USFSA vs. Weir?

[SeaniBu]

Well I hope he understands that.

 

[attyfan]

...

When discussing Evan`s marks that is obviously went on, since his skating alone certainly does not earn him the marks he gets. The thought of his skating actually meriting those kind of scores, with no federation involvement is laughable.

Just because the skating (in YOUR opinion) doesn't merit the scores doesn't mean there is any federation involvement. Like I said before -- the judges like GUTS; they always have and they always will. Examples of these include (but are not limited to) the silver given to Z/Z and bronze to S/Z at Olys; an injured Yags getting the silver at '01 Worlds when Eldredge was much better in the FS; and (possibly) the 6.0s given to Michelle at Worlds in '04 after the streakter (I say possibly, because those 6.0s could also be explained by the judges wanting to put Michelle ahead of Sasha, who got 5.9s over Shizuka (and I still don't understand that one) I notice that it is Lysacek himself who makes sure everyone knows about his guts -- not the federation.

 

[slutskayafan21]

So part of skating criteria now is to "show guts". Perhaps I need an updated ISU manuel. I guess I got it wrong all along, I thought skating was marked on the quality of jumps, spins, footwork, speed, edge quality, musical interpretation, choreography, ease of movement, style, variation of speed, and overall quality.
Now I see I am mistaken, skating judging is based on "guts" or "being macho" or
"skating after streakers". How silly of me to think skating was, and is stated in the rulebook to be judged on the "quality of your skating".

 

[Mathman]

Let the people judge!

I just Googled "Evan Lysacek guts" and got 146 references.

Then I tried "Johnny Weir guts" -- 34,300!

 

[attyfan]

So part of skating criteria now is to "show guts". Perhaps I need an updated ISU manuel. I guess I got it wrong all along, I thought skating was marked on the quality of jumps, spins, footwork, speed, edge quality, musical interpretation, choreography, ease of movement, style, variation of speed, and overall quality.
Now I see I am mistaken, skating judging is based on "guts" or "being macho" or
"skating after streakers". How silly of me to think skating was, and is stated in the rulebook to be judged on the "quality of your skating".

No, you don't need an updated manual. As I pointed out, "guts" has always increased the marks -- nothing has changed. After all, did you really think that the judges who were ignoring the rule book, stating that skaters should be judged on their skating, and instead were judging on other things ("guts" being one; reputation another; the whole "bloc judging"/SWR debates a third) were all of a sudden going to change?

 

[slutskayafan21]

No, you don't need an updated manual. As I pointed out, "guts" has always increased the marks -- nothing has changed. After all, did you really think that the judges who were ignoring the rule book, stating that skaters should be judged on their skating, and instead were judging on other things ("guts" being one; reputation another; the whole "bloc judging"/SWR debates a third) were all of a sudden going to change?

They should change, skating should be judged on......well why not try judging it on "skating". Maybe then it will make some semblance of sense to the casual fan who is watching it for the first time, who you would seemingly want to draw into the sport, no?

 

[Tonichelle]

I don't think you will ever get judges to just judge on the skating... personal preference will always play apart because it's part of human nature to do so

 

[attyfan]

They should change, skating should be judged on......well why not try judging it on "skating". Maybe then it will make some semblance of sense to the casual fan who is watching it for the first time, who you would seemingly want to draw into the sport, no?

First, as I understand it, one of the problems with the new system is that, under the guise of judging on the basis of "skating", they do too many big things that the casual fan can't understand -- like how skaters can fall twice and medal over skaters that are clean. Since most people -- casual fans, heavy fans, and commentators, --- are impressed by certain things, such as big jumps, great spirals and guts -- I think it is unrealistic to expect the judges to be different and ignore "guts", just that they don't ignore big jumps or great spirals. As Dick Button put it -- "they are people, just like us .. and what impresses us, impresses them" I think that "guts" is simply one of the things that qualifies as "giving the audience -- judges as well as spectators -- what it wants"

After all, considerably absent (IIRC) from US Nationals was any mention of Evan being injured or ill -- and he didn't win, did he? (I know he was overmarked, but once he was the reigning world bronze medalist, he was going to get some help anyway -- any any problems that the USFSA might have with Weir wouldn't be a factor at all). One day, Evan will go to an international event, healthy as a horse, and it will be interesting to see what happens then.

 

[slutskayafan21]

One day, Evan will go to an international event, healthy as a horse, and it will be interesting to see what happens then.

