only judge at that competition. And the panel of judges has no ability to affect the base value of a skater's program.

 

[narcissa]

But she wasn't the only judge at that competition. And the panel of judges has no ability to affect the base value of a skater's program.

No.

But they affect GOE and PCS. Saying she didn't score Vincent over Yuzu is just mathematically incorrect. 199 > 192. Not much to argue about there.

So she scored his GOEs and PCS a lot lower than Hanyu's? Well, if you look at what they out on the ice, it deserved to be this way. And more. You can't just say "Hey, this judge gave Vincent 8.9 in PCS and Yuzu 9.0 in PCS, 8.9 is lower than 9.0, so there's nothing wrong with this picture!" That's just...not how scoring works.

 

[Danibellerika]

No.

But they affect GOE and PCS. Saying she didn't score Vincent over Yuzu is just mathematically incorrect. 199 > 192. Not much to argue about there.

So she scored his GOEs and PCS a lot lower than Hanyu's? Well, if you look at what they out on the ice, it deserved to be this way. And more. You can't just say "Hey, this judge gave Vincent 8.9 in PCS and Yuzu 9.0 in PCS, 8.9 is lower than 9.0, so there's nothing wrong with this picture!" That's just...not how scoring works.

Not how fair and unbiased scoring works anyway...

 

[chopinskate]

No.

But they affect GOE and PCS. Saying she didn't score Vincent over Yuzu is just mathematically incorrect. 199 > 192. Not much to argue about there.

So she scored his GOEs and PCS a lot lower than Hanyu's? Well, if you look at what they out on the ice, it deserved to be this way. And more. You can't just say "Hey, this judge gave Vincent 8.9 in PCS and Yuzu 9.0 in PCS, 8.9 is lower than 9.0, so there's nothing wrong with this picture!" That's just...not how scoring works.

The topic's been rehashed too many times, so I'll just ask this: If the US judge pushed Vincent ahead of Yuzuru just because of base value, then why didn't the rest of the judges also have Vincent ahead of Yuzuru based off that? It's not so simple, IMO.

 

[xeyra]

No.

But they affect GOE and PCS. Saying she didn't score Vincent over Yuzu is just mathematically incorrect. 199 > 192. Not much to argue about there.

So she scored his GOEs and PCS a lot lower than Hanyu's? Well, if you look at what they out on the ice, it deserved to be this way. And more. You can't just say "Hey, this judge gave Vincent 8.9 in PCS and Yuzu 9.0 in PCS, 8.9 is lower than 9.0, so there's nothing wrong with this picture!" That's just...not how scoring works.

Although he did receive a lot more GOE from the US judge than from any other judge, which can be indicative of bias, surprisingly the US judge wasn't actually the one to give Vincent the highest PCS (that was the Latvian and Russian judges!). The bias was a lot more noticeable in the way they scored Nathan in both GOE and PCS and how they underscored Yuzuru and Boyang, than in the way they scored Vincent.

 

[gkelly]

The topic's been rehashed too many times, so I'll just ask this: If the US judge pushed Vincent ahead of Yuzuru just because of base value, then why didn't the rest of the judges also have Vincent ahead of Yuzuru based off that? It's not so simple, IMO.

The tech panel calls and the scale of values and what each skater actually did on the ice gave Zhou a much higher base value than Hanyu. No judge had anything to do with the base value.

All the judges gave Hanyu higher GOEs and PCS than Zhou. Most of them gave Hanyu enough of an advantage in those areas that the GOEs and PCS outweighed the base value and therefore the total of the judges' scores plus the base values ended up higher for Hanyu.

This one judge gave less of difference between Hanyu's and Zhou's GOEs and PCS. It was still a pretty big difference in PCS, but unlike the other judges' scores the differences between this judge's scores for these two skaters ended up smaller than the large gap in base value. Therefore, this judge's scores for Zhou combined with his huge base value ended up adding up to more than her higher scores for Hanyu added to Hanyu's lower base value.

Since it's unlikely she was paying close attention to the math, it is unlikely that she knew exactly where her scores would combine with the base values (which she didn't know exactly) to place these two skaters relative to each other.

What we can say is that her scores for Zhou (and the other American men) were notably higher than the rest of the panel, and her scores for Hanyu were lower than the rest of the panel. That is a valid observation and may be worth investigating.

What we can't say is how she intended to rank the skaters taking into account not only her own scores but the (likely) base values. That is not the judges' job under IJS and requires too much mental arithmetic for any judge to manipulate with any accuracy.

Even looking only at GOEs plus PCS to come up with "rankings" for the judges' side of the scoring is not really meaningful and not something judges would be able to keep close track of over a whole event. But they would have a better general sense of who they scored higher and lower looking only at their own scores than they would trying to guess how their scores would combine with the base values. And it might give you a better sense of whose skating each judge "liked" best overall. (For this judge at the Olympics, her own highest scores went to Fernandez, for whatever that is worth.)

