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eltamina
Guest
Time and space stood still
JMHO, an artist on the ice combines strong and frequent contrasts with smooth continuous flow. Some artists have contrast, but lack flow. Others have the flow but not much contrast. The best artists will give us moments in their skates where earth and space stand still, and time is suspended, and ceased to exist. Ms. Baby Ballerina is not an artist by my definition.
Beethoven's artistry embraced the contrast and flow well. On one hand, no or few other composer's music, which shows such great and frequent contrasts, has his kind of seamless, continuous flow (like a river) On the other hand, no or few other composer's music, which flows that continuously, has such strong, extreme, frequent contrasts within that flow.
Frequent contrast keeps us interested. Continuous flow, on the other hand, allows us to follow the music. With such continuous flow, we can effortlessly connect all the passages of the music from beginning to end. I think his exceedingly well known piano cto #5 the emperor demonstrated the contrast / flow well. In the first mvt, there area lot of contrast in keys, and concepts yet the musical thoughts flow seamlessly. The opening bars (just a few bars) of the second mvt is heavenly ethereal. For that short few seconds time and space stand still for the audience.
To me artistic skaters achieve all of the above, and if they can consistently land their elements in competitions over the years, they are called great champions.
JMHO, an artist on the ice combines strong and frequent contrasts with smooth continuous flow. Some artists have contrast, but lack flow. Others have the flow but not much contrast. The best artists will give us moments in their skates where earth and space stand still, and time is suspended, and ceased to exist. Ms. Baby Ballerina is not an artist by my definition.
Beethoven's artistry embraced the contrast and flow well. On one hand, no or few other composer's music, which shows such great and frequent contrasts, has his kind of seamless, continuous flow (like a river) On the other hand, no or few other composer's music, which flows that continuously, has such strong, extreme, frequent contrasts within that flow.
Frequent contrast keeps us interested. Continuous flow, on the other hand, allows us to follow the music. With such continuous flow, we can effortlessly connect all the passages of the music from beginning to end. I think his exceedingly well known piano cto #5 the emperor demonstrated the contrast / flow well. In the first mvt, there area lot of contrast in keys, and concepts yet the musical thoughts flow seamlessly. The opening bars (just a few bars) of the second mvt is heavenly ethereal. For that short few seconds time and space stand still for the audience.
To me artistic skaters achieve all of the above, and if they can consistently land their elements in competitions over the years, they are called great champions.
J
Joesitz
Guest
Re: Time and space stood still
Eltamina. ITA. There is nothing so boring as watching telegraphic jumps and going around in circles at the beginning of the program to get the difficult jumps out of the way.
There is an expectation of art involved in figure skating and the above mentioned just kills it.
Joe
Eltamina. ITA. There is nothing so boring as watching telegraphic jumps and going around in circles at the beginning of the program to get the difficult jumps out of the way.
There is an expectation of art involved in figure skating and the above mentioned just kills it.
Joe
M
mathman444
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It just ends up with certain people purposefully misinterpreting what others say so they can try to twist someone's valid, well-reasoned opinion into an irrational diss. "Over-muscled" movement and being muscular are not at all the same and as a physicist, I bet you know that--but as a Kwaniac, I realize things definitely go quantum. Besides, all the top ladies are ripped. Now if you say you like forced, tense, and incomplete movement, well, that's a religious thing...Edited because I was tired and cranky when I first wrote this" -- Rgirl[/quote]I think I'm glad that I didn't see the unedited version.:lol: Well, I can't speak for all Kwaniacs, but when I pretend to misunderstand your analysis of the technical aspects of Michelle's skating, please know that this is my feeble attempt at a joke, not a diss. OK, not funny. Sorry.
Do I like forced, tense and incomplete movement? Hmmm. Well, if it's <em>Michelle's</em> forced, tense and incomplete mevement...JUST KIDDING!!!!!
Mathman
PS. I'm biting my tongue over "...as a Kwaniac, I...":lol:
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It just ends up with certain people purposefully misinterpreting what others say so they can try to twist someone's valid, well-reasoned opinion into an irrational diss. "Over-muscled" movement and being muscular are not at all the same and as a physicist, I bet you know that--but as a Kwaniac, I realize things definitely go quantum. Besides, all the top ladies are ripped. Now if you say you like forced, tense, and incomplete movement, well, that's a religious thing...Edited because I was tired and cranky when I first wrote this" -- Rgirl[/quote]I think I'm glad that I didn't see the unedited version.:lol: Well, I can't speak for all Kwaniacs, but when I pretend to misunderstand your analysis of the technical aspects of Michelle's skating, please know that this is my feeble attempt at a joke, not a diss. OK, not funny. Sorry.