It wont make a difference, even with his gross overscoring he is reliant on others screwing up for his successes. If even one of Lambiel, Joubert, Buttle, or a more mature Oda, skate their best he wont win, and if atleast 3 of them do he wont medal.

Anyway Lambiel has had worse health problems than he had at the Olympics and Worlds. Plushenko has had chronic knee problems. Weir was less healthy than him at the Worlds. His health problems are nothing special and are vastly overhyped.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Didn't the Canadian Fed use a film of Buttle to demonstrate how PCS scores should be rated when CoP was in its demonstration phase? He automatically gets high PCS scores (based on the demo) whenever he skates competitions which he needs badly to get on the podium. Just wondering about that.

The Canadian Federation has control only over Canadian training and Canadian judges. That would translate into influence at Canadian Nationals.

It was the ISU that allowed a film of Buttle to be used to demonstrate what good choreography was, which was widely criticized, because they used an active competitor, which was seen to have influenced the judges.

 

[attyfan]

It wont make a difference, even with his gross overscoring he is reliant on others screwing up for his successes. If even one of Lambiel, Joubert, Buttle, or a more mature Oda, skate their best he wont win, and if atleast 3 of them do he wont medal.

Anyway Lambiel has had worse health problems than he had at the Olympics and Worlds. Plushenko has had chronic knee problems. Weir was less healthy than him at the Worlds. His health problems are nothing special and are vastly overhyped.

I agree that Evan's health problems and "courage" are overhyped, but I think it is Evan himself who is doing it, not the USFSA. The fact that the judges "fall for it" doesn't show that there is a alleged USFSA "plot" to advance Evan over Johnny. Instead, I think that
Evan is playing the game/role in a manner that advances his career; Johnny (IMO) is also playing a game/role -- that of the "persecuted independent" -- and if he wants to continue playing that part, he has to take the consequences. After all, I doubt that the USFSA is the only organization (or the Americans are the only judges) who might be the "conservative-type" that Johnny likes to scare. I am sure the international judges have plenty of conservatives, also.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It wont make a difference, even with his gross overscoring he is reliant on others screwing up for his successes. If even one of Lambiel, Joubert, Buttle, or a more mature Oda, skate their best he wont win, and if atleast 3 of them do he wont medal.

Anyway Lambiel has had worse health problems than he had at the Olympics and Worlds. Plushenko has had chronic knee problems. Weir was less healthy than him at the Worlds. His health problems are nothing special and are vastly overhyped.

You really are a one trick pony aren't you? Are there any threads that you don't turn into "Evan-is-EVIL-and-Overmarked" and/or "Everyone-hates-Stephan-and-the-whole-world-is-against-him". Chill out! Clearly there is something to be seen in Evan skating that you just don't see. Many fans (and the judges) do.

Why don't you just take a break from all this. Stephan hasn't lost to Evan in the two season's that Evan has been on the Senior level in international competitions and is now a multiple world champion as well as an Olympic Silver Medalist. Or are you just setting this all up so that if Stephan eventually loses to Evan you can freak out about it? At any rate, I don't see the point of all this considering Stephan's successes.

ETA: Sorry for contributing to the hijacking of this thread. The fact that a certain topic needs to be brought into every thread is bothering me. I am aware that continuing to ignore the situation is a better way to deal with it and will try to refrain from commenting and escalating the problem further.

 

[SeaniBu]

Lets all just take some deep breaths and I think it might help if "name calling" of other posters is refrained form. No sense of being "just as spiteful" or "one upping" someone else to state a point. I will say only for myself, that it didn't do any good to start a war by commenting negatively on someone else's personality, just makes others miss the real point. Entitle to your opinion, yes we all are. But the "name bashing" of particular posters is something the PM was invented for.

BTW, I totally agree with your counter point to slutskayafan21, but I have to admit it was more difficult to see when the "bombs going off."

 

[Tonichelle]

this is about Johnny vs the USFSA and I guess judges in a way

anything less than that is considered hijacking of the thread, and isn't needed...

if you don't agree with someone, or you feel they're out of line, just ignore them, don't give them your attention.

and with that, back to the TOPIC.

 

[Vash01]

I found the whole article rather silly; written by a quarter-baked (in FS) journalist (I won't even call him a half-baked journalist). I don't think it deserves a lot of attention, particularly to draw conclusions about the intent of the USFSA.

Vash