 

[jenaj]

No.

But they affect GOE and PCS. Saying she didn't score Vincent over Yuzu is just mathematically incorrect. 199 > 192. Not much to argue about there.

So she scored his GOEs and PCS a lot lower than Hanyu's? Well, if you look at what they out on the ice, it deserved to be this way. And more. You can't just say "Hey, this judge gave Vincent 8.9 in PCS and Yuzu 9.0 in PCS, 8.9 is lower than 9.0, so there's nothing wrong with this picture!" That's just...not how scoring works.

Her scores for Vincent add up to less than her scores for Hanyu. That is a mathematical fact.

 

[narcissa]

Her scores for Vincent add up to less than her scores for Hanyu. That is a mathematical fact.

How do you calculate her score without the base value? Are you just adding up the hard numbers on her GOE and PCS scores? Why would you even do that? That's not how figure skating scoring works. Sounds like you're stretching hard in order to argue semantics.

 

[gkelly]

The only reason to do that would be to see how she "ranked" the skaters in her own scoring.

It's not very meaningful, but it is more meaningful than adding her GOE and PCS scores to the base values to determine "rankings." Why would anyone do that?

I'm sure many judges are often surprised when the final results of a competition end up very different from the way they scored the GOEs and PCS. Even if they all agree with each other.

Suppose a unanimous whole panel of judges all give Susie their highest PCS+GOE, Sally second highest, and Sonja third highest. In terms of the areas where they are asked to evaluate, they all agree that Susie was best, Sally second best, and Sonja third. Would it make sense to say that they all ranked the skaters in that order? Not really, but at least it reflects their opinions about the relative strengths of those three skaters.

Now suppose Sonja has the highest base value and/or Sally and Susie have some deductions and some +REP jumps and some lower level calls on spins and steps and so Sonja ends up winning. In fact, if you add each judge's GOEs and PCS to the base values and subtract the deductions, the total for every single judge ends up with Sonja getting the highest segment total. Even though they all gave her their third highest scores.

So does it make sense to say that all those judges placed Sonja first?

Well, the WHOLE panel placed her first, including the tech panel and the referee. But none of the judges RANKED her first.

And if the places where Sonja earned higher base values and Sally and Susie lost points were less than obvious, there might be a lot of "How did that happen??" head scratching when the results were announced and curious perusal of the protocols afterward to figure out how.

So it's silly to talk about the individual judges ranking skaters based on their overall scores.

In non-unanimous events, individual judges whose scores combined with the base values produce a different overall order than the panel as a whole might be just as surprised at their own "rankings."

 

[narcissa]

It's not very meaningful, but it is more meaningful than adding her GOE and PCS scores to the base values to determine "rankings." Why would anyone do that?

I'm confused. Why isn't this meaningful? Isn't this how placements are determined? At every single skating competition?

Look, no one's saying that it's super duper meaningful to go "Vincent was scored higher than Yuzu and that's not allowed!!" it's just a baseline. Whereby things start to look a tad (understatement) suspicious from a first glance. For this particular competition. That's all.

 

[gkelly]

I'm confused. Why isn't this meaningful? Isn't this how placements are determined? At every single skating competition?

Yes when talking about individual judges under 6.0. Ranking skaters was their job then.

Yes, when we're talking about the input of both juding panel and tech panel plus the referee plus the rules and scale of values. That's the way the whole system works.

No when we're talking about individual judges. That's not what individual judges do now.

 

[narcissa]

Yes when talking about individual judges under 6.0. Ranking skaters was their job then.

Yes, when we're talking about the input of both juding panel and tech panel plus the referee plus the rules and scale of values. That's the way the whole system works.

No when we're talking about individual judges. That's not what individual judges do now.

According to this thread, ISU seems to disagree with you. Judges were suspended because their scores deviated too much compared to other judges.

Did Ms. Lorrie Parker know that she was going to place Vincent above Yuzu? Probably not, although I wouldn't be surprised if she had a gut feeling. She's an experienced judge after all. But no one's arguing that. AFAIK we were all arguing that her scores deviated so much from other judges -- and from expectation -- that Vincent ended up being placed above Yuzu. And that's what's wrong with the system and with her judging specifically.

Arguing that judges don't "rank" skaters is just being unnecessarily dense about semantics, IMO.

 

[jenaj]

How do you calculate her score without the base value? Are you just adding up the hard numbers on her GOE and PCS scores? Why would you even do that? That's not how figure skating scoring works. Sounds like you're stretching hard in order to argue semantics.

She had no effect on the base value. The base value isn't even known until the skater has skated and the technical panel has ruled. It is stretching to say a judge "placed" a skater higher if the base value is included.