Do I like forced, tense and incomplete movement? Hmmm. Well, if it's <em>Michelle's</em> forced, tense and incomplete mevement...JUST KIDDING!!!!!
Mathman
PS. I'm biting my tongue over "...as a Kwaniac, I...":lol:
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
J
Joesitz
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
Mathman - Do you realize that some posters are still on Michelle's case about the technical? After 8 years they are still at it. What did this poor lady ever do to them?
Joe
Mathman - Do you realize that some posters are still on Michelle's case about the technical? After 8 years they are still at it. What did this poor lady ever do to them?
Joe
S
Show 42
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
........."I don't know if it is maturity, getting the right choreography, mentally and emotionally loosening up, finding peace in herself, or what, but with "The Feeling Begins" and "Aranjuez" at Nationals (didn't see it in her performances at Campbell's or Skate America) that Michelle took an enormous step in finding the process that allows her to move with her own sense of grace and emotion from within. I find this Michelle compelling to watch and a skater who has the potential to speak to my heart."
RGirl, sit down and hold onto something stable, because even though I am a huge Kwan fan, I actually agree with your above post....42
........."I don't know if it is maturity, getting the right choreography, mentally and emotionally loosening up, finding peace in herself, or what, but with "The Feeling Begins" and "Aranjuez" at Nationals (didn't see it in her performances at Campbell's or Skate America) that Michelle took an enormous step in finding the process that allows her to move with her own sense of grace and emotion from within. I find this Michelle compelling to watch and a skater who has the potential to speak to my heart."
RGirl, sit down and hold onto something stable, because even though I am a huge Kwan fan, I actually agree with your above post....42
R
rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post--According to Joe
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Mathman - Do you realize that some posters are still on Michelle's case about the technical? After 8 years they are still at it. What did this poor lady ever do to them?[/quote] Joe,
I assume you're referring to my posts. Once again, you have demonstrated your incredible talent for missing the point. And as usual when it comes to anything you perceive as negative toward Michelle, whether it is or not, you have to try to get in little digs ("What did this poor lady ever do to them?"). The point was to analyze the differences between the way Michelle moved before and the way she moves now, which I consider to be an enormous improvement. Shine said, "I still can't understand the big difference between the levels of RV and SOTBS," so I tried to address that issue from my POV. I intended the post as a compliment to Michelle's hard work and determination. You can't analyze how someone's improved without noting the problems they had before. Apparently since I'm not a card-carrying Kwaniac, you and certain others assume that unless I'm gushing about Michelle I'm attacking her. I guess in your world it's verboten to have the opinion that Michelle was or is ever anything less than perfect. So in your world any analysis of Michelle's skating that regards it as less than the greatest skating ever is just someone "getting on Michelle's case." If you're not interested in a discussion about how someone's skating has improved, fine; that's your prerogative. But why always diss them for it if it's about Michelle? I find it interesting that no one was concerned with what I had to say about Sasha and Sarah; only Michelle. The topic was responses to skaters, so I discussed my responses to the three top US ladies. Sorry to be blunt, Joe, but I find your attitude very negative and narrow-minded.
Rgirl
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Mathman - Do you realize that some posters are still on Michelle's case about the technical? After 8 years they are still at it. What did this poor lady ever do to them?[/quote] Joe,
I assume you're referring to my posts. Once again, you have demonstrated your incredible talent for missing the point. And as usual when it comes to anything you perceive as negative toward Michelle, whether it is or not, you have to try to get in little digs ("What did this poor lady ever do to them?"). The point was to analyze the differences between the way Michelle moved before and the way she moves now, which I consider to be an enormous improvement. Shine said, "I still can't understand the big difference between the levels of RV and SOTBS," so I tried to address that issue from my POV. I intended the post as a compliment to Michelle's hard work and determination. You can't analyze how someone's improved without noting the problems they had before. Apparently since I'm not a card-carrying Kwaniac, you and certain others assume that unless I'm gushing about Michelle I'm attacking her. I guess in your world it's verboten to have the opinion that Michelle was or is ever anything less than perfect. So in your world any analysis of Michelle's skating that regards it as less than the greatest skating ever is just someone "getting on Michelle's case." If you're not interested in a discussion about how someone's skating has improved, fine; that's your prerogative. But why always diss them for it if it's about Michelle? I find it interesting that no one was concerned with what I had to say about Sasha and Sarah; only Michelle. The topic was responses to skaters, so I discussed my responses to the three top US ladies. Sorry to be blunt, Joe, but I find your attitude very negative and narrow-minded.
Rgirl
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
Show,
Thanks for reading my post for what it was intended to be. I would say I appreciate it, but that would imply you were doing me some kind of favor, when actually you are just being yourself. Then I'll say I appreciate you being you
By the way, did anybody notice that I also talked about Sasha and Sarah? Or is a post only provocative (according to Joe) if one doesn't gush about Michelle?
Rgirl
Show,
Thanks for reading my post for what it was intended to be. I would say I appreciate it, but that would imply you were doing me some kind of favor, when actually you are just being yourself. Then I'll say I appreciate you being you
By the way, did anybody notice that I also talked about Sasha and Sarah? Or is a post only provocative (according to Joe) if one doesn't gush about Michelle?
Rgirl
R
rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
Mathman,
I guess you didn't see that I was joking back.
Rgirl
Mathman,
I guess you didn't see that I was joking back.
Rgirl
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Linny
Guest
Horses
Horses do, actually, bring home Olympic and World medals. Oh, I know, they hang the medal around the rider's neck, but there is a teamwork element, animal and human, that makes the horse an integral part of winning the championship.
And to say that someone skates like a horse isn't exactly an insult. Ever see the dancing white horses of Lippanza? Their feet hardly touch the ground.
Linny
Horses do, actually, bring home Olympic and World medals. Oh, I know, they hang the medal around the rider's neck, but there is a teamwork element, animal and human, that makes the horse an integral part of winning the championship.
And to say that someone skates like a horse isn't exactly an insult. Ever see the dancing white horses of Lippanza? Their feet hardly touch the ground.
Linny
J
Joesitz
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post--According to Joe
rGirl - It's ok that you got back to me. I deserve it. It was a dig and it should not have been. For the past couple of months MK has been out of the picture on Golden Skate and I find it refreshing. I do not see any point in praising her or nitpicking her. She will either win or lose but nothing will change. IMO, she is at her peak in artistry and that's where she should be. As for praising or finding faults, I could live without reading or hearing both. I've read and heard them all.
It's competition time again. The big one for the year. People, no matter, how much they say 'they just love skating and may the best man win', do indeed have preferences. And why not? So tensions build. If one remembers around the Olys, the forum was getting hot but soon to cool down (Cole Porter?).
rGirl - Sorry again for the post. I believe I was in such a pleasant mood for several weeks that MK was not getting the posts she usually gets either pro or con. I like it.
Joe
rGirl - It's ok that you got back to me. I deserve it. It was a dig and it should not have been. For the past couple of months MK has been out of the picture on Golden Skate and I find it refreshing. I do not see any point in praising her or nitpicking her. She will either win or lose but nothing will change. IMO, she is at her peak in artistry and that's where she should be. As for praising or finding faults, I could live without reading or hearing both. I've read and heard them all.
It's competition time again. The big one for the year. People, no matter, how much they say 'they just love skating and may the best man win', do indeed have preferences. And why not? So tensions build. If one remembers around the Olys, the forum was getting hot but soon to cool down (Cole Porter?).
rGirl - Sorry again for the post. I believe I was in such a pleasant mood for several weeks that MK was not getting the posts she usually gets either pro or con. I like it.
Joe
M
mathman444
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
Rgirl, about joking back. Yeah, I did see that, sort of. (As usual, too hip for the room.) But jokes also have a bite, or at least an underlying point. What I was appologizing for (or at least what it now seems clear that I should have been appologizing for)
oops, sorry -- I hit enter instead of spellcheck.
What I was <em>apologizing</em> for was seeming to blow off your careful and seriously intended analyses by wrapping my response in a joke. Sorry. I really do (although you'd never guess it from my faux Kwaniac posts) like to hear your take on both the technical and artistic qualities of Michelle's skating.
Mathman
Rgirl, about joking back. Yeah, I did see that, sort of. (As usual, too hip for the room.) But jokes also have a bite, or at least an underlying point. What I was appologizing for (or at least what it now seems clear that I should have been appologizing for)
oops, sorry -- I hit enter instead of spellcheck.
What I was <em>apologizing</em> for was seeming to blow off your careful and seriously intended analyses by wrapping my response in a joke. Sorry. I really do (although you'd never guess it from my faux Kwaniac posts) like to hear your take on both the technical and artistic qualities of Michelle's skating.
Mathman
R
rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post--According to Joe
Thanks, Joe. I can understand someone who loves Michelle's skating to the max getting sick of people analyzing her. But for me, this was a year of big changes in Michelle's skating. I'd been thinking about what it was that made the difference and this thread afforded me the opportunity to put it into words. Also, to me, Michelle was discussed in the forum only a little less than usual (ie, the thread about her layback spin, etc) because she hasn't been competing.
Anyway, I really appreciate you saying that it was a dig and apologizing for it. IMO, that's a mark of great character (not that I'm any expert:lol: ). Seriously, just don't mean to sound condescending. Now I want to delete every other thing I took you to task for on another subject
As I write this I hear we are officially at war, so all this might not matter anyway. But again, I do appreciate acknowledging the dig and explaining why. It's the kind of communcation that leads to understanding, which has often seemed to elude our discussions before. Hearing your explanation will help me be more sensitive in the future to the fact that others may feel the same as you. Since you mentioned Charlie Brown: You're a good man, Joesitz.
Rgirl (Knowing you will probably want to kill me soon for other reasons...:x )
Thanks, Joe. I can understand someone who loves Michelle's skating to the max getting sick of people analyzing her. But for me, this was a year of big changes in Michelle's skating. I'd been thinking about what it was that made the difference and this thread afforded me the opportunity to put it into words. Also, to me, Michelle was discussed in the forum only a little less than usual (ie, the thread about her layback spin, etc) because she hasn't been competing.
Anyway, I really appreciate you saying that it was a dig and apologizing for it. IMO, that's a mark of great character (not that I'm any expert:lol: ). Seriously, just don't mean to sound condescending. Now I want to delete every other thing I took you to task for on another subject
As I write this I hear we are officially at war, so all this might not matter anyway. But again, I do appreciate acknowledging the dig and explaining why. It's the kind of communcation that leads to understanding, which has often seemed to elude our discussions before. Hearing your explanation will help me be more sensitive in the future to the fact that others may feel the same as you. Since you mentioned Charlie Brown: You're a good man, Joesitz.Rgirl (Knowing you will probably want to kill me soon for other reasons...:x )
R
rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I was apologizing for was seeming to blow off your careful and seriously intended analyses by wrapping my response in a joke.[/quote] Thanks, Mathman. That sentence sums it up extremely well. I know I've been guilty of doing the same thing, often without meaning to, but sometimes I know there's that little:evil: on my shoulder saying, "Come on, you can get a little dig in there. Go ahead! It's a joke! You can always plead humor." But what you say is very true. It's like that line where good-natured teasing becomes teasing to be hurtful. Sometimes you don't know that you've crossed it until it's too late.
Anyway, I very much appreciate your honesty about this. The thing that was frustrating for me was that I felt like, "Geez, even when I write about why I think Michelle was so good this year, I still get dissed." So thanks for saying what you did.
Of course now we've got a whole other fight going on another thread:lol: Must be something in the air:smokin:
Rgirl
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I was apologizing for was seeming to blow off your careful and seriously intended analyses by wrapping my response in a joke.[/quote] Thanks, Mathman. That sentence sums it up extremely well. I know I've been guilty of doing the same thing, often without meaning to, but sometimes I know there's that little:evil: on my shoulder saying, "Come on, you can get a little dig in there. Go ahead! It's a joke! You can always plead humor." But what you say is very true. It's like that line where good-natured teasing becomes teasing to be hurtful. Sometimes you don't know that you've crossed it until it's too late.
Anyway, I very much appreciate your honesty about this. The thing that was frustrating for me was that I felt like, "Geez, even when I write about why I think Michelle was so good this year, I still get dissed." So thanks for saying what you did.
Of course now we've got a whole other fight going on another thread:lol: Must be something in the air:smokin:
Rgirl
D
DORISPULASKI
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
rgirl and Joe, Maybe War is just in the air and we're catching along with the rest of the country. As for me, I have saved being objectionable for le cafe, where I am being very objectionable about the war.
Glad to be on the edge, reading about the little perfect world of skating.
dpp
rgirl and Joe, Maybe War is just in the air and we're catching along with the rest of the country. As for me, I have saved being objectionable for le cafe, where I am being very objectionable about the war.
Glad to be on the edge, reading about the little perfect world of skating.
dpp
J
Joesitz
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
rGirl - Comment nous parlons en Francaise: <strong>D'accord. </strong> I think I got that right or maybe a nice Quebecan can edit me.
Joe
rGirl - Comment nous parlons en Francaise: <strong>D'accord. </strong> I think I got that right or maybe a nice Quebecan can edit me.
Joe
R
rgirl181
Guest
Re: Very Provocative Post
Joe,
<em>Oui, d'accord.</em>
Rgirl
PS Saw ITNY this morning. Loved it!
Joe,
<em>Oui, d'accord.</em>
Rgirl
PS Saw ITNY this morning. Loved it!
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